9/11 truth needs to join up with other movements for peace, justice and sanity in a people power movement that will be global and which will sweep the powers that be (PTB) from power and herald a new dawn. Enough of this bs we are constantly being fed.
For me a lot of religion falls into the bs category, but not all. The core messages of love, peace, unity and simple messages like 'we are our brothers keeper' and 'treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves' resonate with around the world and with people who have faith and no faith and who are just plain confused and don't mind admitting it.
It stands to reason that if we are to build a global peace movement strong enough to sweep the PTB from power it will need to be inclusive and embrace people of all faiths, to unite around core human values and tolerance. Only then can we bring the games of the PTB to an end and heal the religious divisions the PTB have set in place.
Religious 'fundamentalism', intolerance and dogma are definately a tool of the PTB. A clash of religion is fundamental to understanding the PTB's game plan and so should be discussed on forums like this. It is also why initiatives like MUJCA are so important.
It is my belief that we are fundamentally spiritual beings and this journey and struggle for truth and justice is as much spiritual one as it is a political one. But that just my take. Whether you believe in or find meaning in the word God or you don't, all are welcome here.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:37 am Post subject:
blackcat wrote:
Quote:
Which you define as "not having belief in God": well theres four prime candidates: but they had no belief in God, by their own statement, yet certainly imposed.
What a fatuous and silly argument you pose. The people who have "answers", throughout history, usually those who know what "God" wanted, are replaced by people like Stalin and Mao, and that is supposed to make anyone who refutes ANY of the former, are somehow in bed with the latter who are in fact EXACTLY the same ie people who KNOW THE ANSWER!!!! They are ALL the same. There is no answer. That is what an Atheist is all about.
So the leaders of communism weren’t "proper" atheists: if an atheist is a psychopathic murderer of any kind, they don't count: its only atheists who behave themselves that are the proper example. Yet if someone is religious, even in the slightest, and commits evil, they do count: despite the fact that the vast majority of people with a religious faith lead ethical lives
Its not my argument that is fatuous or silly: its yours. Beneath the surface, it is a child’s argument of "if only everyone in the world was like me". And that way leads to nightmares, because sooner or later some demagogue comes along and says "follow me: and I will make everyone like you, or get rid of those that aren’t", and then we have another Hitler, another tyrant. Its embracing diversity that counts, not prattling on about imposition whilst only holding one way to be valid
Quote:
Despite all the huffing and puffing i notice one thing, yet again not one shred of evidence to back up the hocus pocus of religions.
perhaps it would be better to produce some evidence for a 'god' etc? in fact how about that one teeny weeny shred of evidence?
Well Long Tooth, perhaps you haven’t found proof that there is, but that is not proof that there isn’t: and it depends on what you would be prepared to accept as proof anyway. And when we come to realise that the whole world is a re-creation of electrical signals inside our brains, the whole notion of empirical proof becomes far less certain anyway: ultimately there is only one proof, and that is a choice. "God" can get along very nicely without the belief of atheists: but atheism cannot survive an encounter with "God". Yet one thing is certain: anyone not looking for "God": is unlikely to ever find him: because not looking is also a choice _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
[quote="Long Tooth"]Despite all the huffing and puffing i notice one thing, yet again not one shred of evidence to back up the hocus pocus of religions.
perhaps it would be better to produce some evidence for a 'god' etc? in fact how about that one teeny weeny shred of evidence?
Most genuine posters on here base their 'belief' that 9/11 was not an act done by those the authories claim, why, because of evidence/anomilies.
why does this rationale not count when talking about 'modern' created/invented religions?
How can these 3 modern religions just turn up a mere thousands of years ago? why no mention of them thousands of years before? the people who cling to christianity/judaism and islam have no clue when or how these scams were created/invented.
I am willing to accept 'god' exists when i see the single shred of evidence, until then i am entitled to my opinion its a hoax, and its only my opinion but without evidence to the contrary what other conclusion can one come to.
It wasant that long ago that a lightning bolt was seen as gods anger bringing wrath onto the baddies.
god created the universe. or god created the earth etc the blind faithers peddle, well er ok if you say so, so who created god?
never ever have i known any subject as religion become so rampant on not one shred of evidence, thats why its known as BLIND FAITH. Its the single largest factor in gaining control of masses of people, so simple yet so effective, the reason why people such as blackcat and i become so scorning over my gods better than your god lingo is we have had decades of waiting in vain for that one shred of evidence, judging by the responses on here we will have to wait decades more, along with billions of others around the world for that one shred. talk about conspiracy theories, this must be the biggest conspiracy theory ever peddled without one shred to back up the claims of 'modern' religions.
Thats why i feel when 'god' or religion gets brought into 9/11 its time we gave up.[/quote
I prayed I would be surrounded by pointless theological debate. I rest my case. _________________ "It's called the American Dream, because you have to be alseep to believe it"
So the leaders of communism weren’t "proper" atheists: if an atheist is a psychopathic murderer of any kind, they don't count: its only atheists who behave themselves that are the proper example. Yet if someone is religious, even in the slightest, and commits evil, they do count: despite the fact that the vast majority of people with a religious faith lead ethical lives
Its not my argument that is fatuous or silly: its yours. Beneath the surface, it is a child’s argument of "if only everyone in the world was like me". And that way leads to nightmares, because sooner or later some demagogue comes along and says "follow me: and I will make everyone like you, or get rid of those that aren’t", and then we have another Hitler, another tyrant. Its embracing diversity that counts, not prattling on about imposition whilst only holding one way to be valid
I do not know if the leaders of Communism were "proper" Atheists or not. I do not see that Atheism was the drive that made them evil any more than I deduce that Hitler's devout Christianity was what motivated him to commit his evil. He did not do what he did in the name of Christianity, unlike a number of tyrants who preceded him. In the same way I do not believe that Atheism was the force behind Communism either. It is ridiculous to suggest I infer that Atheists who behave themselves are the "proper example" or that I am unaware that most god-believers behave. That is the most stupid of all the non-sequitors I have read coming from the "believers" who have posted here. As for holding that only one way is valid - I clearly stated that the UK allows all forms of religion and I am quite happy that bigots should be allowed to be bigots. It is when they try to impose thier system on me that I object and I would feel the same about Communism.
Quote:
Beneath the surface, it is a child’s argument of "if only everyone in the world was like me".
Fantastic! I am saying exactly the opposite. Can you read??? I said
Quote:
[A society like ours in the UK allows for any religion to practise openly and alows for non-believers too. There are no equivalents to the Blasphemy laws or the Sharia in the world of the non-believer but secularists have constantly to be on their guard against God-believers of whatever persuasion, less hard won freedoms are eroded in the name of God.
I then went on to describe some ways that God-belivers tried to impose their ways on society at large and you have ignored my remarks. Hmmm??? It is god-believers religions who are trying to make everyone act the same and if some tyrants try to remove the infection of religion by behaving in precisely the same manner as the religious tyrants then it has nothing to do with God and everything to do with opportunism. I am trying to say that people should be allowed to believe what they wish and act with as few restrictions on their freedom as possible. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Communism and a whole host of "ism"s try to control and restrict people so that a few privileged people can coin it in at their expense.
To say I only hold one way to be valid is the most ludicrous statement you have made when I clearly detest that sentiment which is at the core of all religions. Can you read??? Or does you infatuation with God blind you to other points of view as is the case with most God-believers? To not believe in God is NOT a belief system and is NOT a wish to impose any belief on anyone.
Quote:
sooner or later some demagogue comes along and says "follow me: and I will make everyone like you, or get rid of those that aren’t", and then we have another Hitler
What has that to do with belief or non-belief in God?? Are you suggesting Religion will save us from this?? Or are you saying that it is inevitable that it will happen if you do not believe in God? What makes you think that someone who does not believe in God will follow someone like Hitler, a devout Catholic??
Last edited by blackcat on Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:39 am; edited 1 time in total
The thread moved onto whether it is acceptable to harrange someone else because they believe something different to you, and as far as blackcat was concerned, of course it is,
Can you show me where I said that please? Not your interpretation of what I said but where I said it. I do not believe it is acceptable to harangue someone because they believe something different to you and I think anyone who "interprets" my words to mean that is either devious or stupid. Which are you Stefan?
I do not know if the leaders of Communism were "proper" Atheists or not. I do not see that Atheism was the drive that made them evil any more than I deduce that Hitler's devout Christianity was what motivated him to commit his evil. He did not do what he did in the name of Christianity, unlike a number of tyrants who preceded him. In the same way I do not believe that Atheism was the force behind Communism either.
Let me correct you. Communism as invented by Karl Marx was based on the Kibbutz system. Communism as practiced by the chinese, pol pot, north korea, soviet union, was control and total enslavement of the populations. Suppression of religion was simply to exercise total control and remove the control execised in competition by religions.
EG Albania banned beards which were seen as a muslim symbol.
Communism is total enslavement.
Where did you hear Hitler was a devout christian. His birth father was Jewish although he was raised by his catholic mother. And he believed in the works of Charles Darwin. Hitler operated under the direction of the origin of species which is well documented.
Hitler wanted to create the master race even though he was not part of it.
He saw other races as sub human and that is why he treated humans as though they were animals.
Dont confuse the support of the catholic church for hitler and the financial assistance the vatican gave to him to suggest he was a catholic
Hitler was raised by Roman Catholic parents, but as a school boy he rejected Catholicism as he was influenced by nationalism. Apparently, after Hitler left home, he never attended Mass or received the sacraments.
In later life, Hitler's religious beliefs present a discrepant picture; publicly he often spoke positively of the Christian heritage of German culture and of belief in Christ. Hitler’s private statements, as reported by his intimates, are more mixed, showing Hitler as a religious man but also critical of Christianity. However, in contrast to other Nazi leaders, Hitler did not adhere to esoteric ideas, occultism, or neo-paganism and ridiculed such beliefs in his book Mein Kampf.
Hitler was the product of belief in DARWINISM
(Unfortunately his hatred of Jews came from his hatred of his birth father who had mistreated his mother and had aparantly killed hitler's siblings.
But this is speculation/hearsay.)
Had Hitler been religious i am sure he would not have killed so many people if any.
Let me correct you. Communism as invented by Karl Marx was based on the Kibbutz system. Communism as practiced by the chinese, pol pot, north korea, soviet union, was control and total enslavement of the populations. Suppression of religion was simply to exercise total control and remove the control execised in competition by religions.
EG Albania banned beards which were seen as a muslim symbol.
Communism is total enslavement.
I agree. It has nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God and everything to do with control of the masses by a few.
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Where did you hear Hitler was a devout christian.
From historical records.
Quote:
His father was Jewish
That's news to me.
Quote:
And he believed in the works of Charles Darwin.
As did millions of Christians then and do now.
Quote:
Hitler wanted to create the master race even though he was not part of it.
He saw other races as sub human and that is why he treated humans as though they were animals.
As did Churchill. There were many high profile figures at that time who believed in "Eugenics".
Quote:
Dont confuse the support of the catholic church for hitler and the financial assistance the vatican gave to him to suggest he was a catholic
I do not. I said above that his religion was not what drove him to act the way he did, though many will disagree. He used it as an excuse for some actions but otherwise it was irrelevant. Like Atheism was irrelevant to Communism. There were a multitude of reasons why Germany became what it did under Hitler. He was nonetheless a devout Catholic. http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/back/hitler.html
Quote:
You will find it in Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."
Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."
In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."
Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941.
Hitler's father was born illegitimate. But more than that his mum was at the time working for a Austrian Jewish family Leopold Frankenberger who had a frisky 19 year teenage son who it is believed is Adolf's grandfather.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Hitler
the further proof of this is the family paid her money after she moved on
Hitler's father was his mother's uncle. They had to be given dispensation from the pope to marry. The father beat the mother and the siblings. Mostly he used his voice to lash out and hurt or humiliate, but some sources claim he beat young Adolf Hitler with a hippopotamus whip. Alois wanted his son to similarly seek a career in the civil service. However, Adolf had become so alienated from his father that he was repulsed by whatever Alois wanted. Where his father glorified the role of the civil servant, Adolf sneered at the thought of a lifetime spent enforcing petty rules. Alois tried to browbeat his son into obedience while Adolf did his best to be the opposite of whatever his father wanted. While Alois imagined his son as a practical, non-religious, non-political, sensible, realistic, stable and industrious civil servant, Adolf became lazy, romantic, idealistic and fantasy-oriented. He hated his father and knowing hiss father was partly jewish may have triggered Hitler's later actions.
Hitler was NOT a catholic. read my previous post or do some research. _________________
Last edited by karlos on Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:16 am Post subject:
blackcat wrote:
Quote:
So the leaders of communism weren’t "proper" atheists: if an atheist is a psychopathic murderer of any kind, they don't count: its only atheists who behave themselves that are the proper example. Yet if someone is religious, even in the slightest, and commits evil, they do count: despite the fact that the vast majority of people with a religious faith lead ethical lives
Its not my argument that is fatuous or silly: its yours. Beneath the surface, it is a child’s argument of "if only everyone in the world was like me". And that way leads to nightmares, because sooner or later some demagogue comes along and says "follow me: and I will make everyone like you, or get rid of those that aren’t", and then we have another Hitler, another tyrant. Its embracing diversity that counts, not prattling on about imposition whilst only holding one way to be valid
I do not know if the leaders of Communism were "proper" Atheists or not. I do not see that Atheism was the drive that made them evil any more than I deduce that Hitler's devout Christianity was what motivated him to commit his evil. He did not do what he did in the name of Christianity, unlike a number of tyrants who preceded him. In the same way I do not believe that Atheism was the force behind Communism either. It is ridiculous to suggest I infer that Atheists who behave themselves are the "proper example" or that I am unaware that most god-believers behave. That is the most stupid of all the non-sequitors I have read coming from the "believers" who have posted here. As for holding that only one way is valid - I clearly stated that the UK allows all forms of religion and I am quite happy that bigots should be allowed to be bigots. It is when they try to impose thier system on me that I object and I would feel the same about Communism.
Quote:
Beneath the surface, it is a child’s argument of "if only everyone in the world was like me".
Fantastic! I am saying exactly the opposite. Can you read??? I said
Quote:
[A society like ours in the UK allows for any religion to practise openly and alows for non-believers too. There are no equivalents to the Blasphemy laws or the Sharia in the world of the non-believer but secularists have constantly to be on their guard against God-believers of whatever persuasion, less hard won freedoms are eroded in the name of God.
I then went on to describe some ways that God-belivers tried to impose their ways on society at large and you have ignored my remarks. Hmmm??? It is god-believers religions who are trying to make everyone act the same and if some tyrants try to remove the infection of religion by behaving in precisely the same manner as the religious tyrants then it has nothing to do with God and everything to do with opportunism. I am trying to say that people should be allowed to believe what they wish and act with as few restrictions on their freedom as possible. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Communism and a whole host of "ism"s try to control and restrict people so that a few privileged people can coin it in at their expense.
To say I only hold one way to be valid is the most ludicrous statement you have made when I clearly detest that sentiment which is at the core of all religions. Can you read??? Or does you infatuation with God blind you to other points of view as is the case with most God-believers? To not believe in God is NOT a belief system and is NOT a wish to impose any belief on anyone.
Quote:
sooner or later some demagogue comes along and says "follow me: and I will make everyone like you, or get rid of those that aren’t", and then we have another Hitler
What has that to do with belief or non-belief in God?? Are you suggesting Religion will save us from this?? Or are you saying that it is inevitable that it will happen if you do not believe in God? What makes you think that someone who does not believe in God will follow someone like Hitler, a devout Catholic??
TBH its a little confusing to work out exactly what you mean, theres a degree of pastafarian wobble in your posting: but it is a dead certainity that you mean having a belief system = cause of imposition. I'm trying to get you to see that although religion is a type of belief system, it is not the cause of belief systems: but your belief system will not let you acknowledge that. Which is quite hilarious _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Why should I care? I do not believe he was a vegetarian but it matters not one jot. It matters not one jot that he was a Catholic either. I am not on the same team and neither are you. The fact Hitler was European, white, human, dark haired or a multitude of other things that I am does not mean I am connected in any way to him or his actions.
Quote:
Hitler was NOT a catholic. read my previous post or do some research.
Hitler WAS a Catholic. Read my previous post or do some research yourself. Above all do not be in any way offended just because it may be your religion. No blame by association applies because his religion is irrelevant to his actions, indeed his behaviour proves that in any meaningful way he was not a follower of Christ. I wish I had a fiver for every * I have met who behaves in the most unChristian way but goes to church and goes through all the motions.
I'm trying to get you to see that although religion is a type of belief system, it is not the cause of belief systems: but your belief system will not let you acknowledge that. Which is quite hilarious
Glad to bring a chuckle to your chops!
I never said/thought religion was a cause of belief systems. My "belief system" clearly does not prevent me from acknowledging it as I do acknowledge it. My point of view is that people's need for certainty or answers has led them to be exploited by Religions which provide them with what they need. The leaders are corrupt and use religion to control and keep power and wealth. Religious wars are one way they have exploited this power and forcing populations to behave in a prescribed manner is part of their control. Refusing to be roboticised has been the death of millions. The Earth orbits the sun?? Blasphemy!!! Punish him!!
Cartoons of the Prophet in a Danish newspaper - Kill Kill Kill!!!
My point is they have not gone away in the west and are constantly trying to reclaim that power and force a way of behaving on people who do not agree with their beliefs. My position is one of defence not offence. I have no wish to impose anything on anyone. People should be free to believe what they want. You want to believe in Christ that's your business - you want to make me treat Sunday as sacred and prevent me from shopping you make it my business. I say if you want to treat Sunday as sacred then do so and abstain from shopping but leave me out of it.
Despite all the huffing and puffing i notice one thing, yet again not one shred of evidence to back up the hocus pocus of religions.
perhaps it would be better to produce some evidence for a 'god' etc? in fact how about that one teeny weeny shred of evidence?
Well Long Tooth, perhaps you haven’t found proof that there is, but that is not proof that there isn’t: and it depends on what you would be prepared to accept as proof anyway. And when we come to realise that the whole world is a re-creation of electrical signals inside our brains, the whole notion of empirical proof becomes far less certain anyway: ultimately there is only one proof, and that is a choice. "God" can get along very nicely without the belief of atheists: but atheism cannot survive an encounter with "God". Yet one thing is certain: anyone not looking for "God": is unlikely to ever find him: because not looking is also a choice
I havant found a shred of proof that christianity,judaism and islam are not hoaxes, on the contrary theres mountains upon mountains of evidence that the three 'great' 'modern' invented/created religions are false flags.
I havant found any proof that at the centre of the moons core it is made out of cheese, so i discount that. The same for christianity,islam and judaism. It all comes down to the same old tired arguments put forward by the religious masses, ''just trust us'' have some blind faith. when people regurgatate those words regarding religions, theres a false flag perpetuating the brainwashing.
No doubt if the creators/inventors of the santa claus myth hadant owned up that it was a hoax, we'd have the same religious blind faithers peddling the story along the same lines of the bible,god,jesus fables centuries later.
The three most dominant/prominant religions are all proven hoaxes, go back to the beginnings of their creation/invention. they just suddenly appear out of thin air, all religions before them denounced, every effort taken to eradicate other 'gods' belif systems.
christianity,islam and judaism is peddled by the authorities to citizens from the beginning of their lives, the same is true for the 19 saudis did 9/11. when faced with the decision of making a judgement, i have mountains of evidence showing the three modern religions as hoaxes, and not a shred to suggest they are not myths, regarding 9/11, theres mountains of evidence to suggest 19 saudis didant do it, and not a shred of evidence to support that they did. what do i believe?
This is a sad reflection where society has been railroaded into going.
things need to be proven, claims are made and we need proof, wmd's are in iraq and heading our way in 45 minutes, prove it we say, theres no proof, trust us on this, 19 saudis did 9/11, prove it we say, theres no proof, just trust us on this. the three modern religions are true, wheres the proof we say, just trust us on this one too they peddle. the authorites claim you have 19 million dollars of diamonds you have thieved and buried somewhere, prove it you say, they reply i dont need proof, you have to disprove you havant done it
Despite all the huffing and puffing i notice one thing, yet again not one shred of evidence to back up the hocus pocus of religions.
perhaps it would be better to produce some evidence for a 'god' etc? in fact how about that one teeny weeny shred of evidence?
Well Long Tooth, perhaps you haven’t found proof that there is, but that is not proof that there isn’t: and it depends on what you would be prepared to accept as proof anyway. And when we come to realise that the whole world is a re-creation of electrical signals inside our brains, the whole notion of empirical proof becomes far less certain anyway: ultimately there is only one proof, and that is a choice. "God" can get along very nicely without the belief of atheists: but atheism cannot survive an encounter with "God". Yet one thing is certain: anyone not looking for "God": is unlikely to ever find him: because not looking is also a choice
I havant found a shred of proof that christianity,judaism and islam are not hoaxes, on the contrary theres mountains upon mountains of evidence that the three 'great' 'modern' invented/created religions are false flags.
I havant found any proof that at the centre of the moons core it is made out of cheese, so i discount that. The same for christianity,islam and judaism. It all comes down to the same old tired arguments put forward by the religious masses, ''just trust us'' have some blind faith. when people regurgatate those words regarding religions, theres a false flag perpetuating the brainwashing.
No doubt if the creators/inventors of the santa claus myth hadant owned up that it was a hoax, we'd have the same religious blind faithers peddling the story along the same lines of the bible,god,jesus fables centuries later.
The three most dominant/prominant religions are all proven hoaxes, go back to the beginnings of their creation/invention. they just suddenly appear out of thin air, all religions before them denounced, every effort taken to eradicate other 'gods' belif systems.
christianity,islam and judaism is peddled by the authorities to citizens from the beginning of their lives, the same is true for the 19 saudis did 9/11. when faced with the decision of making a judgement, i have mountains of evidence showing the three modern religions as hoaxes, and not a shred to suggest they are not myths, regarding 9/11, theres mountains of evidence to suggest 19 saudis didant do it, and not a shred of evidence to support that they did. what do i believe?
This is a sad reflection where society has been railroaded into going.
things need to be proven, claims are made and we need proof, wmd's are in iraq and heading our way in 45 minutes, prove it we say, theres no proof, trust us on this, 19 saudis did 9/11, prove it we say, theres no proof, just trust us on this. the three modern religions are true, wheres the proof we say, just trust us on this one too they peddle. the authorites claim you have 19 million dollars of diamonds you have thieved and buried somewhere, prove it you say, they reply i dont need proof, you have to disprove you havant done it :wink:
In a few hundred years time, the population will view Christianity just the same way we today view the Greek Gods, Pagans or Roman Deities etc.
That is just FACT!
Religion is a primitive ideology, perpetrated by those who use it as a control mechanism. Zionism... The Catholic church... Masonic organisations... need I go on?
Ps. when you all die, it is going to be exactly the same as before you were born... How obvious does something need to be? :Sigh:
I'm sorry Bongo. I usually find your posting balanced. But this time you have over generalised. you or anyone else does not know what we become when we die. It would be arrogant of us to destroy aor attempt to destroy anothers faith
As arrogant as you destroying other peoples faith that 9/11 was done by 19 saudis?
Despite all the huffing and puffing i notice one thing, yet again not one shred of evidence to back up the hocus pocus of religions.
perhaps it would be better to produce some evidence for a 'god' etc? in fact how about that one teeny weeny shred of evidence?
Most genuine posters on here base their 'belief' that 9/11 was not an act done by those the authories claim, why, because of evidence/anomilies.
why does this rationale not count when talking about 'modern' created/invented religions?
How can these 3 modern religions just turn up a mere thousands of years ago? why no mention of them thousands of years before? the people who cling to christianity/judaism and islam have no clue when or how these scams were created/invented.
I am willing to accept 'god' exists when i see the single shred of evidence, until then i am entitled to my opinion its a hoax, and its only my opinion but without evidence to the contrary what other conclusion can one come to.
It wasant that long ago that a lightning bolt was seen as gods anger bringing wrath onto the baddies.
god created the universe. or god created the earth etc the blind faithers peddle, well er ok if you say so, so who created god?
never ever have i known any subject as religion become so rampant on not one shred of evidence, thats why its known as BLIND FAITH. Its the single largest factor in gaining control of masses of people, so simple yet so effective, the reason why people such as blackcat and i become so scorning over my gods better than your god lingo is we have had decades of waiting in vain for that one shred of evidence, judging by the responses on here we will have to wait decades more, along with billions of others around the world for that one shred. talk about conspiracy theories, this must be the biggest conspiracy theory ever peddled without one shred to back up the claims of 'modern' religions.
Thats why i feel when 'god' or religion gets brought into 9/11 its time we gave up.[/quote
I prayed I would be surrounded by pointless theological debate. I rest my case.
Why not try praying that everyone will wake up tomorrow knowing 19 saudis did 9/11 and is a hoax, it may save you time posting and picketing parliment square?
I havant found a shred of proof that christianity,judaism and islam are not hoaxes, on the contrary theres mountains upon mountains of evidence that the three 'great' 'modern' invented/created religions are false flags.
Please feel free to present your evidence Nosferatu
Long Tooth wrote:
I havant found any proof that at the centre of the moons core it is made out of cheese, so i discount that.
You havent been to the moon to investigate. Nor has anyone else. Yet you probably believe they have gone to the moon so in fact you do believe in something most people accept is a hollywood B movie. _________________
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Getting rid of God from this forum......
I suppose we should forget that William Rodriguez wanted to do specifically a 'Faith Tour' this time round?
Long Tooth wrote:
Mods,
is there any chance you can have a section to put all the religious garbage in?
God, heaven, earth, arcturians, evangilists, moonies, the bible says this the bible says that, etc etc.
to all the bible bashers out there, can you post one shred, just one shred of evidence to back up these god, jesus myths, thanks. btw blind faith dosant count.
Right... can you point to an exact POST or THread that you found to be perturbing you concerning this?
I havant found a shred of proof that christianity,judaism and islam are not hoaxes, on the contrary theres mountains upon mountains of evidence that the three 'great' 'modern' invented/created religions are false flags.
Please feel free to present your evidence Nosferatu
Long Tooth wrote:
I havant found any proof that at the centre of the moons core it is made out of cheese, so i discount that.
You havent been to the moon to investigate. Nor has anyone else. Yet you probably believe they have gone to the moon so in fact you do believe in something most people accept is a hollywood B movie.
Stelios,
Its not often you are correct, judging from your numerous posts on here, but you are wrong again. I dont probably believe they have gone to the moon, . this is a very 'colourful' shall we shall vague description of what i believe. do i believe 'they' have gone to the moon? in what sense, landed and walked on the moon, from the mountains of evidence it is another big hoax, do i believe 'they' have gone to the moon in the sense that 'they' have sent 'probes' yes.
One wonders why you refer to me as nosferatu, (vampire?), or do you have some sort of unhealthly fixation with mythical entities, ie vampires,angels etc? Or is it some sort of stigma throwing with which to comfort yourself with regards to awkward questions?
Its very amusing and highly revealing that you refer to B movies, is that where your intrest in vampires and angles stems?
Are you revealing to us all that you also believe in Vampires? ..... It wouldant suprise me if you kept the stake and cross handy under the bed after watching your archive of B movies.
Its not often you are correct, judging from your numerous posts on here, but you are wrong again. I dont probably believe they have gone to the moon, .
One wonders why you refer to me as nosferatu, (vampire?), or do you have some sort of unhealthly fixation with mythical entities, ie vampires,angels etc? Or is it some sort of stigma throwing with which to comfort yourself with regards to awkward questions?
Well i am glad to hear you dont believe in the moon landings. That is one of their many lies. Darwinism is another lie but we can discuss that another day. What do you think i am wrong about generally? I would like to know so i may learn and correct myself.
I refer to u as Nosferatu simply because you call yourself longtooth.
As you know nosferatu had one long tooth in the middle.
I meant you no disrespect.
You see my belief in something. And your belief against something are both belief systems. I believe in God - you believe God does not exist. That is your belief system. Athiesm. But i asked you for the proof that you spoke of and you did not present any.
Long Tooth, to live your life denying God and without the fear of God is in my view an empty life. What do you think happens to us when we die? _________________
If you don't want discussions on religion, then DONT START ONE! Which has been done, by starting a silly thread about keeping religion out of the forums.
On another point, it might shock you that I was athiest long before I became Muslim.
Plus, on proofs of Islam... well I am not going to talk to someone about it who is so arrogant as to believe they know something when they have shown no evidence of studying something.
Its not often you are correct, judging from your numerous posts on here, but you are wrong again. I dont probably believe they have gone to the moon, .
One wonders why you refer to me as nosferatu, (vampire?), or do you have some sort of unhealthly fixation with mythical entities, ie vampires,angels etc? Or is it some sort of stigma throwing with which to comfort yourself with regards to awkward questions?
Well i am glad to hear you dont believe in the moon landings. That is one of their many lies. Darwinism is another lie but we can discuss that another day. What do you think i am wrong about generally? I would like to know so i may learn and correct myself.
I refer to u as Nosferatu simply because you call yourself longtooth.
As you know nosferatu had one long tooth in the middle.
I meant you no disrespect.
You see my belief in something. And your belief against something are both belief systems. I believe in God - you believe God does not exist. That is your belief system. Athiesm. But i asked you for the proof that you spoke of and you did not present any.
Long Tooth, to live your life denying God and without the fear of God is in my view an empty life. What do you think happens to us when we die?
To me it seems that you are most ill informed about politics. Labour/libs/Cons.... all the same people/bad apples, from the same tree. They are all the same, behind the public figures/puppets are the same puppet masters. to give the simplist analogy, when the natives get restless, the smoke screen of a diffrent party is manipulated into shepherdhood/leadership. In south Africa, the oppenhiemers rule from a distance, controlling 80% of the nations weath amongst other things. during the riots etc, (when the natives were getting restless) the ANC were manipulated to power, the outcome, the oppenhiemers still control 80% of the wealth, the natives thing they have democracy and they sleep for a while. It dosant matter if its labour or conservative, they are all bilderbergers/masons etc. The political parties are nothing more than the same clan of street magicians with diffrent tribe colours.
I took the nosferatu name calling as an insult, now you have explained yourself i can see the hilarity I was wrong you were correct.
I will present my case for my assertion that the modern religions are hoaxes in the next week or so. when i do please have the courtesy to put your side of the debate forth and not dismiss it in a one sentence glib response.
What happens when we die? i dont know, but we will all find out for sure soon enough, i tend to believe towards reincarnation, but am not fully convinced.
It seems you have not travelled the world and are not wise enough to make such sweeping statements as ''to live your life denying God and without the fear of God is in my view an empty life. I have stated in past responses in threads that the most interesting people i have met have been people devoid of religious beliefs, (i have met people working in the Karen refugee camps in Myannmar) i worked there for 3 months myself, i have also lived in palastine and met many people doing great work there with the palastinians, most of whom had no religious belief system too, rather than them having ''empty lives without believeing in god, or the fear of god, they were out there doing what they wanted to do, '''true free spirits'''',opting out of materialism,religiousism etc. they had lived and were living the most full life of people i have ever met, on the contrary everyone i have met, and i mean everyone i have met who have one of the three moderen invented religions seem to live an empty and unfullfilling, sheltered life,restricted life, mostly the fear of god prevents them stepping out into the real world and actually living.
To me it seems that you are most ill informed about politics. Labour/libs/Cons.... all the same people/bad apples, from the same tree.
My politics. Ok i voted Tory during the eighties. UKIP during the late nineties and became a member. And the last election i voted for Respect and became a member. I would say that i am at the moment more concerned about the war and the wars on civil liberties. And as they are the most anti war party. I live in London and i am sure if i lived in a rural area my priorities may be different.
You cannot compare the Falklands war which i supported when we were attacked, with Blair's wars which are genocidal acts of agression for the greed of private corporations. I believe in the free market, but the rampant control of the mega corporations today in unlike anything other than in Hitler's Germany which was run by big business too.
But faith and religion is what seperates mankind from animals. It gives us a conscience. It gives us rules and regulations. It teaches us to love and to care. It teaches us not to hate and not to hurt. And it is a blueprint as to how we conduct ourselves. Being free and wild and feral are not good qualities. So whether you agree with religion or not you must acknowledge it as a moral backbone that society needs. _________________
If you don't want discussions on religion, then DONT START ONE! Which has been done, by starting a silly thread about keeping religion out of the forums.
On another point, it might shock you that I was athiest long before I became Muslim.
Plus, on proofs of Islam... well I am not going to talk to someone about it who is so arrogant as to believe they know something when they have shown no evidence of studying something.
Hi Zabooka,
thank you for your observations.
Shall we start at the beginning?
Rather than compile a list of thousands of pages long detailing the hoax points, i shall start on one point. lets try for a common consensus when the three modern religions were invented/created shall we, and then move on from there?
As we have a follower of islam (you) and a follower of christianity (stelios) all i need now is a follower of (judaism) anybody on here a follower of judaism?
timelines for the creations/inventions of:
1) judaism, 3760 BC.
2) christianity, 40 AD:
3) Islam, 570 AD
give or take 10 years on the above dates, do you accept this? if not please submit your own dates when these religions were created/invented, and i will except those for debating purposes.
For the advancement of this forum, removing the religious hoaxes once and for all out of the 9/11 topic, i challenge you to a debate?
I wait for your reply to the above mentioned timelines for confirmation or ammendment before we move on.
PS, my point, if you had read the complete replies of mine throughout this thread, you will have understood i want to keep religious hoaxes out of the 9/11 material/topic and into a seperate area.
i am now replying to various posters and responding to the request for 'proof/evidence' of my non acceptance of these religious fables/fairystories. Now is the time to put your side of the debate to say why you believe the religion/s to be true accounts of history and proof/evidence for the existance of your/our god.
Okay... for one thing. Fine about your observations about people doing very well in life and being very lovely in life in general and doing all sorts of great things with no observance of any religion.
I have one anomaly. Why is it, that in this Post-Modern era, where people like you believe that philosophy and science has done away with the religions of old. If this is so, and all round the world the world is technologically advancing, even in Bangladesh in the villages they have Sky, Mobile Phones and Internet. Why is then... that Islam is in fact the fastest growing religion?
Why is it, that at the heart of the post-modern world, in US and UK, it is Islam that is the fastest growing religion? Why is it not stagnating in the face of some 'superior secular enlightenment'?
Especially after 9/11, we find the conversion rate having surged ahead strongly! Even after 7/7 it surges onwards more ever stronger.
Why is it, that you can not do a survey of many scientists and find more than half of them athiest? There are many who feel stronger in their given faiths the more they delve into their scientific fields.
Plus... you have no way, and I am certain of this. Studied Islam to any length for me to find your opinion worth hearing. I was an athiest, and devoutly anti-Religion, esp Anti-Islam. Yet I was sincere in it. Afterwards I found many athiests not to be as sincere as I was.
I mean, look at William Chittick. He made this amazing comprehensive work called "Vision of Islam". He writes almost as good as most Muslim Scholars. Yet he to this day as far as I know, is not Muslim. However, he doesn't say at the end of the book, see I told you, there is no God! Or that see I told you Islam is all a hoax.
Also, you have not answered this... "Right... can you point to an exact POST or THread that you found to be perturbing you concerning this?" IE - with regards to religion.
This has nothing to do with 9/11 Truth, whatsoever. Its ridiculous.
Why don't you call Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin and William Rodriguez frauds or fools then. As they seem to give into this 'hoax' called religion.
The fact is, some of you atheists have nothing but to shout at us theists. Some of you atheists take God more seriously than some of us theists, you just can't seem to shut up about God and his non-existence.
You say you know many atheists that get on well with life. Well, so what? Is that not more reason why you should just leave theists to get on with their lives?
I don't see any theists here spouting about the hoax about atheism! However I have seen quite a few atheists go nuts about theists.
Now I don't just have friends of many differing religions. Remember if you care to believe, it must crack your world view a bit, but I was a very devout atheist. I accepted that there is nothing before and nothing afterwards, so everything inbetween is meaningless. So if its meaningless what are you ranting and raving about? I mean what are you saving the theists from? If we are all just going to die and be forgotton.
I have very good friends who are Atheist. Infact, all my fellow siblings are atheists.
I repeat!
This has nothing to do with 9/11 Truth, whatsoever. Its ridiculous.
Why don't you call Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin and William Rodriguez frauds or fools then. As they seem to give into this 'hoax' called religion.
So Im ignoring you and your pettyness. Just enjoy life and then die like the rest of us then. Go on.
Stop bothering about how you have made this great discovery about how there is nothing after death and you must save us from something.
Okay... for one thing. Fine about your observations about people doing very well in life and being very lovely in life in general and doing all sorts of great things with no observance of any religion.
I have one anomaly. Why is it, that in this Post-Modern era, where people like you believe that philosophy and science has done away with the religions of old. If this is so, and all round the world the world is technologically advancing, even in Bangladesh in the villages they have Sky, Mobile Phones and Internet. Why is then... that Islam is in fact the fastest growing religion?
Why is it, that at the heart of the post-modern world, in US and UK, it is Islam that is the fastest growing religion? Why is it not stagnating in the face of some 'superior secular enlightenment'?
Especially after 9/11, we find the conversion rate having surged ahead strongly! Even after 7/7 it surges onwards more ever stronger.
Why is it, that you can not do a survey of many scientists and find more than half of them athiest? There are many who feel stronger in their given faiths the more they delve into their scientific fields.
Plus... you have no way, and I am certain of this. Studied Islam to any length for me to find your opinion worth hearing. I was an athiest, and devoutly anti-Religion, esp Anti-Islam. Yet I was sincere in it. Afterwards I found many athiests not to be as sincere as I was.
I mean, look at William Chittick. He made this amazing comprehensive work called "Vision of Islam". He writes almost as good as most Muslim Scholars. Yet he to this day as far as I know, is not Muslim. However, he doesn't say at the end of the book, see I told you, there is no God! Or that see I told you Islam is all a hoax.
Also, you have not answered this... "Right... can you point to an exact POST or THread that you found to be perturbing you concerning this?" IE - with regards to religion.
The basis for your argument is that because islam has the fastest growing followers its not a hoax? that goes along the lines of, the sun revolves around the earth, and the scientist who has evidence that the earth revolves around the sun is wrong, because there is more followers in the hoax of the sun revolves around the earth!!! quite breathtakingly staggering at logic.
perhaps the opening gambit of when the religions were invented/created are just too disconcerting for you to address? this is your chance to convert me into another follower, provided you put some evidence up? are you afraid that the evidence i put up will be just too challening for you?
does chittick agree that islam was created/invented in 570 AD? lets not run before you can walk eh?
Why are you so afraid to debate? you are sure i know nothing about Islam, join the debate and expose me as the hoaxer if you are so sure, or, if not, avoid the dates of invention/created and carry on your little hoax?
you do not seem to have much tolerance for a religion that preaches tolerance.
This has nothing to do with 9/11 Truth, whatsoever. Its ridiculous.
Why don't you call Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin and William Rodriguez frauds or fools then. As they seem to give into this 'hoax' called religion.
The fact is, some of you atheists have nothing but to shout at us theists. Some of you atheists take God more seriously than some of us theists, you just can't seem to shut up about God and his non-existence.
You say you know many atheists that get on well with life. Well, so what? Is that not more reason why you should just leave theists to get on with their lives?
I don't see any theists here spouting about the hoax about atheism! However I have seen quite a few atheists go nuts about theists.
Now I don't just have friends of many differing religions. Remember if you care to believe, it must crack your world view a bit, but I was a very devout atheist. I accepted that there is nothing before and nothing afterwards, so everything inbetween is meaningless. So if its meaningless what are you ranting and raving about? I mean what are you saving the theists from? If we are all just going to die and be forgotton.
I have very good friends who are Atheist. Infact, all my fellow siblings are atheists.
I repeat!
This has nothing to do with 9/11 Truth, whatsoever. Its ridiculous.
Why don't you call Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin and William Rodriguez frauds or fools then. As they seem to give into this 'hoax' called religion.
So Im ignoring you and your pettyness. Just enjoy life and then die like the rest of us then. Go on.
Stop bothering about how you have made this great discovery about how there is nothing after death and you must save us from something.
You say you know many atheists that get on well with life. Well,
so what?
i was responding to another poster who stated that you need a god to get on well with life, i was merly reponding with examples that you dont need one to get on well with life, perhaps it would be a good idea to read the posts then you would know why i was responding like that? its no wonder you seem greatly confused and angry.
I think it is clear to see how you are using the anger 'card' to wriggle out of the opening point of creation/invention of Islam. thats okay, no problem.
we will all die eventually, what are you so afraid of? death?
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:59 am Post subject:
Zabooka: this thread doesnt have to relate to 9/11 truth: its in "Other controversies". I suggest taking part in it or not taking part in it, but whichever way, doing so with as cool a head as possible
And here's a short article I wrote to help it along: lets see how this goes...
Quote:
The Bible (and all scripture) is "flawed".... ....because humans are "flawed"
What do I mean by this? Well consider ourselves. We live dependant on our one rock in space being just the right distance from our Sun, and on the existence of a six mile thick layer of gas. We cannot travel the vastness of the Universe, but must peer out and guess and wonder. We are finite: we cannot read every book ever written in a lifetime, or even remotely close, or travel to all places we could travel to. We cannot know everything, we cannot be everything: we are creatures of extreme limitation
We are born, knowing nothing, no language, no pattern, no thought: from our immediate surrounding we start to absorb input with which we construct our "inner world", the model through which we filter all input. What thoughts can a man have, without the construction bricks of concepts to construct them? In terms of development of mind, all humans are wildly different from one another and none is perfect, for the perfection of mind is impossible
And yet, we are connected by our feelings: we all can feel, and feel the same feelings. this is our common bond that unites us all together: whoever we have persuaded ourselves to think we are, or to think another is (atheist/ theist/ humanist/ christian/ muslim/ jew/ buddhist/ communist and all the rest) because of our interpretation of our immediate environment from birth to maturity, whatever bits of data exist within the storage of our brains, we all have human blood pumping through our human hearts: we all have human forms derived, in their diversity, from our common human heritage
For some of us, the mind is enough. Something makes sense, it makes sense, anything which we cannot make sense of, is therefore non-sense. If our inner model has reached its limits of what it can conceive, we do not say "our model is limited": instead we say "this data does not fit, it must be false". Yet for others, we understand that whilst our mind is limited, our feeling is not. What difference does distance make to feel the suffering of a child who has been harmed? What need of a feeling to be rationalised in order to be felt? The rationalisation only comes after the feeling, not before
Consider all of the above, and then consider scripture:
Let us imagine that in the vastness of the universe there is an order of intelligence far far vaster than our own, intelligence without limit, infinite intelligence, occupying all places simultaneously (which is a reasonably fair description of what the spiritually inclined consider "God" to be). Let us imagine one was that intelligence: how then could one communicate effectively with a being as limited and flawed as man? Could man, with his ability only to construct sense from what the pattern of thoughts he knows, immediately and comprehensively grasps what it is to be infinite intelligence? Clearly, the likely answer here is No
But man can feel: and this capacity to feel is what could connect man to the infinite intelligence around him. With this connection, man can feel what it is to be man from the POV of infinite intelligence. He can feel what it is to be awareness much larger than himself... and he can then use the contents of his mind to construct a mental model that defines, imperfectly, as that is the only way man can define, those infinite feelings stimulated by from infinite intelligence
That is what all scripture is: the imperfect translation of infinite feeling, filtered through the cultural and historical context of the individual so connected and inspired
And what feelings are they, that can be inspired by infinite intelligence? What does infinite intelligence feel?
Infinite empathy. Infinite compassion. Infinite Love
Of course, we can reject this. We can focus on the imperfect map of scripture, the product of imperfect man, and say "these words are cruel: this phrase is hurtful: this concept is ignorant": and all these things are true. But we are critiquing man and his failings: not the touch with infinity that so inspired him
All scripture is flawed. The profound beauty lies in the fact that any has been attempted to be written at all
Perhaps we cannot conceive that there is such a thing as infinite intelligence. Perhaps we live in such a way that there is only our own intelligence, and that is all there is. This seems to me to be the same as saying "So! You claim to have had a divine revelation standing on that hill! Right I'm going to go and stand there too: and if I don't have an identical replicable divine inspiration, I'm going to declare you a fraud!"
And perhaps that’s why one of the common translations of communion with infinite intelligence ("God") is:
"Forgive them: they know not what they do"
_________________ Free your Self and Free the World
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talk about conspiracy theories, this must be the biggest conspiracy theory ever peddled without one shred to back up the claims of 'modern' religions.
