SWP debates 9/11

[xmasdale]

SWP debates 9/11

At Marxism 2007 this Saturday, "a Festival of Resistance" http://www.marxismfestival.org.uk/ organised by the Socialist Worker Party, I attended a session entitled "What’s Wrong With Conspiracy Theories?"

The speaker was Richard Seymour of Lenin’s Tomb blogspot http://leninology.blogspot.com/

I was very encouraged that, for the first time that I am aware of, the Socialist Worker Party were debating 9/11. Toseef, chair of the London group, was also there and seemed very disappointed with the session. I suspect our differences were a result of different expectations. I did not expect the SWP to take the 9/11 issue seriously and was surprised that many of them did. I hope Toseef will write his impressions on this thread.

This was not billed as a debate about 9/11, though that was what it became.

Richard Seymour started with an historical overview of conspiracies and conspiracy theories of the past. He maintained that there clearly have been conspiracies in the past, citing Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, the Suez Crisis of 1956, the Gulf of Tonkin incident and also some rather vaguer "conspiracy theories" such as Bilderberg being connected to the Free Masons and other secret societies forming in effect a secret world government of powerful interests. He even mentioned David Icke and his lizards as the most ridiculous of all conspiracy theories.

I was getting a bit bored with this when he at last got on to 9/11. It soon emerged that the main thing he wanted to talk about was how to deal with the 9/11 Truth Movement. He pointed out that Socialist Workers need to study the issue "otherwise 9/11 Truth Campaigners will run rings around you". He said that many of the things truth campaigners say are true and that should be recognised. He said there is no doubt that the 9/11 Truth Commission did not get to the truth in its report, being a commission of White House placemen, particularly Zelikow.

Then he went on to say that truth campaigners keep repeating myths which are not true, such as nine of the alleged hijackers being still alive and gave as an example one who had the same name as a living man. Therefore he urged "comrades" to study the writings of truth campaigners to find the inaccuracies in their arguments, but also to acknowledge the truth of some of their arguments. He cited the following authors as worth studying: Nafeez Ahmed, David Ray Griffin, Rowland Morgan, Ian Henshall, Michael Ruppert and Robin Ramsay (editor of Lobster magazine whom he described as "soft left Labour Party")

He said 9/11 truth campaigners had a ridiculous theory that if you can expose the 9/11 attacks as being orchestrated by the US government the whole capitalist system would collapse.

In effect he sat on the fence over the whole issue. There then followed debate with people who had submitted a slip to stewards being called to speak for three minutes from the microphone. Unfortunately I hadn’t realised this was the system and therefore hadn’t submitted a slip.

Points raised by various speakers were:

We shall never know the truth about what happened that day until the revolution comes and the files are opened. Therefore the most important thing is to work for the revolution.

Of course the notion that 9/11 was an inside job is a ridiculous conspiracy theory but we need to be informed about the issue in order to win the argument with people who have been led astray by these conspiracists.

A bespectacled man called Oliver, who spoke with a German accent, said that of course there are conspiracies and the capitalist system itself is one big conspiracy which needs exposing. The rich people who control the system are in the habit of dissembling because their very power depends on deceiving the masses. I passed him a note asking to speak to him afterwards, but we missed each other. (I was escorted from the premises for leafletting outside the meeting which meant I missed a lot of the people coming out at the end). Does anyone reading this know this Oliver? I thought a conversation with him could be useful.

The final contributor was a young guy from Leeds who had been very impressed by meetings organised by the West Yorkshire 9/11 Truth Group and had met David Shayler. He urged his comrades to study the issue and to take it seriously. Thanks to our comrades in Yorkshire.

It has taken three and a half years of campaigning to get the SWP, highly influential in Stop the War and the Respect coalition, to come this far. They are at last taking the issue seriously enough to debate it. I never expected them to embrace our position suddenly and doubtless there will always be differences, but the issue is now on their agenda and they want to debate it and study it more deeply. We need debate too and people who study the issue and point out flaws in our arguments are to be welcomed, as by such debate we get closer to the truth of what happened.

Congratulations to all those who through tireless campaigning have forced the SWP to look at this issue seriously.

[paul wright]

Thanks very much for that report, Noel. It seems like some good has been done. Whether the SWP will ever actually get the point in its central committee is a measure of how much 9/11 was meant to be semi-exposed in the first place.
The SWP is controlled obviously by the security services with placements. Alex Callinicos, wrong spelling but you know who I mean, is reportedly one.
They will be getting there, if it's meant to be
Nice to know that they are debating it and for sure junior protagonists have got the point.
If it ever got anywhere near central policy, we'd have to be severely aware of the outcome.
UN takeover or some such

[tfayaz]

All in all, I do believe that this talk was NOT about "conspiracy theorists" but the 9/11 Truth Movement itself. I didn't want to go down the route of John Conner/Mark Dice or whatever else you want to call him as I don't think it achieves anything, especially given the topic of the conversation.
It would've just given them more ammunition to put us down.

The main speaker obviously hadn't done his research in the movement or his debunking of the movement, in particular Nafeez Ahmed and David Ray Griffin. His arguments were baseless but the audience seemed receptive enough even without checking the facts themselves.

I had the opportunity to speak to one or two of the people who attended outside afterwards and, as Belinda can tell you about one particular individual: ZOMBIES!

Further to what you did say Noel, I suppose it is a plus point that they are beginning to talk about it; stage 2 of what DRG often speaks about.

Toseef

[gareth]

I would very much like to hear a debate between the SWP and representatives from the UK 9/11 Truth Campaign. Why not eh? We are after all part of a recognised international peace movement. If they aren't prepared to play ball and that is acknowledged then surely that works in our favour anyway?

Thanks for the festival lowdown guys.

[Zabooka]

Sorry guys I was late.

I did make use of my time. Boy... sometimes I get a buzz and just can't stop talking 9/11! lol

I met an New Yorker... gosh she was cute! Lol. erm... she was working at the Book Shop. I told her all about ... well everything really and got her hooked on meeting William Rodriguez. I handed out those Fony Twenty's at Cashiers, YOU may notice them still there if you go places. I shall bring more in... I have about a hundred left. Shall just try to get people to notice them about.

The more exposure, the more attention, etc, etc.
I also have another 100 DVDs, with Ludricous Diversions, Mind The Gap, Confronting The Evidence and Loose Change 2nd Ed (not ReCut). These are all thanks to Reflector! )

I hope all my £20 notes and DVDs get distributed sensibly across the Festival. We are getting noticed quite amicably. They do not all hate us, most of them are intrigued!

Most people I find, as long as you approach them like a normal human being. Just be friendly and nice, be NORMAL! Forget that your even a 911 Campaigner, just be a nice human. Get that Rapport, talk about something in common that you agree with, find their angle, then drop it on them subtly.

Anyway, I shall try to be there early morning Sunday... but have to leave at 1pm for work. Will try to be back by 5pm if possible.

[xmasdale]

[xmasdale]

[andyb]

Thanks to those who attended. From Noel's report it does seem that they are acknowledging a lot of what we say is true. Wehn campaigning we need to stick to these facts. Don't speculate and they can't ignore us. Unfortunately, people will look for any reason to avoid the issue. If you give them incorrect or unsubstantiated information they will wrtie off any of the good information you give them.

Really do your research as there is a lot of stuff out there that isn't 100% true yet gets repeated by many. Go and read the debunking sites to see which arguments don't stand up and therfore harm us. There are so many indisputable facts that do stand up. Lets stick to them.

[xmasdale]

[andyb]

just google screw loose change or 911myths. We just need to avoid the arguments that can't be 100% supported by fact, despite our beliefs.

[xmasdale]

BTW

Who was the young guy from Leeds who had been impressed by the West Yorkshire 911 Truth Group and was the last person to be called to speak from the microphone at the festival of Marxism session? If you're reading this website, I would like to get in touch with you and so would others I'm sure.

Noel

[Reflecter]

Thats certainly a very positive thing that the SWP are even considering the issue. The fact that many will look at the information, may lead to personal choice, even if it was on orders from on high to find the weaknesses solely.

Congrats on getting chucked out Xmas. You must've been doing the right thing.

tfayaz