| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Godspeed2012
New Poster
Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 4
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Rowan Berkeley
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 306
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: Excellent clips, thanks |
 |
|
| that diagonal effect is crazy though - it cannot possibly be deliberate, surelY? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
telecasterisation
Banned
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1873
Location: Upstairs
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: 9/11 NEW VIDEO WTC DEMOLTION SEQUENCE REVEALED |
|
|
| Godspeed2012 wrote: | These video refute the official story. Demolition charges can be seen 60-70 floors below the plane impact holes.
Sequence charges appeared to have been used to steer the collapse of WTC 1, WTC 2, WTC 7 on September 11th 2001.
Great video with enhanced audio. Some new rare perspectives of stabalized video of the collapse at ground level. |
Whilst this has been debated here umpteen times, has any demolition expert (and I don't mean marky54), actually stated in detail where charges would have to be positioned, their quantity and their detonation timing to actually bring down buildings of this size?
In other words, or rather, the same question using a slightly different perspective;
Given the size of the internal supporting steel structures, having watched video of controlled detonations, substantial forces are needed to take out the key supports. What we told are demolition charges going off in WTC 911 footage hardly seems anything more than the effects of the downward pressure wave forcing out windows.
Now whilst I am not saying they aren't demo charges - can any expert substantiate that this is exactly would happen if we were witnessing an actual genuine levelling of WTC? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Fantastic idea Tele.
Where did you get this idea from Tele ?
Did you think of it all by yourself ?
Forgive my ignorance, please, but what is a "downward pressure wave" ?
Also, could you give us an idea of the route that this "downward pressure wave" took whilst it travelled down, from the floor above ?
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In the words of Implosion World:
"Human inhabited buildings are typically composed of about 70% air and 30% structural elements and contents. during any rapid collapse that air must be displaced in some manner."
It was displaced through whatever was the path of least resistance on the floors below, which windows were blown out depending on how easy it was for the pressured air to reach them through the internal structure and the condition of the window frames and so on. They go on to point out that neither building failed at any location where these "plumes" were visible or in advance of the collapse wave. No demolition expert yet found, including Danny Jowenko, thinks that the towers were subject to a CD, in fact they think it impossible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
telecasterisation
Banned
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1873
Location: Upstairs
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark Gobell wrote: | Fantastic idea Tele.
Where did you get this idea from Tele ?
Did you think of it all by yourself ?
Forgive my ignorance, please, but what is a "downward pressure wave" ?
Also, could you give us an idea of the route that this "downward pressure wave" took whilst it travelled down, from the floor above ? |
I am a trifle unsure why you think my post involved an 'idea'. I asked a question, not posed a concept. The question is clear, perhaps you misread it, this is very common and I witness it all the time.
You ask what a downward pressure wave is? You could start here if you think it might help;
http://www.math.vt.edu/people/gao/physics/mechanics/wtc_zpb.pdf
There is no need to ask forgiveness, I am not religious, but thank you for believing I could extend the kindness. It is good to know you hold me in such high regard.
If you would like to talk privately on any other matter concerning relationships or anything else that troubles you in life, drop me your email address via PM and I will be glad to offer my advice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Unqualified as I am in either demolition or pressure wavery, what I don't get is why, on the rather famous footage seen in the clip where the cameraman is forced to run away, a 'squib' is visible way, way down the tower many stories below the destruction wave only for another to appear far closer to the destruction wave afterwards. The initial compressed air seems to have travelled an awful long way and got there before another pocket that popped out further up. Please explain.
_________________
It's a man's life in MOSSAD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dogsmilk wrote: | | Unqualified as I am in either demolition or pressure wavery, what I don't get is why, on the rather famous footage seen in the clip where the cameraman is forced to run away, a 'squib' is visible way, way down the tower many stories below the destruction wave only for another to appear far closer to the destruction wave afterwards. The initial compressed air seems to have travelled an awful long way and got there before another pocket that popped out further up. Please explain. |
All one can do is speculate, but it is quite possible that as the destruction wave progressed down the towers different pathways for the pressure waves were opened up which were not accessable before. For instance, private stairways between floors and lift shafts at different levels. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Dogsmilk wrote: | | Unqualified as I am in either demolition or pressure wavery, what I don't get is why, on the rather famous footage seen in the clip where the cameraman is forced to run away, a 'squib' is visible way, way down the tower many stories below the destruction wave only for another to appear far closer to the destruction wave afterwards. The initial compressed air seems to have travelled an awful long way and got there before another pocket that popped out further up. Please explain. |
All one can do is speculate, but it is quite possible that as the destruction wave progressed down the towers different pathways for the pressure waves were opened up which were not accessable before. For instance, private stairways between floors and lift shafts at different levels. |
Yes I see what you're saying. It's just that the bursts appear to be of considerable size and presumably considerable force. That low down one appears to have moved - what - at least twenty stories down the building before managing to find an appropriate window. One would have thought that air that far below the destruction wave would yet to be significantly compressed, but if it came from higher up it has travelled a very very long way very very fast.
I just find it odd.
_________________
It's a man's life in MOSSAD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Some more speculation, but lift shafts and stairwells seem the most likely method for pressure waves to be forced down, so the air would travel down a narrow cylinder rather than being dispersed more widely. Most doors off lift shafts and stairwells would be shut by self-closing doors, so the wave might travel twenty floors before reaching one that was perhaps jammed open. another thought is that mechanical floors would probably have cooling vents which would provide an easier exhaust route than windows, as well as more dust to blow out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But if as you suggest doors were shut, how could a "pressure wave" travel downwards then ?
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
telecasterisation
Banned
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1873
Location: Upstairs
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | But if as you suggest doors were shut, how could a "pressure wave" travel downwards then ? |
Because the pressure was sufficiently powerful enough to open them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So, now that the former closed doors are now open, why did the "pressure wave" ignore the windows on the same floor as the open doors ?
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | But if as you suggest doors were shut, how could a "pressure wave" travel downwards then ? |
I speculated that doors off lift shafts and stair wells would likely be shut, therefore the pressure wave would travel down the lift shaft or stair well until it reached a door that might be open. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So how did the "pressure wave" get into the lift shaft or stair well then ?
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | So how did the "pressure wave" get into the lift shaft or stair well then ? |
I think it is common ground that floors collapsed quickly on to each other, for whatever cause, including CD. The air between them was therefore pressurised and rapidly displaced. Some would have gone down the lift shafts and stair wells, pressurising the air already there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Can we break this down into simple steps please, so that I can see exactly what it is you are suggesting, just so there's no misunderstanding.
Let's start at the point where NIST finished.
A entire single floor starts to collapse . . .
Can you continue from there for me ?
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark Gobell wrote: | Can we break this down into simple steps please, so that I can see exactly what it is you are suggesting, just so there's no misunderstanding.
Let's start at the point where NIST finished.
A entire single floor starts to collapse . . .
Can you continue from there for me ? |
It falls towards the floor below. As it does so it pressurises and displaces the air between the two floors. Some goes down the lift shafts and stair wells, pressurising the air already there. Other floors fall continuing the process and building up the pressure. This pressure is relieved at the weakest point of resistance. That might well be an open doorway some distance away. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| How can any pressure build up when the sides of the building are simultaneously shown shattering outwards as the floors "collapse"? A syringe would not work if the cylinder was open at the point of the plunger as it descended. The floors were smashed to dust anyway so there could not have been any air pressure build up. On the video of WTC7 the squibs are shown at the top of the building as it starts to collapse and before any floors could build up any pressure even if it was possible for them to do so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | | It falls towards the floor below. As it does so it pressurises and displaces the air between the two floors. Some goes down the lift shafts and stair wells, pressurising the air already there. Other floors fall continuing the process and building up the pressure. This pressure is relieved at the weakest point of resistance. That might well be an open doorway some distance away. |
I'm looking at my ceiling here, imagining it's coming down on me, in one piece, with no possibility that the air beneath it has any chance to escape vertically upwards through any gaps as it falls, because the collapsing ceiling falls in one, unbroken piece, with no gaps at it's sides, whatsoever, as it travels down my walls in one solid, plunger like slab of concrete and steel, thus preventing the "pressure wave" that it is creating, from escaping through it.
An unprecedented, world's first, hermetically sealed ceiling collapse. To be generous.
To be generous, let's ignore the towering inferno of steel warping, oxygen consuming, floor support failing, pancake inducing, ferocious jet fuel fire that is burning just above my falling ceiling for now.
Let's also ignore the jealous jet fuel fire that travels down through the lift shafts and stair wells which then blew out the lobby in a massive fireball, that in deference to the "pressure wave" perhaps, vainly deigned to leave no evidential scars of it's carbony heritage.
The same "downward fireball" that presumably snubbed the "pressure wave" as it too travelled, hungry for it's own dramatic effect in deference to the nasty, aggressive, oxygen consuming monster, trying to upstage it. Or indeed, begging to be fed by it.
Did they fall out at the Sky Lobby and go their separate ways ?
The ceiling is now falling and the walls, as you know, have to remain in tact as the concrete and steel plunger descends.
My doors are shut, as are the windows.
To be generous, for your scenario, my doors could be open but the windows, as you know must be closed.
My front door is shut, as is the lift door across the landing and the door to the stair well adjacent to the lift.
Again, to be generous, my front door could be open as could the doors to the lift and the stair well, if you like.
By the time my 2.4m high ceiling hits my floor, we are already 0.244 seconds into the "collapse", for a single storey.
That fractional second does not include any delay encountered due to inconvenient, obstructive things like air resistance, "stubborn friction", sagging and bending steel, concrete, masonry, shag pile carpet tiles, office furniture, recalcitrant desks and furniture, filing cabinets, computers, coat stands, ventilation systems, plumbing, electrical installations, pens, plastic cups, oh, and crushing human beings and other anomalies occupying the space in which the "pressure wave", already a quarter of a second old, now has to decide which way to turn and how quickly.
The "pressure wave" and the "downward fireball".
A tale of two, organic, symbiotic lovers. Reluctant, possibly unwitting adversaries in the towers of death.
Highly unlikely they would have travelled independently, let alone, never meet.
Can you continue your "pressure wave" scenario from here for me please, taking your pick among the open and closed doors as you choose . . .
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan.
Last edited by Mark Gobell on Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| blackcat wrote: | | How can any pressure build up when the sides of the building are simultaneously shown shattering outwards as the floors "collapse"? A syringe would not work if the cylinder was open at the point of the plunger as it descended. The floors were smashed to dust anyway so there could not have been any air pressure build up. On the video of WTC7 the squibs are shown at the top of the building as it starts to collapse and before any floors could build up any pressure even if it was possible for them to do so. |
A lady's fan works to displace air and cause a draught even though air can flow freely around its edges, a parachute works to slow a fall even though air flows freely round its edges, a falling floor would similarly build up pressure beneath it whatever the state of the walls.
The floors were smashed by falling into each other, they did not disintegrate in mid air. Even if the floor below was smashed by the floor above falling on to it, that means that a mass of rubble is now falling, again driving out the air in front of it. Of course if the floors were falling as a result of demolition charges knocking out their supporting columns rather than upper floors falling on them, they would be more likely to fall at least partially intact.
The collapse of WTC7 started at the bottom, so the air pressure correspondingly must have gone up the building rather than down. If you look at the timing it is clear that the building has started to collapse before the "squibs" appear at the top. In any case it would be bizarre if demolition charges were going off at the top of the building resulting in a collapse at the bottom. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | It falls towards the floor below. As it does so it pressurises and displaces the air between the two floors. Some goes down the lift shafts and stair wells, pressurising the air already there. Other floors fall continuing the process and building up the pressure. This pressure is relieved at the weakest point of resistance. That might well be an open doorway some distance away. |
I'm looking at my ceiling here, imagining it's coming down on me, in one piece, with no possibility that the air beneath it has any chance to escape vertically upwards through any gaps as it falls, because the collapsing ceiling falls in one, unbroken piece, with no gaps at it's sides, whatsoever, as it travels down my walls in one solid, plunger like slab of concrete and steel, thus preventing the "pressure wave" that it is creating, from escaping through it.
An unprecedented, world's first, hermetically sealed ceiling collapse. To be generous.
To be generous, let's ignore the towering inferno of steel warping, oxygen consuming, floor support failing, pancake inducing, ferocious jet fuel fire that is burning just above my falling ceiling for now.
Let's also ignore the jealous jet fuel fire that travels down through the lift shafts and stair wells which then blew out the lobby in a massive fireball, that in deference to the "pressure wave" perhaps, vainly deigned to leave no evidential scars of it's carbony heritage.
The same "downward fireball" that presumably snubbed the "pressure wave" as it too travelled, hungry for it's own dramatic effect in deference to the nasty, aggressive, oxygen consuming monster, trying to upstage it. Or indeed, begging to be fed by it.
Did they fall out at the Sky Lobby and go their separate ways ?
The ceiling is now falling and the walls, as you know, have to remain in tact as the concrete and steel plunger descends.
My doors are shut, as are the windows.
To be generous, for your scenario, my doors could be open but the windows, as you know must be closed.
My front door is shut, as is the lift door across the landing and the door to the stair well adjacent to the lift.
Again, to be generous, my front door could be open as could the doors to the lift and the stair well, if you like.
By the time my 2.4m high ceiling hits my floor, we are already 0.244 seconds into the "collapse", for a single storey.
That fractional second does not include any delay encountered due to inconvenient, obstructive things like air resistance, "stubborn friction", sagging and bending steel, concrete, masonry, shag pile carpet tiles, office furniture, recalcitrant desks and furniture, filing cabinets, computers, coat stands, ventilation systems, plumbing, electrical installations, pens, plastic cups, oh, and crushing human beings and other anomalies occupying the space in which the "pressure wave", already a quarter of a second old, now has to decide which way to turn and how quickly.
The "pressure wave" and the "downward fireball".
A tale of two, organic, symbiotic lovers. Reluctant, possibly unwitting adversaries in the towers of death.
Highly unlikely they would have travelled independently, let alone, never meet.
Can you continue your "pressure wave" scenario from here for me please, taking your pick among the open and closed doors as you choose . . . |
My, you are getting confused!
The fireball occurs when the aircraft hit the tower, the pressure wave when it collapsed, an hour later, long after any jet fuel had burnt off.
If your ceiling falls in your hermetically sealed room it will never reach the floor, it will come to rest in a position where the air pressure balances its weight. However, I beg leave to doubt your theory that plastic cups in the WTC towers would significantly impede the falling floors, as well as whether a pressure wave decides its own direction or falls in love. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | | A lady's fan works to displace air and cause a draught even though air can flow freely around its edges |
But the lady's fan doesn't blow her snot out through her nose or her wax out through her ears. Does it ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | a parachute works to slow a fall even though air flows freely round its edges |
And yet the parachutist hopefully lands safely with his orifices free from "pressure waves" and dust.
Quite what you have in mind comparing "lady's fans" and "parachutes" to a falling ceiling and intact walls is not that clear.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | a falling floor would similarly build up pressure beneath it whatever the state of the walls. |
Regardless of the state of the walls ? No it wouldn't. What if the walls were similarly disintegrating ?
The falling floor would displace the air through the path of least resistance. If the walls were fractured then the "pressure wave" would be dissipated at the fracture.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | The floors were smashed by falling into each other, they did not disintegrate in mid air. |
So what caused all that dust then ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Even if the floor below was smashed by the floor above falling on to it, that means that a mass of rubble is now falling, again driving out the air in front of it. |
A mass of falling rubble has air gaps in between each piece of falling rubble. You can either have your solid slab and continue your journey of the "pressure wave" or you can't have your "pressure wave" at all.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Of course if the floors were falling as a result of demolition charges knocking out their supporting columns rather than upper floors falling on them, they would be more likely to fall at least partially intact. |
Even if the demolition charges didn't affect the floor above it and it fell "partially intact" what would happen when that "partially intact" floor hit the next one ?
Would it too fall "partially intact" ?
Would it contribute to your "pressure wave" scenario.
Also, we are now .488 seconds into the "collapse", for only two storeys.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | The collapse of WTC7 started at the bottom, so the air pressure correspondingly must have gone up the building rather than down. |
What ?
So now the "pressure wave" previously induced by the falling floor, now travels upwards. Please explain.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | If you look at the timing it is clear that the building has started to collapse before the "squibs" appear at the top. |
Not true.
If you look at WTC1, WTC2 or WTC7 some of the "pressure waves" that you say may have caused dust to be emitted from air vents occurs way before the "collapse" begins and, as you have admitted many floors below.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | In any case it would be bizarre if demolition charges were going off at the top of the building resulting in a collapse at the bottom. |
It is bizarre that you are suggesting that demolition charges going off at the top did not mean that demolition charges were not also going off at the bottom.
Regardless of your attempt to wriggle out of your "pressure wave" obligations, please continue with your scenario . . .
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan.
Last edited by Mark Gobell on Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:38 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | My, you are getting confused!
The fireball occurs when the aircraft hit the tower, the pressure wave when it collapsed, an hour later, long after any jet fuel had burnt off. |
But I thought you said that the "pressure wave" takes the path of least resistance ?
Surely then, it's jealous lover would have done the same.
Evidently, it did.
The massive fireball of jet fuel that we all saw, exploded in a fury outside the towers.
In the open air.
So how did the jilted "pressure wave" not do the same ?
The point is, they never met or split up in the lobby Bushy, because according to you they travel where there is least resistance.
You really cannot have it both ways. Can you ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | If your ceiling falls in your hermetically sealed room it will never reach the floor, it will come to rest in a position where the air pressure balances its weight. |
So how did the "pressure wave" begin then ?
If not hermetically sealed, why did your "pressure wave" not escape through the gaps at the sides of the falling floor that otherwise, must have fell in a single piece of steel and concrete with no gaps at the side, which you say, would have resulted in the floor not even falling, and why indeed did it not escape through the aperture created by the fireball that exploded into the open air, whilst simultaneously trying to beat it's date to the lobby ?
You really can't have it both ways can you ? Hours apart or days apart. The elephant trap still stands Bushy.
| bushwacker wrote: | | However, I beg leave to doubt your theory that plastic cups in the WTC towers would significantly impede the falling floors, as well as whether a pressure wave decides its own direction or falls in love. |
I did, generously give you lots of examples of resistance that would decay the "collapse" time. I only tried to remind you that there would be some. Including as you know:
| Quote: | | air resistance, "stubborn friction", sagging and bending steel, concrete, masonry, shag pile carpet tiles, office furniture, recalcitrant desks and furniture, filing cabinets, computers, coat stands, ventilation systems, plumbing, electrical installations, pens, plastic cups, oh, and crushing human beings and other anomalies occupying the space in which the "pressure wave", already a quarter of a second old, now has to decide which way to turn and how quickly. |
But you chose plastic cups. Which was intended to be a small, insignificant adjunct to the many certainties that caused resistance to the time taken for your, as yet, single floor to "collapse".
You chose to ridicule a joke about plastic cups, ignoring the other, massive obstructions.
Ignoring all of that ignorance.
We are now, with 2 partially intact floors, with no upward air escape through an intact floor, or air gappy rubble, with or without walls, almost a half second, for two storeys into the "collapse" of one of the twin towers and the world still wants to know where your "pressure wave" is going and how.
Please continue with your "pressure wave" scenario, including any open or shut doors as you may choose . . . .
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan.
Last edited by Mark Gobell on Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The fireball was caused by the explosion of jet fuel which was already travelling horizontally through the building at 300mph, why do you expect that to behave in the same way as air subject to vertical pressure through falling floors?
Your ramblings about jilted lovers make as little sense as your numerology. Unless you are able to make whatever points in have in a more coherent form there is no point in trying to answer you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | | The fireball was caused by the explosion of jet fuel which was already travelling horizontally through the building at 300mph, why do you expect that to behave in the same way as air subject to vertical pressure through falling floors? |
Now that's interesting.
The horizontal fireball was travelling at 300mph you say. It blew out windows and surrounding walls did it not ?
So what speed was the vertical fireball "travelling" that went down all the way to the lobby ?
Was it also able to blow out windows and stuff on the way ?
If it did then your "pressure wave" has an even more difficult tale to tell Bushy.
We've only just discussed one, maybe two "partially intact floors" haven't we ?
So which floor fell first then ?
Above or below the horizontal fireball line ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Your ramblings about jilted lovers make as little sense as your numerology. Unless you are able to make whatever points in have in a more coherent form there is no point in trying to answer you. |
I'm a tad unsure about what it is you don't understand.
Unless, of course, like before you're trying to duck the argument.
OK let's try again.
You have said that the "pressure wave" takes the path of least resistance.
So, given that your "horizontal fireball" is also claimed to be a downward vertical fireball, reaching down into the depths of a carbon fire free lobby, do you think it likely that the "pressure wave" would have vented somewhere en route ? Maybe travelling at bout 300 mph ?
We all seem to agree that the path of least resistance must have been where the "jet fuel" exploded, don't we ?
If that is the case, then the only "vent" for your "pressure wave" must have been just there.
If it wasn't then it must have been the same "path of least resistance" that it's jealous lover took earlier, down a stair well or lift shaft, presumably at about 300 mph, maybe even blowing out windows and walls.
Or, maybe someone opened a window.
So, where did the collapse that caused the "pressure wave" start then Bushy ?
Above or below the jet fuel explosion that created the "path of least resistance" to the "pressure wave" ?
You can't have it both ways. Can you ?
Not even a half second into the "pressure wave" scenario and not even beyond the floor where you first claimed it might have began and you're ready to throw in the towel ?
Are you shying away from your "pressure wave" roadmap now ?
I was expecting that you, of all people, would not offer the path of least resistance Bushy.
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | The fireball was caused by the explosion of jet fuel which was already travelling horizontally through the building at 300mph, why do you expect that to behave in the same way as air subject to vertical pressure through falling floors? |
Now that's interesting.
The horizontal fireball was travelling at 300mph you say. It blew out windows and surrounding walls did it not ?
So what speed was the vertical fireball "travelling" that went down all the way to the lobby ?
Was it also able to blow out windows and stuff on the way ?
If it did then your "pressure wave" has an even more difficult tale to tell Bushy.
We've only just discussed one, maybe two "partially intact floors" haven't we ?
So which floor fell first then ?
Above or below the horizontal fireball line ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Your ramblings about jilted lovers make as little sense as your numerology. Unless you are able to make whatever points in have in a more coherent form there is no point in trying to answer you. |
I'm a tad unsure about what it is you don't understand.
Unless, of course, like before you're trying to duck the argument.
OK let's try again.
You have said that the "pressure wave" takes the path of least resistance.
So, given that your "horizontal fireball" is also claimed to be a downward vertical fireball, reaching down into the depths of a carbon fire free lobby, do you think it likely that the "pressure wave" would have vented somewhere en route ? Maybe travelling at bout 300 mph ?
We all seem to agree that the path of least resistance must have been where the "jet fuel" exploded, don't we ?
If that is the case, then the only "vent" for your "pressure wave" must have been just there.
If it wasn't then it must have been the same "path of least resistance" that it's jealous lover took earlier, down a stair well or lift shaft, presumably at about 300 mph, maybe even blowing out windows and walls.
Or, maybe someone opened a window.
So, where did the collapse that caused the "pressure wave" start then Bushy ?
Above or below the jet fuel explosion that created the "path of least resistance" to the "pressure wave" ?
You can't have it both ways. Can you ?
Not even a half second into the "pressure wave" scenario and not even beyond the floor where you first claimed it might have began and you're ready to throw in the towel ?
Are you shying away from your "pressure wave" roadmap now ?
I was expecting that you, of all people, would not offer the path of least resistance Bushy. |
The jet fuel fireball occurred on a floor that was simultaneously subject to the plane crashing through it, whether windows and walls were blown out by the fireball or the debris, who can say.
Some part of the fireball also went vertically down the liftshafts, as you say. It caused considerable damage, as this account shows:
Firefighter Peter Blaich
As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didnt recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. Thats when Lieutenant Foti said oh, thats the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if youre camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.
The same thing happened to the elevators in the main lobby. They were basically blown out. I dont recall if I actually saw people in there.
What got me initially in the lobby was that as soon as we went in, all the windows were blown out, and there were one or two burning cars outside. And there were burn victims on the street there, walking around. We walked through this giant blown-out window into the lobby.
There was a lady there screaming that she didnt know how she got burnt. She was just in the lobby and then next thing she knew she was on fire. She was burnt bad. And somebody came over with a fire extinguisher and was putting water on her.
Thats the first thing that got me. That and in front of one of the big elevator banks in the lobby was a desk and I definitely made out one of the corpses to be a security guard because he had a security label on his jacket. Im assuming that maybe he was at a table still in a chair and almost completely incinerated, charred all over his body, definitely dead. And you could make out like a security tag on his jacket. And I remember seeing the table was melted, but he was still fused in the chair and that elevator bank was melted, so I imagine the jet fuel must have blown right down the elevator shaft and I guess caught the security guard at a table, I guess at some type of checkpoint.
What you intend to say by this meaning the pressure wave has an even more difficult tale to tell, I have no idea.
The first floor to fall was the floor above the main fire floor, so yes the pressure wave started in the same area as the fireball, and travelled down the liftshafts in the same way, some doors or windows damaged by the fireball may have been the path of least resistance of the pressure wave, why do you find that difficult? Why do you appear not to accept that when a floor of a building falls it pushes air out of the way?
Why you would expect the vertical speed of the pressure wave to be the same as the horizontal speed given to the jet fuel by the plane is another mystery.
Ramble on as much as you like about jealous lovers, Gobble, it simply prevents you making any sort of a coherent point, but perhaps it is just intended to mask the fact that you have not actually got one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | | The jet fuel fireball occurred on a floor that was simultaneously subject to the plane crashing through it, whether windows and walls were blown out by the fireball or the debris, who can say. |
The fireball did explode through the sides of the building didn't it ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Some part of the fireball also went vertically down the lift shafts, as you say. |
I'm only repeating the official line here Bushy, for the sake of argument.
| Quote: | | What you intend to say by this meaning the pressure wave has an even more difficult tale to tell, I have no idea. |
I'm just curious that if the fireball that we all did see and that caused so much damage by exploding through the sides of the tower, caused any more explosive damage on it's way down, say to windows and doors etc., thereby creating more "venting opportunities" for your "pressure wave"
| Bushwacker wrote: | | The first floor to fall was the floor above the main fire floor, |
How do you know this ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | so yes the pressure wave started in the same area as the fireball, and travelled down the liftshafts in the same way, some doors or windows damaged by the fireball may have been the path of least resistance of the pressure wave, why do you find that difficult? |
So, once again, how did this "pressure wave" get into the lift shaft then ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Why do you appear not to accept that when a floor of a building falls it pushes air out of the way? |
Well, we're not talking about "a building" yet are we ? We were discussing the point of collapse initiation with a single floor starting to fall.
Why are you skipping ahead to an entire building ?
We can, if you like discuss an entire building but then you'd have no walls and therefore no "pressure wave" would you ?
At the moment the walls supporting an entire "collapsing" floor are still intact aren't they ?
If that first ceiling fell in one single, unbroken piece with no possibility for the air below it to escape upwards through any gaps at it's sides, as in the "world's first hermetically sealed" unbroken ceiling collapse scenario, then I do accept that there would be some air under pressure below it.
All you have to do is prove that this is the case, otherwise you have no "pressure wave" at all.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Why you would expect the vertical speed of the pressure wave to be the same as the horizontal speed given to the jet fuel by the plane is another mystery. |
I'm assuming that two fireballs of jet fuel once ignited, do so at about the same speed. Maybe they don't, I don't really know. Perhaps you could tell me what speed the "downward fireball" travelled at, just to put me right ?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Ramble on as much as you like about jealous lovers, Gobble, it simply prevents you making any sort of a coherent point, but perhaps it is just intended to mask the fact that you have not actually got one. |
Maybe you are finding this difficult to explain.
I still need to hear how your "pressure wave" escapes from an entire floor of a building and enters your escape points such as stair wells and lift shafts.
Please explain this for me.
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | | The jet fuel fireball occurred on a floor that was simultaneously subject to the plane crashing through it, whether windows and walls were blown out by the fireball or the debris, who can say. |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | The fireball did explode through the sides of the building didn't it ? |
But did it blow out the sides of the building or did the plane debris burst through the sides of the building creating holes through which the fireball travelled?
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Some part of the fireball also went vertically down the lift shafts, as you say. |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | I'm only repeating the official line here Bushy, for the sake of argument. |
Are you disputing what the fireman I quoted and many other people saw? Are they part of your grand conspiracy?
| Quote: | | What you intend to say by this meaning the pressure wave has an even more difficult tale to tell, I have no idea. |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | I'm just curious that if the fireball that we all did see and that caused so much damage by exploding through the sides of the tower, caused any more explosive damage on it's way down, say to windows and doors etc., thereby creating more "venting opportunities" for your "pressure wave" |
As I say, whether it could blow out the sides of the building on its own without the damage from the plane debris is an open question
| Bushwacker wrote: | | The first floor to fall was the floor above the main fire floor, |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | How do you know this ? |
From NIST
| Bushwacker wrote: | | so yes the pressure wave started in the same area as the fireball, and travelled down the liftshafts in the same way, some doors or windows damaged by the fireball may have been the path of least resistance of the pressure wave, why do you find that difficult? |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | So, once again, how did this "pressure wave" get into the lift shaft then ? |
The falling floors were not, as in your house, hermetically sealed from the lift shafts. The lift shafts were collapsing along with everything else. As they were only made of plasterboard, they would put up virtually no resistance. The pressure wave would enter at the top.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Why do you appear not to accept that when a floor of a building falls it pushes air out of the way? |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | Well, we're not talking about "a building" yet are we ? We were discussing the point of collapse initiation with a single floor starting to fall.
Why are you skipping ahead to an entire building ?
We can, if you like discuss an entire building but then you'd have no walls and therefore no "pressure wave" would you ? |
I did not talk of an entire building, I talked of a floor of a building, look again.
| Mark Gobell wrote: | At the moment the walls supporting an entire "collapsing" floor are still intact aren't they ?
If that first ceiling fell in one single, unbroken piece with no possibility for the air below it to escape upwards through any gaps at it's sides, as in the "world's first hermetically sealed" unbroken ceiling collapse scenario, then I do accept that there would be some air under pressure below it.
All you have to do is prove that this is the case, otherwise you have no "pressure wave" at all. |
Your problem appears to be that you have no concept of the physics involved. You do not have to have a hermetically sealed collapsing floor to have pressure underneath it. A helicopter does not have to have a hermetically sealed column around its rotor blades, does it? A fixed wing aeroplane can fly without its wings being hermetically sealed. High pressure created by rapidly moving rotors, wings or falling floors does not instantly disperse in an unsealed environment.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Why you would expect the vertical speed of the pressure wave to be the same as the horizontal speed given to the jet fuel by the plane is another mystery. |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | | I'm assuming that two fireballs of jet fuel once ignited, do so at about the same speed. Maybe they don't, I don't really know. Perhaps you could tell me what speed the "downward fireball" travelled at, just to put me right ? |
For the third time, the fireball was moving horizontally with the speed of the plane because the fuel was in the plane and therefore moving at that speed. I have no idea of the vertical speed of the fireball in the lift shafts.
| Bushwacker wrote: | | Ramble on as much as you like about jealous lovers, Gobble, it simply prevents you making any sort of a coherent point, but perhaps it is just intended to mask the fact that you have not actually got one. |
| Mark Gobell wrote: | Maybe you are finding this difficult to explain.
I still need to hear how your "pressure wave" escapes from an entire floor of a building and enters your escape points such as stair wells and lift shafts.
Please explain this for me. |
The floor is not hermetically sealed from the stair wells and lift shafts, the walls surrounding it are collapsing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bushwacker wrote: | | the lift shafts were collapsing along with everything else. As they were only made of plasterboard, they would put up virtually no resistance. The pressure wave would enter at the top. |
The lift shafts were made of plasterboard ?
Have you got that right ?
I'm beginning to see what you're saying now.
When you say "the pressure wave would enter at the top" do you mean at the top of the lift shaft ?
Was the top of the lift shaft on the floor that started to collapse ?
The entire floor of a building starts to collapse, including the lift shaft on that floor, but not the exterior walls, is that correct ?
_________________
The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Chat
Usergroups
Calendar
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
