B.Smith On Holocaust Revisionism.

[Dogsmilk]

Oh for crying out loud...

These are not 'my stats'
As I made clear, these are the stats minuted by the Nazis at the Wannsee conference
It may surprise you to hear I wasn't actually present and had no personal involvement in compiling them.
Now - and think carefully here - do you think
a/The Nazis were making stuff up, like inventing countries, to inflate their figures of Jews and bamboozle future Holocaust deniers.
b/You lack detailed knowledge regarding how the Nazis defined certain territories.

Take your time...

I myself do not profess to be an expert on how the Nazis complied data. I do not profess to be an expert on population demographics.
I do know the figures can be confusing. For example, you cite 400,000 for Germany, but there are speeches from Hitler circa 1935 where he speaks of (IIRC) 2.5 million (though, I hasten to add, this doesn't mean this was accurate even on Nazi defs). Why? Well, for example, a Jew who converted to Christianity would see themselves as a Christian and identify themself as such. To the Nazis - with their racial definition - they were still a Jew. Jewish dad? - you are a Jew. And so on. See the Nuremburg Laws for further information. They even did little charts. Not clear here, but if you're ever moved to, say, actually read a decent history book or something you'll probably come across them.



For your consideration:

[karlos]

Can you not think for yourself?
You are quoting stuff that is part of historic propaganda on both sides.
The only figure you can rightly quote are CENSUS figures

But your quoting of the Almanac has immediately lowered your initial 11,000,000 figure to 9,000,000.

Dont you see for yourself that Ukraine is and was part of the USSR in 1939 so you cannot count the numbers seperately.
Where is the peoples republic of Central Government anyway.

Please to put your mind at rest look up official census figures from the 1930s. And to save effort only look up the countries with the highest known populations.
Germany
Poland
Hungary
Romania
France
USSR
then look up after 1945 figures too because there was a huge amount of displacement.
Example USA numbers will have gone up, Brazil, Argentina, Israel, UK. One example i have already given you is Romania where the number went up.
Now finally after adding up the pre 1939 numbers and the post 1945 numbers you will get an approximate number that may have died during the war.
Again bearing in mind a percentage of this number may have died actually fighting in the war on both sides. You could make a comparison with total population before and after 1939-1945.
Once you have worked out the actual numbers you will not be surprised to find it is significantly less than the often quoted 6,000,000

Second very important point to note is we are talking specifically about Hitler. We are not adding in all the other many occasions that jews have been massacred. Becasue every country in Europe has at times slaughtered the Jews including Britain on 3 seperate occasions.

[Dogsmilk]

So you're now saying Wannsee was propaganda?! I see. I realise the Nazis were cunning devils, but I'm wondering what kind of fiendish psy-op would involve marking your propaganda tracts "Top Secret" and then not showing them to anybody, only allowing them them to surface when a copy survives the war you just lost. Was that all part of the plan?
Your ongoing agonising about the Ukraine (a country with a distinct internal culture and general antipathy towards their Soviet overlords) and conviction the Nazis couldn't possibly have themselves seen it as an area in itself (Cap'n Stelios - knows the Nazis better than they know themselves!) makes me wonder if you are actually aware of the Wannsee Conference. Since you are 100% sure the Holocaust 'is a lie', I have dismissed this as being way too mental; it would be like you closing one of your 'no moon landing' posts with "So this Buzz Aldrin - who was he then?".
It would be nearly as bonkers as flaunting a book you've never actually read but happens to have a sexy title as 'evidence'.

Mind you -

[karlos]

now you are just being silly.
You realise that you have made a c***-up with your figures and rather than correcting them you simply start talking gibberish.
You have done that before on several occasions when you have made mistakes.
Soon you will be threatening to leave the forum again like you have done several times before too.

I dont want you to feel embarrased at your mistakes and i DONT want you to leave the forum, just look up the census figures, do the calculations and clarify for your own peace of mind.
You need DE-PROGRAMMING

[Dogsmilk]

When have I ever threatened to "leave the forum"? I take periodic breaks and often say i should leave this stuff alone (then promptly don't), but I'm not aware of threatening to leave. Are you confusing me with someone else?
I am, nevertheless, genuinely touched you don't want me to leave the forum. You really are a decent chap at heart.

I apologise if my last post came across as gibberish. Perhaps if you wish to assist me in my deprogramming, you would be so kind as to furnish me with the census figures you have found to be so unequivocal. You have previously stated -

[ian neal]

The original article asks a very important question

Why does any of this matter today?

It then presents a pile of nonsense in attempting to answer this question. I will justify why I say it is nonsense if I have to, but rather than argue the toss over just how many jews were murdered by the nazis I would like to know from those who argue so persistently that the holocaust needs open debate why they think this.

Why do you think any of this matters today? What is your strategy or motivation in placing so much emphaisis on the holocaust.

Because unless you can make a good case, I have to question your wisdom of introducing such a sensitive subject on this forum.

[karlos]

[ian neal]

How many Jews do you think were murdered by the nazis stellios? How many I wonder does the author in the article reckon is the 'true' figure? What is the relevence of knowing the 'true' figure? Why is it so important?

[Dogsmilk]

Stelios -

[Dogsmilk]

There is also a strange irony in you right now choosing V as your avatar - given that in the original graphic novel (which is about anarchism vs fascism), the fascist regime in England has...exterminated all the Jews.

[karlos]

Dogsmilk - i have said across many different topics exactly what i think. There certainly was a Holocaust, but it has been twisted and exaggerated and used as a means to extract monies from certain quarters including the German and Swiss taxpayers and some companies.
I have as have others repeatedly provided you with examples of zionist financing of Hitler, of American cooperation in the genocide and of even many secular Jews participating both as collaborators and actual German armed forces.
The reason why the numbers are important is because these numbers have been used to firstly extract large and ongoing payouts even today but secondly it has had the effect of relegating every other genocide into the dustbin of history.
No other genocide/holocaust has seen it's victims or the decendents compensated. No other victims of this genocide have been looked after.
It is estimated that 800,000 Serbs were massacred during the same holocaust. Which has also been documented and ongoing resentment from that probably led to the genocide of the Bosnians recently who too were denied reparation even though we all saw it on our tv screens on a daily basis.
This is why it is important for THE holocaust to be ranked alongside all the holocausts and for all victims to be treated equally.
When i was at school 4 million was the oft quoted number. Fairly recently it was upped to 6 million. Now the lawyers are upping it again. But as i have seen census figures and compared them with numbers of survivors i know that these numbers are wrong.
Another issue is when should a victim be classed as a victim of genocide?
I will provide another example.
The regime in Romania engaged on it's own drive against it's minorities which included Roma gypsies and Jews and Turks. On what basis would their actions be included in the German numbers?
Croatia, Hungary, Romania, USSR are all known to have carried out their own acts of 'ethnic cleansing' yet today we hear only the one story.
Is it because these others do not have the same ability to pay compensation as the Germans do?
Even Poland carried out its own massacre against Ukrainians when they reclaimed territory.
Is what is occuring todauy in Iraq not another Holocaust in the making?

When is a victim a victim of the genocide and not a victim of an act of war?
Bialystok which was quoted by Dogsmilk who used a totally innacurate number was an area invaded by the German forces. Several thousand Jews sought refuge in the main synagogue but unfortunately were massacred.
But are they victims of the holocaust or victims of an act of war?
I ask that open question for obvious reasons.

What i also fail to accept is that the people who caused the holocaust were never punished. People like Herbert Walker Bush, JD Rockefeller, Rothschild, Avril Harriman, etc. IBM actually supplied the means to segregate populations. Even the Vatican supplied finance for the war machine. Why have they escaped inquisition?

What about the British Labour MPs who blocked attempts to evacuate Jews to Mauritous?
What about the Swiss based zionist leader Sali Meyer who blocked attempts by Jews to enter Switzerland as escapees?
What about the American regime which did not grant a single entry visa to Jews wishing to escape?
Von Broun whose V1 and V2 rockets caused death and destruction here in the UK was rewarded with a fat contract to work for - sorry - control NASA and rip the US taxpayer off billions.
Did you guys know that our current US president had many cohorts like Karl Rove whose father was a Nazi officer. Our current Pope was a anti aircraft gunner during the war yet today he is worshipped.

So lets be honest about the whole historic debate.


It is all well and good for people to beat the drums but never forget who the real villains were and also do not forget the other victims.

[Dogsmilk]

You have made some genuinely interesting points here and there is a fair bit I more or less agree with, and will respond in detail later. However, I feel moved to point out -

[karlos]

Wouldn't it be nice if all the victims and their families recieved EQUAL amounts of compensation including the Roma gypsies, the gays, the disabled, the Serbs, etc?
Dont forget Hitler even killed his own cousins who were disabled.
But just imagine if the Bosnians got paid and the Armenians and everyone else.
Imagine how peaceful the world would become. Dont you think that the Israelis would hesitate before buldozing a Palestinian house if they knew they would have to pay compansation. Do you think America would slaughter a million Iraqis if they knew that one day they would have to pay compensation to the families of the people they had killed? How many were burnt by Napalm in Vietnam or Agent Orange?
Where is their compensation?

This is why there must be equality in the world. By bringing just recognition to ALL the victims of the holocaust and ALL holocausts we set a marker in international law that all men are equal and no crime will go unpunished.
Unless the whole truth is openly discussed today's injustices will continue.

[karlos]

By the way i just heard David Icke talk about operation PAPERCLIP where America smuggled leading Nazis out of Germany and set them up in the USA and South America.
People like Joseph Mengele and Von Braun.
What did the Wiesenthal Centre do to get these people brought to justice?

It is never denied in any quarter that there were many Jewish soldiers and officers not only in the German Army 150,000 according to an actual former Jewish officer, but also in the Romanian and Hungarian armed forces which carried out their own seperate acts of genocide against the Jews.
Why are these people not punished for their crimes?

Has anyone seen the Spike Lee film currently on SKY 'the Inside Man' with Clive Owen?
The plot of the film is about a rich New York Jewish banker who was also a Nazi collaborator.
Spike Lee is an award winning film make who tackles difficult subjects.
The film is based on fact as their were many Jewish collaborators and financiers who backed Hitler.
Why are they not brought to justice and forced to pay compensation too?

Prescot Bush and JD Rockefeller are only the tip of the iceberg.

[ian neal]

Now if you want to revisit the events of WWII and show their relevance to today's events and the neo-con psychos, this route (Operation Paperclip, the nazi links to the CIA, etc) is far more important and relevent IMO than arguing the toss over the numbers of Jewish deaths (with all the nasty baggage of the 'holocaust revisionist' (HR) movement). As long as HR is associated with the likes of David Duke and until someone can tell me why it is so damned important, I want nothing to do with HR what ever the truth may be.

Now investigating Prescott Bush and western business links to the nazi war machine.

Investigating Hitler's life and who was behind his rise to power

Showing the links between what the Nazi scientists were working on (anti-gravity - foo fighters) and CIA black ops since WWII

Investigating the numerous claims of false flag terrorism (Reichstag, Pearl Harbour)

Investigating the truth behind Nagasaki and Hiroshima

Investigating the nazis obcession with the occult and how GWB and the bonesmen have inherited this obcession

And on and on

These are the true stories about WWII that are immediately relevent to today.

[rodin]

[rodin]

For Ian

Max Network...

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-War-Against-Jews-Espionage/dp/0312156480/

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/randy/swas4.htm

http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/randy/swas1.htm

I have seen orange balls as described here. Their appearance co-incided with electrical disturbances. I don't know what they were...

http://www.project1947.com/articles/foo.htm

Foo Fighters were unlikely to have been 'secret Nazi weapons'.

Holoco$t

Using mainstream sources for world Jewish population I note just over 15 million between the World wars (stable) and 14 million from 1970 to present day. The deficit due to WW2 is 1- 1.5 million. The Red Cross says that 300,000 perished in Germany. Since we know the Auschwitz figures were faked, and that the only oven exhibit was built by the Soviets after the war, and since the Holocaust was used to create Israel, and since a so-called prophecy that 6 million would perish had to be fulfilled to fulfil the Rothschild plan to populate Palestine with Eastern Europeans, one has to conclude that the Red Cross and not world Jewry is telling the truth here.

[ian neal]

[Dogsmilk]

[zoomer]

ALL that really should concern the intelligent person is that humans can do such evil to others, because of what they believe, stats etc pale into insignificance if you yourself, or your loved ones suffered what happens when such evil is in control

most so-called Holocaust revisionists aren't expelling all their effort to get to the roots of evil, but to re-demonize their favourite scapegoat, the Jews, and the Gays, and the Blacks. Everything that is 'other' to them

An example of that attitude: I recently saw in the U'S news about a young black girl at a school over there, who, because she dropped some cake, and having been told by the 'nazi' security there to pick it all up, left some crumbs. This meant that a big ugly fat nazi KKK scum bag/security man is seen flattening her on a table, surrounded by people and staff, and breks the young girl's arm putting handcuffs on her!!!

Another young black student who was simply filming this outrage on his mobile is also seen, on the floor with a big ugly fat nazi KKK /security man on him, and hye gets arrested.

When the girl's mum rightfully complains to the school's principle, she is charged with assaulting security and is put in prison!
Then we see the school principle make this sickening speech where she sees no wrong done, and gets in a one-up about how the school is for ex cellence

I noticed the video wasn't from Youtube, so I went to youtube and searched 'black racism', and found this video, and sent a message to the subscriber, inquiring if they'd put up this video (his video was actually ABOUT some blacks in a shop ignoring a white shopper. Ie., it was BLACK racism, right?

So anyhow, I get an abusive reply telling me what I can go and do. Lesson being that this person is NOT in any way concerned with exploring and exposing racism, which can be done by all kinds of people of different skin tones, and beliefs. NO. His vile aganda was just pointing the finger at BLACK people as being the only ones who can be racist.

Well thats how I feel about so-called Holocaust revisionism with its emphasis on figures of people killed, as though if it WAS 400, 000 that that is irrelevant, and not worthy of any concern. After all , it's only 'JEWS', right?

[wepmob2000]

Thanks to Dogsmilk and Zoomer for their excellent and illuminating posts.

[karlos]

[ian neal]

Going back to the original article, a key problem I have with its argument is that the holocaust is in some way uniquely significant, whilst I see WWII as just another war. A war that has an important hidden dimension to it but WWII is not unique in this. Many other wars and genocides also have an important hidden dimensions to them.

For example, US and French complicity in the Rwandan genocide has just as many lessons.

[Dogsmilk]

[karlos]

Going back to the problem with the holocaust overshadowing all other holocausts.
We have all forgotten the holocaust conducted by the Japanese with American collusion against the Chinese, British, Koreans, and others.
Auschwitz in China - Japan's secret human body experiments in the notorious biological warfare factory 731. Atrocities like live operations on civilians still alive were conducted on a regular basis but were concealed from the world through a secret deal with the USA after the war.

You will see how the Japanese conducted live-body experiments on the living Chinese to take out their infected lungs, kidney and see them blood to death, and how the Americans classified & covered up the whole 731 truth in exchange for invaluable data on live human body experiements.

The primary reason why Japan is still widely hated in Asia is their stubborn pride not to acknowledge their wartime atrocities and instead accuse (the Chinese) of "fanning anti-Japanese propaganda" among the (Chinese) people. In a country where over 30 million people were mercilessly killed by the occupying Japanese and the remnants of the terrifying Unit 731 (more cruel than the Nazi concentration camps) still standing in Harbin, how could they accept repeated denials of the Jap Government?

Even after the Tokyo courts repeatedly refused to admit the existence of Unit 731 and compensate for the victims of the 731 biological warfare live experiments, history will not allow such human atrocities to be easily brushed away. Now do you see why it is so important to debunk the holocaust so that all holocausts can be looked at and all victims can be compensated and all villains brought to justice.
All of mankind has bee denied justice because of the quick witted actions of a group of New York lawyers.
[youtube]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvcs5rA95FU[/youtube]
 [youtube]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MENIqdfkZkA[/youtube]

[Dogsmilk]

[karlos]

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/genociderockefellernazis2apr03.shtml
stuff about Rockefeller
ps: without his oil - no German war machine

Warburg was a Jewish banker who financed Hitler

[Dogsmilk]

I am slightly confused as to how your post relates to the original question:

[karlos]

We have posted te same things over and over again
it has been very well documented that the Rockefellers supplied oil and money for Hitler. You are actually wrong about other oil companies because firstly germany has no oil of its own even today so everything had to be imported. Without oil you would have no Luftwaffe, no Panzer divisions and no war machine. To continue supplying oil all the way through the war when your own countrymen are being killed is not only criminal but treason.
Why is it you being a holocaust supporter for want of a better expression never like to apportion blame correctly. Without Rockefeller's billions and Rockefeller's oil there would probably have been no Holocaust and no World War 2.
Yet the Rockefeller family is today richer than ever and more powerful and also pays very little tax.
The so called charitable foundations actually funded Mengeles research which has been described above. Please just call a spade a spade and condemn the Rockefellers as war criminals.

Have you never studied history?
Germany in 1929 was completely bankrupt. Not a brass farthing was left in the coffers.
So who provided the money and resources to turn this into the worlds biggest and most powerful ever war machine?
Warburg, Rockefeller, Harriman, Bush, IBM, Ford and amongst others the Vatican. And behind the scenes Rothschild.
Why did none of the victims New York lawyers want to sue any of these?

Dont you see why it is so very important to study the holocaust? Because the same people who were responsible for it are still very much around and are still pulling our strings.
Holocaust revisionism, if you call it, is about getting to the truth and cutting through the propaganda.
It is undisputable that the numbers have been altered and many victims have been airbrushed from history. but it is also a fact that the real culprits are still at large. Why do you think organisations such as Naturei Karta are so determined to bring the murderers to justice?
Many top ranking nazis ended up running things like Nasa. mengele the most evil butcher in history ended up in America protected by his boss Rockefeller. Even others like Karl Rove's father was a nazi officer anmongst several others. So i would say it is VERY relevant to study the holocaust and learn from it.

Or you could simply stick your fingers in your ears and sing lah lah lah lah.

[Dogsmilk]