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astro3
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 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject: Alleged discrepancies in July 7 witness testimony |
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Alleged discrepancies of July 7 witness testimony
Title editted by moderator
For the Southbound Piccadilly line journeying from King’s Cross to Russell Square, on July 7th 2005, the initial announcement was, that a that a bomb had gone off by the front set of double doors of the first carriage. That appeared on both the Met and BBC websites. It was contradicted by Rachel of North London (hereinafter, Rachel North) on the grounds that she had been standing there. Her initial comment was,
| Quote: | | When the blast went off I fell to the left into a heap of people, by the left-hand set of doors. When I started hearing the bomb was in my carriage, I flipped. |
In other words, she emerged from the train having no idea that a bomb was supposed to have gone off in her carriage, and it was a big shock to her when she learned that.
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When PC Bryan arrived at the Russell Square tube station entrance, he found that:
| Quote: | | "As soon as I got into the booking hall there were five or six people that had managed to get up into the booking hall that looked like they had been involved in an explosion. Their clothes were shredded. They all had blackened faces, hair standing on end and none of them knew that they had been involved in an explosion. A few people thought they had been electrocuted." |
These survivors have to be from the first carriage, because those were the only ones who evacuated to Russell Square - the rest trooped back to King’s Cross (the Piccadilly line tunnell had a mere six inches between carriage and wall). It was evidently not their view that any bomb had gone off, and they had to be informed of that by a PC, and we may surmise that this encounter happened after the Tavistock Square bomb had exploded: once that had detonated, it provided the image of a bomb, which could then explain the terrible things that had happened on the tube.
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We get no hint that anyone was able to inspect the remains of the first carriage, to detect eg a big hole in the floor. That would be a helpful guide to where the blast took place. If the story of a rucksack placed on the floor has any truth in it, then clearly that would have to exist.
Rachel was treated for some glass fragments in her wrist, and eardrums perforated by blast pressure, familiar symptoms of the implosions which so many witnesses on the tube reported that morning. She has since conjectured that the blast went off ten feet away from her, and that she owes her life to there having been ten persons standing between her and the bomb.
No testimony exists from anyone in the first carriage, of seeing or experiencing a bomb going off. I hereby invite any members of the ‘King’s Cross United’ survivors of the trauma, who have been meeting up for two years now, to provide such testimony if they feel able to.
The sole independent testimony from a victim, concerning What Really Happened in that first carriage, comes from a Youtube video! This video shows two girls, blood-spattered and bandaged up, recalling how they had been in the first carriage, when they experienced ‘an explosion overhead' and saw the 'orange light' outside the train i.e. on the wall. They are being interviewed in Brunswick Square, before being ushered back to their hotel where the wounded were being held, and we see them walk back towards Russell Square. This may be the only authentic testimony from the first carriage!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4JD6Pnogvc&eurl= youtube
The second carriage
The testimony of those two (unnamed) girls is supported by two testimonies from the second carriage.
Mr John Wade stated: " | Quote: | | We had just got through King's Cross and I heard an almighty 'boom, boom' and the carriage stopped immediately. The electricity went completely and the carriage filled with soot. "We could just make out what was in front but nothing else. The explosion was on the ceiling of the carriage in front and all the glass from the carriage had caved in. People were trying to kick the windows in. |
Steve Lovegrove was right up at the front of the second carriage and was facing the first carriage when IT happened. He was the one person in the second carriage to be I injured. He described how the door | Quote: | | was buckled and swollen in towards us and jammed shut, the top half was blown through and scattered on the floor. It was so dark it was impossible to see what was happening in there, I could see part of the roof hanging down. |
There is a terrific contrast here with the Edgware Road blast, which comes from under the carriage and lifts the train up off the rails. Holes (plural) appear in the floor of the carriage whereas nothing of the sort appears for the Piccadilly line blast, it seems to be just the roof and windows which there implode.
Other Carriages
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when one considers how the Horror struck the other carriages in that Piccadilly line train, further away from the front. Thus Eamon Spelman, 47, a carpet dealer, was a passenger on the King's Cross train who was in the third car, behind the two most seriously damaged.
| Quote: | | My whole body was shaking. I felt like I was being electrocuted. The guy next to me lost his leg. I could see the bone. I was trying to help him, trying to keep him awake. Another guy opposite was slumped over someone else. He was dead. www.sundayherald.com/50709 |
Note the electrical experience as quite a few others reported.
Survivors from the first carriage were taken to Russell Square while all others were taken back to King’s Cross. The single tube line was narrow and no-one could walk past the train. Here is the testimony of Sergeant Steve Betts a British Transport police officer -and Warning this is disturbing. He was one of the first to reach the scene, walking down from King’s Cross. Inside the first carriage he comes to (ie the carriage furthest from the driver at the other end), Betts sees "people with limbs missing, huge open wounds with their organs showing" and he hears people "crying out and moaning and asking for help". It's like the end of the world, he thinks. But then he thinks, "Do your job". He climbs over dead bodies, trying to work out who is still alive, and finds a man who has lost his leg below the knee. To reach him, the policeman has to get past a pile of clothes. As he tries to do that, the pile of clothes moans for help. It is a woman. All her limbs had been blown off. (10th July 2005, The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298112.ece)
So if it wasn’t a bomb what was it? Let’s not hop to conclusions.
Sentence removed by moderator.
We should respect Rachel because of her wonderful attempts to get an impartial public enquiry, although perhaps if she reads this the reason may dawn upon her as to why that cannot be permitted. Truth is not an easy thing to find and illusion is a lot easier to reach.
Out of the Tunnell by Rachel of North London 2007 |
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TonyGosling
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fictional Nature of Rachel North’s Story |
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| astro3 wrote: | Other Carriages
The totally fictional nature of Rachel North’s story becomes more evident when one considers how the Horror struck the other carriages in that Piccadilly line train, further away from the front. Thus Eamon Spelman, 47, a carpet dealer, was a passenger on the King's Cross train who was in the third car, behind the two most seriously damaged. |
Some accounts place him in the second car.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | My whole body was shaking. I felt like I was being electrocuted. The guy next to me lost his leg. I could see the bone. I was trying to help him, trying to keep him awake. Another guy opposite was slumped over someone else. He was dead. www.sundayherald.com/50709 |
Note the electrical experience as quite a few others reported.
Survivors from the first carriage were taken to Russell Square while all others were taken back to King’s Cross. The single tube line was narrow and no-one could walk past the train. Here is the testimony of Sergeant Steve Betts a British Transport police officer -and Warning this is disturbing. He was one of the first to reach the scene, walking down from King’s Cross. Inside the first carriage he comes to (ie the carriage furthest from the driver at the other end) |
You are misrepresenting the quoted article. It says: "Inside the first carriage, Betts sees..." It does not state it was the "first he comes to," and since it is already established that the affected car was the first one, this is what it is obviously referring to, rather than the last/sixth/rear car, as you suggest.
| Quote: | | Betts sees "people with limbs missing, huge open wounds with their organs showing" and he hears people "crying out and moaning and asking for help". It's like the end of the world, he thinks. But then he thinks, "Do your job". He climbs over dead bodies, trying to work out who is still alive, and finds a man who has lost his leg below the knee. To reach him, the policeman has to get past a pile of clothes. As he tries to do that, the pile of clothes moans for help. It is a woman. All her limbs had been blown off. (10th July 2005, The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298112.ece) |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Fictional Nature of Rachel North’s Story |
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| astro3 wrote: | Other Carriages
The totally fictional nature of Rachel North’s story becomes more evident when one considers how the Horror struck the other carriages in that Piccadilly line train, further away from the front. Thus Eamon Spelman, 47, a carpet dealer, was a passenger on the King's Cross train who was in the third car, behind the two most seriously damaged. |
Some accounts place him in the second car.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | My whole body was shaking. I felt like I was being electrocuted. The guy next to me lost his leg. I could see the bone. I was trying to help him, trying to keep him awake. Another guy opposite was slumped over someone else. He was dead. www.sundayherald.com/50709 |
Note the electrical experience as quite a few others reported.
Survivors from the first carriage were taken to Russell Square while all others were taken back to King’s Cross. The single tube line was narrow and no-one could walk past the train. Here is the testimony of Sergeant Steve Betts a British Transport police officer -and Warning this is disturbing. He was one of the first to reach the scene, walking down from King’s Cross. Inside the first carriage he comes to (ie the carriage furthest from the driver at the other end) |
You are misrepresenting the quoted article. It says: "Inside the first carriage, Betts sees..." It does not state it was the "first he comes to," and since it is already established that the affected car was the first one, this is what it is obviously referring to, rather than the last/sixth/rear car, as you suggest.
| Quote: | | Betts sees "people with limbs missing, huge open wounds with their organs showing" and he hears people "crying out and moaning and asking for help". It's like the end of the world, he thinks. But then he thinks, "Do your job". He climbs over dead bodies, trying to work out who is still alive, and finds a man who has lost his leg below the knee. To reach him, the policeman has to get past a pile of clothes. As he tries to do that, the pile of clothes moans for help. It is a woman. All her limbs had been blown off. (10th July 2005, The Independent http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298112.ece) |
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karlos
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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numeral
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I must correct one thing that I was responsible for. It was not Eamon Spelman who said the words quoted below. I made the mistake about 2 years ago and it still lives on.
Gracia Hormigos was in the first carriage.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/08/nbomb1 08.xml
| Quote: | Still shaking and clearly in shock, one survivor spoke of trying to keep a passenger who had lost his leg from slipping into unconsciousness, while knowing that another man opposite had died.
"We were only a few minutes out of King's Cross when this thing happened," said Gracia Hormigos, 58, a housekeeper from Tottenham, north London, who was on her way to work.
"My whole body was shaking. I felt like I was being electrocuted. The guy next to me lost his leg. I could see the bone. I was trying to help him, trying to keep him awake.
"Another guy opposite was slumped over someone else. He was dead." |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| stelios wrote: | | Staraker, you have again avoided the issue of a criminal foreign company being awarded by Ken Livingstone a contract to protect me and you and our fellow Londoners. |
I didn't "avoid" these assertions for the simple reason that they were not even vaguely alluded to in astro3's post, to which I was replying.
Stellios quote removed by moderator
Why does that sound like the equivalent of offering somebody and hankerchief after you've broken their nose? I wonder if you're really as bit a twat as you come across here.
| Quote: | Stelios quote removed by moderator...
Staraker - you can think outside the box, you dont have to apologise for every missing bit of evidence why not just call a spade a spade? |
LOL! It seems to me that you are prime example of someone trapped in a box of their own making. You started off with a baseless conviction of what you think happened, and try to retrofit every bit of evidence around it, accepting those that "fit", and rejecting anything that doesn't. That isn't investigation, it's fabrication. It's also ironic that you are very keen on dissecting something to death if you think it supports doesn't your wacky theories, yet you act like a scared child whenever someone else so much as scartches the surface to expose your own misinterpretation or ignorance.
| Quote: | | The Israeli companies who are in charge of our security, the ex CIA guys who are in charge of the network and the various security consultants who were all involved need to be brought to account. |
Prove it. Personally, I find it hilarious that people like you weave more and more ludicrously elaborate conspiracies to "explain" something that could have been - and probably was - done by less than a dozen people. Fake injuried victims, fake witnesses, fake explosions.... It's all bs. Do you really think if the people you think are responsible are, they'd do it in a vastly complex way that would involve scores if not hundreds of people being knowlingly complicit in the deception, any of whom could blow the whistle?
| Quote: | Stelios quote removed by moderator.........
There is a growing number of people who reject the official story and it will be very difficult to fob everyone off with more lies and excuses. |
Heavy irony.
Last edited by Nick Cooper on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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karlos
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Fake Victims?
Ok you work for the NHS who is headband man and which hospital was he treated at and what were the nature of his injuries?
Ofcourse he is a fake victim.
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I am not a heartless t**t as you believe, i want justice for the victims and i want better compensation for the victims families and the survivors and i have put my money where my mouth is. But i want people like Headband man and Richard Jones to be brought in front of a judge. And i also do not have sympathy for people like Rachel who have used this event to carve out a career for themselves.
If she once appeared on tv or in print and stated that there are holes in the official story and there is zero evidence against the four alleged, then i would back her to the hilt. But instead her and another piggybacker Peter Zimonjic have released books and written articles etc. I suggest you read Peter Zimonjic's articles in the Telegraph. Talk about Islamophobic this guy is way off the Nick Griffin scale.
Anyway nobody denies that over 700 people were injured some very badly. Nobody denies that 52 people from 23 different countries were killed that day. And nobody denies that there were bombs so dont try and pull that.
People do question everything else about who planted the bombs, who knew about it in advance and who ordered the cover up and the false story. Many injured and many victims families as you well know also dispute the official version of events.
And you are claiming that the plot will have involved loads of people and one would spill the beans. but the official story is that FOUR people did this. So why would it take more people to plant the bombs, disable the bus cctv, redirect the trains and lay a false trail.
Dont forget the ex MOSSAD agents are already in charge of the cctv, they already have access to the underground. It would take a handful of agents because everyone else would be believing they are on a drill in a training exercise.
Have you considered the short selling of Sterling that occured a few days prior to 7/7? People made money from this operation.
If you went on the tube today and planted a empty McDonalds bag on the tube (which happened this week at Waterloo i believe and caused a huge panic) how many people would be involved in your conspiracy?
It takes one person to make and lay a bomb.
The UNABOMBER in the USA showed us that.
So how many operatives does it take to lay 4 bombs and lay a false trail?
So to answer your question yes i think it was less than a dozen people.
Blair was one of them certainly.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Another thesis is that the UK authorities were warned of an attack by overseas agencies. it has been reported that Saudi intelligence warned of an attack on the London Underground, clearly the israelis knew because they also issued a warning. And clearly MI5 had tabs on two of the alleged bombers who were being watched. So what if the UK authorities simply allowed the attacks to go ahead and closed staions and diverted trains to reduce the number of casualties.
what is your opinion on this?
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astro3
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for these helpful comments. Numeral, why do you believe that Gracia H. was in the first carriage? Your ref. to 9.7.05 article in The Telegraph does not say this. NB, this article is of value as Rachel’s very first testimony: | Quote: | | He (the driver) told us he was trying to have the track turned off so we could walk to the next station. We were passing the information back along the carriages. … When we got out I noticed my wrist was bleeding. All our faces were black…. |
That doesn’t sound like there were piles of dead in the first carriage, or any big hole blasted in its floor, if those in that carriage were busy passing the message back along to other carriages.
NB, yesterday at the CAMPACC meeting, Rachel gave me the link for her excellent speech calling for an independent enquiry. Its on Milan Rai’s site:
www.j-n-v.org/London_Blasts/060712_Rachel_North.htm
I hope that persons of all different positions can agree with what she said there.
All I’m trying to say, is that accounts of damage on the Piccadilly line train sound like most of the damage happened further down away from the first carriage. The 7/7 book One Morning in July - The Man Who Was First on the Scene Tells His Story by Aaron Debnam may have some important stuff on this, if anyone has read it (I haven’t): ‘ | Quote: | | Passengers lay sprawled in each carriage, some nursing wounds, others simply too shocked …’ |
His account makes it sound as if every carriage experienced the blast of … something.
Staraker takes the view that when Sergeant Steve Betts a British Transport police officer said ‘inside the first carriage’ when he had walked from King’s Cross, he actually meant the carriage nearest the front of the train. No-one could walk beside the train, the tunnel was too small, one could only walk through the carriages. My understanding is that after the explosion one could not walk between the first and second carriages (from the front) and that is why all passengers from the front carriage existed via Russell Square and the rest walked back to King’s Cross.
I re-read the Independent report (10 July) and it still sounds to me as if Sgt Betts was describing the carriage nearest to King’s Cross.
Inspector Ray Shields was in a somewhat similar situation to Betts. Here is his account: Shields and his fellow officers dashed down to the track the moment the explosion was heard and began trying to haul out the passengers trapped within the tunnel. 'The scene was chaotic. Only passengers on the King's Cross side of the blast could be hauled out: the vast majority were trapped behind the blast site which had blocked the tunnel entirely. The police on the King's Cross side saw the worst of the damage'. Sergeant Steve Betts, one of the British Transport police officers first to reach the scene, gave a harrowing account of the mayhem. It would be wonderful if someone could interview these two together, Steve Betts and Ray shields, I reckon their two stories really corroborate each other, and this would totally blow apart the official version.
Senior British transport Inspector Ray Shields said | Quote: | | I am not very good at enclosed spaces at the best of times and we had to climb over bodies and body parts to try and help people. I found a man and his leg had been blown off below the knee. There was another body next to him. There was also what I thought was a pile of clothes but as I passed to try and get to the man, it moaned and asked me for help. It was a woman. She had all her limbs blown off. I think she died on the concourse. |
Let’s be crystal-clear, this is the King’s Cross end of the train i.e. its rear!
One further account of the first carriage - ie that at the very front of the train, at the Russell Square end - is that of Ray Wright, the tube train driver who got on at King’s Cross and sat right next to the driver Tom Nairn. After the blast, Ray Wright entered the passenger carriage to help passengers get out of the carriage and take them towards Russell Square tube Station. He saw | Quote: | | a sea of blackened faces in a state of total panic. …We were screaming, above the shouting, for everyone to calm down, that we were okay at the front and we were going to get people off. |
He added that, as they were helping people off the train, both he and the driver still thought it was a mechanical or electrical fault. So, nothing he had seen in his helping the traumatised victims in that first carriage led him to believe that a bomb had gone off. Gary Stevens, the Duty manager at Russell Square tube station, describes how he saw Ray Wright when the latter eventually led the passengers down towards ther station: 'it was the driver of train 311 with about 30 or 40 injured customers, who had managed to get out and he led them down the tunnel. Some of them had quite serious head injuries, clothes blown off, things like that...'
Quite serious injuries yes, but nothing like as bad as was experienced further down the train.
Refs: www.julyseventh.co.uk/7-7-kings-cross-russell-square.html |
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numeral
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| astro3 wrote: | Thanks for these helpful comments. Numeral, why do you believe that Gracia H. was in the first carriage? Your ref. to 9.7.05 article in The Telegraph does not say this. NB, this article is of value as Rachel’s very first testimony: | Quote: | | He (the driver) told us he was trying to have the track turned off so we could walk to the next station. We were passing the information back along the carriages. … When we got out I noticed my wrist was bleeding. All our faces were black…. |
That doesn’t sound like there were piles of dead in the first carriage, or any big hole blasted in its floor, if those in that carriage were busy passing the message back along to other carriages.
NB, yesterday at the CAMPACC meeting, Rachel gave me the link for her excellent speech calling for an independent enquiry. Its on Milan Rai’s site:
www.j-n-v.org/London_Blasts/060712_Rachel_North.htm
I hope that persons of all different positions can agree with what she said there.
All I’m trying to say, is that accounts of damage on the Piccadilly line train sound like most of the damage happened further down away from the first carriage. The 7/7 book One Morning in July - The Man Who Was First on the Scene Tells His Story by Aaron Debnam may have some important stuff on this, if anyone has read it (I haven’t): ‘ | Quote: | | Passengers lay sprawled in each carriage, some nursing wounds, others simply too shocked …’ |
His account makes it sound as if every carriage experienced the blast of … something.
Staraker takes the view that when Sergeant Steve Betts a British Transport police officer said ‘inside the first carriage’ when he had walked from King’s Cross, he actually meant the carriage nearest the front of the train. No-one could walk beside the train, the tunnel was too small, one could only walk through the carriages. My understanding is that after the explosion one could not walk between the first and second carriages (from the front) and that is why all passengers from the front carriage existed via Russell Square and the rest walked back to King’s Cross.
I re-read the Independent report (10 July) and it still sounds to me as if Sgt Betts was describing the carriage nearest to King’s Cross.
Inspector Ray Shields was in a somewhat similar situation to Betts. Here is his account: Shields and his fellow officers dashed down to the track the moment the explosion was heard and began trying to haul out the passengers trapped within the tunnel. 'The scene was chaotic. Only passengers on the King's Cross side of the blast could be hauled out: the vast majority were trapped behind the blast site which had blocked the tunnel entirely. The police on the King's Cross side saw the worst of the damage'. Sergeant Steve Betts, one of the British Transport police officers first to reach the scene, gave a harrowing account of the mayhem. It would be wonderful if someone could interview these two together, Steve Betts and Ray shields, I reckon their two stories really corroborate each other, and this would totally blow apart the official version.
Senior British transport Inspector Ray Shields said | Quote: | | I am not very good at enclosed spaces at the best of times and we had to climb over bodies and body parts to try and help people. I found a man and his leg had been blown off below the knee. There was another body next to him. There was also what I thought was a pile of clothes but as I passed to try and get to the man, it moaned and asked me for help. It was a woman. She had all her limbs blown off. I think she died on the concourse. |
Let’s be crystal-clear, this is the King’s Cross end of the train i.e. its rear!
One further account of the first carriage - ie that at the very front of the train, at the Russell Square end - is that of Ray Wright, the tube train driver who got on at King’s Cross and sat right next to the driver Tom Nairn. After the blast, Ray Wright entered the passenger carriage to help passengers get out of the carriage and take them towards Russell Square tube Station. He saw | Quote: | | a sea of blackened faces in a state of total panic. …We were screaming, above the shouting, for everyone to calm down, that we were okay at the front and we were going to get people off. |
He added that, as they were helping people off the train, both he and the driver still thought it was a mechanical or electrical fault. So, nothing he had seen in his helping the traumatised victims in that first carriage led him to believe that a bomb had gone off. Gary Stevens, the Duty manager at Russell Square tube station, describes how he saw Ray Wright when the latter eventually led the passengers down towards ther station: 'it was the driver of train 311 with about 30 or 40 injured customers, who had managed to get out and he led them down the tunnel. Some of them had quite serious head injuries, clothes blown off, things like that...'
Quite serious injuries yes, but nothing like as bad as was experienced further down the train.
Refs: www.julyseventh.co.uk/7-7-kings-cross-russell-square.html |
atro3, you are right to question whether Gracia Hormigos was in the first carriage.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20050710/ai_n14720219/ pg_2
| Quote: | Gracia Hormigos, 58, a housekeeper from Tottenham was on her way to work
"I THOUGHT I'd heard a loud bang, but nobody knew what was happening. We didn't hear any message from the driver, but someone managed to get the doors open because people started pushing out into the tunnel. There was so much shoving, people pulling and pushing at each other and that feeling of panic and terror. |
Which doors were these?
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astro3
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: |
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No deaths in second carriage
Two witnesses in the second carriage testify that no-one was killed in it:
1. Steve Lovegrove, who said: | Quote: | | I was the only person injured in the 2nd carriage … again if you read my account you will know there was a body lying in the junction by the third carriage badly maimed by the train. So there was at least one fatality further back up the tunnel. This has been reported by other people so I can mention it. |
There was a dead body lying in between the 2nd and 3rd carriages, but none in the 2nd carriage. NB, Staraker, he Mr Lovegrove was standing right at the front of the 2nd carriage facing the first, and note his trauma: ‘Part of the door, or something from the front carriage had come through the door and gashed my head from one side to the other, 5 inches long, my skull was visible.’ Maybe some explosive force worked between the carriages? But, that account informs us that no-one could then walk between these two 1st and 2nd carriage, does it not?
2. Mandy Yu of London said it wasn’t so bad:
| Quote: | | I'm very surprised that there were so many deaths claimed at the King's Cross explosion. I was standing at the front of the second carriage and apart from a couple of voices that were screaming and praying, there were no cries for help that indicated serious injury or even death. Especially as many as 21 or more as reported. People were in a state of shock but remained calm. Is there any information on how they died or how the explosion could have killed them? |
(BBC Eye-Witness Diary Extract).
Mandy Yu’s testimony may have been given quite a bit earlier than Mr Lovegrove’s so it may be more reliable. I’d say the deaths she heard reported were all in other carriages, probably further down away from the front.
That’s why I have suggested that the terrible testimony of death and carnage from Eamon Spelman, 47, belongs in the 3rd carriage. If you want to put him in the 2nd carriage, Staraker, you would have to discard the testimonies of Lovegrove and Yu, and are you sure you want to do that? |
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karlos
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| astro3 wrote: | No deaths in second carriage
Two witnesses in the second carriage testify that no-one was killed in it:
1. Steve Lovegrove, who said: | Quote: | | I was the only person injured in the 2nd carriage … again if you read my account you will know there was a body lying in the junction by the third carriage badly maimed by the train. So there was at least one fatality further back up the tunnel. This has been reported by other people so I can mention it. |
There was a dead body lying in between the 2nd and 3rd carriages, but none in the 2nd carriage. |
I'm surprised this body - lying next to the train in the crossover - continues to baffle some people, who try to tie it to cars other than the first. Taking into acount the length of 1973 stock cars, the distance between the second set of double doors on car 1 and the coupling between cars 2 & 3 is approximately 23.3 metres.
The average speed to travel the 920 metres between King's Cross and Russell Square is 27.6kph - 7.7 metres per second, but since the crossover is 250 metres from King's Cross, the train would have been exceding it by that stage. The top speed of 1973 stock is 72.4 km per hour (45mph), which is 20.1 metres per second.
Despite witnesses reporting the train stopping immediately, clearly it cannot have gone from even 27.6kph to zero in an instant, but even allowing three or four seconds to decelerate would mean that it would travel further down the tunnel from the point where the explosion occurred, thus anything - or anyone - thrown from the first car could very easily end up lying some 20 or 30 metres further back.
| Quote: | | NB, Staraker, he Mr Lovegrove was standing right at the front of the 2nd carriage facing the first, and note his trauma: ‘Part of the door, or something from the front carriage had come through the door and gashed my head from one side to the other, 5 inches long, my skull was visible.’ Maybe some explosive force worked between the carriages? But, that account informs us that no-one could then walk between these two 1st and 2nd carriage, does it not? |
Does it? There is no description of either of the two doors being buckled or in any way damaged that prevented them from opening. They are, after all, very sturdily constructed, although obviously the window glass and parts of the frame would almost certainly have been blown out.
| Quote: | 2. Mandy Yu of London said it wasn’t so bad:
| Quote: | | I'm very surprised that there were so many deaths claimed at the King's Cross explosion. I was standing at the front of the second carriage and apart from a couple of voices that were screaming and praying, there were no cries for help that indicated serious injury or even death. Especially as many as 21 or more as reported. People were in a state of shock but remained calm. Is there any information on how they died or how the explosion could have killed them? |
(BBC Eye-Witness Diary Extract).
Mandy Yu’s testimony may have been given quite a bit earlier than Mr Lovegrove’s so it may be more reliable. I’d say the deaths she heard reported were all in other carriages, probably further down away from the front. |
Where is the evidence they were in other carriages? There should be dozens of witness to that effect, but there aren't. If other cars were damaged, the fact couldn't be kept secret amongst LU staff, so where are the whistleblowers saying more than just two cars were scrapped?
| Quote: | | That’s why I have suggested that the terrible testimony of death and carnage from Eamon Spelman, 47, belongs in the 3rd carriage. If you want to put him in the 2nd carriage, Staraker, you would have to discard the testimonies of Lovegrove and Yu, and are you sure you want to do that? |
I would suggest that the simple explanation is that Spelman is very confused about what he saw. |
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karlos
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Staraker wrote: | | so where are the whistleblowers? |
How many whistleblowers have there been in history?
Very few. A handful.
So do not regard an absense of whistleblowers as any kind of straw to clutch.
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Prole
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| staraker wrote: | | Does it? There is no description of either of the two doors being buckled or in any way damaged that prevented them from opening. They are, after all, very sturdily constructed, although obviously the window glass and parts of the frame would almost certainly have been blown out. |
The adjoining door between carriages one and two seems to be open:
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Prole
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: |
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From Steve Lovegrove's account:
| Quote: | | .Mark tried to force the door behind us open to get the people out, he told them to stand back so he could kick it through, but couldn’t, it was buckled and swollen in towards us and jammed shut, the top half was blown through and scattered on the floor. It was so dark it was impossible to see what was happening in there, I could see part of the roof hanging down, which prevented us going through the window. Mark was still talking to the people the other side of the door, holding a woman’s hand through the door and reassuring them |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| stelios wrote: | | Staraker wrote: | | so where are the whistleblowers? |
How many whistleblowers have there been in history?
Very few. A handful.
So do not regard an absense of whistleblowers as any kind of straw to clutch. |
That's quite funny coming from you, since you are so quick to use the absence of witnesses of other events to your own ends.
The point is that if there was damage to any cars other than the first and second, other than the windows samshed and doors forced by the passengers, it would have been apparent to the passengers, the members of the emergency services working on the scene both in the immediate aftermath and later, the forensics teams, the LU staff who cleared the tunnel, and those at the depot where cars 3-6 were taken afterwards.
In other words, hundreds of people. It is simply not credible to suggest that substantial damage to cars 3-6 could have been kept secret. |
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karlos
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Do you realise how odd your statement sounds?
WHISTLEBLOWERS are employees or insiders who grass up their colleagues wrongdoings. WITNESSES are quite different.
You do accept that?
| Quote: |
It is simply not credible to suggest that substantial damage to cars 3-6 could have been kept secret. |
I dont think anybody is suggesting that, but again look at the evidence. Where are the train carraiges? Apart from a few very low res photos that have been released as ABC 'exclusives' i am not aware of anyone else having had access to any of the damaged trains. There are a handful of photos and that is it. So whatever happeneed that day is most definately being kept secret.
Three trains plus aparantly a train passing the other way were damaged, one bus. I would say less than 6 photos have appeared in the media and no reporter has nosed around the wreckage of any of the damage.
As there is no inquests and no inquiry the answer is yes stuff is being kept secret.
Who knows they may melt the carraiges down for scrap?
Hundreds of people are not involved, people who clean the tracks at nightime are going to say what? We saw some dirt and hoovered it up so whats new.
As i keep saying i expect that some witnesses would say "we saw this guy matching the description sitting here" only one person out of 700 injured and countless other non injured survivors has said anything like that and his testimony could be clouded by the fact that he was extremely badly injured and refused adequate compensation.
CCTV is the key missing evidence, you have claimed that some cctv is still on video tape, well then there is even less excuse not to have it.
Whistleblowers would come from the ranks of Transport Police officers, most of who have already told it like they saw it? Or VERINT/ICTS employess - hardly likely. M15 officers? well we know there has been precious few whistleblowers and the jury is still out on whether any information was exposed.
I would say there has been worldwide very few Victor Ostrovsky the ex mossad officer is one example.
I am not aware of any act of mass murder like this and all we have to go on are a few hearsay newspaper quotes and a few foreign media photos. Surely that screams out as being a cover up?
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astro3
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Staraker dismisses my argument with the conjecture that:
| Quote: | The point is that if there was damage to any cars other than the first and second, other than the windows samshed and doors forced by the passengers, it would have been apparent to the passengers, the members of the emergency services working on the scene both in the immediate aftermath and later, the forensics teams, the LU staff who cleared the tunnel, and those at the depot where cars 3-6 were taken afterwards.
In other words, hundreds of people. It is simply not credible to suggest that substantial damage to cars 3-6 could have been kept secret. |
Instead of making such a global judgement, I suggest we examine what survivors reported – bearing in mind that until the 11th July no-one had suggested suicide bombers so there was no ‘official story’ - i.e., that there had to be just one train per site, with one coach having a bomb, and travelling away from King’s Cross. Before that, the reports were different.
On July 7th Rachel’s BBC blog just said, ‘In the pub I found out there had been many bombs.’ Then on the 9th, ‘When I started hearing the bomb was in my carriage, I flipped. I started pacing about.’ Then finally on 13th she apprehends that it was ‘four young Britons’ who did it.
As regards what happened in the first carriage, I have cited above seven witnesses: Rachel, PC Bryan, John Wade, Steve Lovegrove, Ray Wright and the two anonymous girls in the YouTube video, and argued that they have given consistent testimonies of their first-hand experience. Passengers were traumatized and frazzled, with faces blackened, glass in their hair and some bleeding – but, no-one described limbs being blown off or deaths. Three of these witnesses described a hole in the ceiling as it had imploded just like the windows, and two described seeing orange fire outside the carriage.
In contrast, two testimonies from persons entering from the King’s Cross end described dire carnage in carriages nearest to King’s Cross: Sergeant Steve Betts and Inspector Ray Shields. To that we could add the testimony of Aaron Roche, the Blue Watch Crew Manager from London Fire Brigade's Soho (‘"Blue Watch relive the Bomb Hell inside Carriage 346A,’ October 9, 2005, The Observer). Roche arrives at King’s Cross at 09.13, and sends two of his men down to the platform: | Quote: | | They returned gasping soon after with tales of corpses, the smell of burning flesh clinging to their nostrils… |
Then soon after, ‘Hundreds [were] being treated by Roche and his men in the cavernous waiting hall of King's Cross… Roche thinks often about what he confronted on that once ordinary morning, particularly how they gently stacked body parts of the dead on the platform.’
There are some problems with that Aaron Roche testimony, especially with it only appearing three months after the event. Complained the J7 experts, the coach 346A ‘cannot exist as the first carriage on a Piccadilly Line train, rather than carriage 166’ (a rather obscure point). What was that pile of body parts on King’s Cross station platform about? The train was supposed to be much nearer Russell Square Station than King’s Cross when it stopped, and no-one described corpses or piles of corpses at Russell Square station. |
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Prole
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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A reply from TfL to an FOI request re: carriage 346A:
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On July 7 at 08:50 hours, three bombs exploded on three Tube trains as follows:
Circle line train number 204 (six carriages) heading eastbound from Liverpool Street station to Aldgate station;
Circle line train number 216 (six carriages) travelling westbound heading from Edgware Road station to Paddington station; and
Piccadilly line train number 331 (six carriages) travelling from King's Cross St Pancras to Russell Square westbound.
A fourth train, a Hammersmith and City line train sustained damage while passing train 216 at the time of the Edgware Road blast.
The carriages in which the bombs exploded (166, 6713 and 6505) have been scrapped and disposed of securely due to the damage caused.
A further 17 carriages were affected by the blasts at Aldgate, Edgware Road and King's Cross; the carriage numbers were 5558, 6558, 6523, 5523, 5505, 5593, 6593, 5713, 6548, 5548, 6732, 5732, 366, 566, 217, 417, and 617.
There is not a carriage 346A. |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| stelios wrote: | Do you realise how odd your statement sounds?
WHISTLEBLOWERS are employees or insiders who grass up their colleagues wrongdoings. WITNESSES are quite different.
You do accept that? |
Not sure what point you're attempting to make. I used the term "whistleblowers" specifically in relation to LU staff, but by extension there are numerous other people who will have attended the King's Cross/Russell Square site in their professional capacity.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | It is simply not credible to suggest that substantial damage to cars 3-6 could have been kept secret. |
I dont think anybody is suggesting that, but again look at the evidence. Where are the train carraiges? Apart from a few very low res photos that have been released as ABC 'exclusives' i am not aware of anyone else having had access to any of the damaged trains. There are a handful of photos and that is it. So whatever happeneed that day is most definately being kept secret. |
Compared to what? How often do we see official crime scene photographs, especially gruesome ones? All the photographs of the bus wreckage were taken by passersby or - later - the media who managed to get themselves into vantage points to get round the police cordons and screens. How do they do that in a tunnel? Yet again, you are complaining about the lack of something we should not logically expect to exist.
| Quote: | | Three trains plus aparantly a train passing the other way were damaged, one bus. I would say less than 6 photos have appeared in the media and no reporter has nosed around the wreckage of any of the damage. |
There are plenty of photographs of the bus, so clearly you shouldn't lump it in with your "less than 6 photos" claim. As to the trains, opportunities for non-official photographs - as I've said - will have been extremely limited.
| Quote: | | As there is no inquests and no inquiry the answer is yes stuff is being kept secret. |
You seem to have fogotten very quickly what I said previously about the time inquests can take to happen. It can be years, as numerous past examples prove.
| Quote: | Who knows they may melt the carraiges down for scrap?
Hundreds of people are not involved, people who clean the tracks at nightime are going to say what? We saw some dirt and hoovered it up so whats new. |
You seem to be forgetting the medical staff, firefighters, and police who attended the immediate scene, followed by the forensic workers, LU engineers and other staff later. Certainly that will amount to scores of people who will have been in a position to see if there was substantial damage to cars 3-6 (which is what we're talking about here). On top of that you have the hundreds of passengers who were on the train at the time.
| Quote: | | As i keep saying i expect that some witnesses would say "we saw this guy matching the description sitting here" only one person out of 700 injured and countless other non injured survivors has said anything like that and his testimony could be clouded by the fact that he was extremely badly injured and refused adequate compensation. |
You said you were on the Tube last week. Can you describe anybody who was more than a few feet away from you, if not closer? Maybe you have an exceptional memory (although I doubt it somehow), but most people don't. More to the point, the people closest to the site of the explosion, and therefore those best in a position to remember who or what was there, are also the most likely to have been killed. Again, you expect something that is very unlikely to exist.
| Quote: | CCTV is the key missing evidence, you have claimed that some cctv is still on video tape, well then there is even less excuse not to have it.
Whistleblowers would come from the ranks of Transport Police officers, most of who have already told it like they saw it? Or VERINT/ICTS employess - hardly likely. M15 officers? well we know there has been precious few whistleblowers and the jury is still out on whether any information was exposed. |
You seem to have forgotten all the other non-passengers who will have been on site both on the day and immediately afterwards. Firefighters, medical workers, forensic investigators, and LU staff. If there was anything to be seen, they would have seen it. If there is anything to be kept secret, their employers must also be complicit. For example, if cars 4-6 were substantially damaged, one would presume LU would be aware of it. In fact, LU workers are talking:
| Quote: | Usenet posting by Piccadilly line driver, 12/03/06:
"The 'unit' that was involved was 166 which is a 3 car unit (166-566-366+something else). The device was actually detonated in 166 but badly affected 566 too. 366 was untouched (I saw it quite intact in Cockfosters depot a few days later after it had been removed from the incident site), and the remainder of the train (the 'something else' which I can't remember the unit numbers of) has been back in service for some time now.
Out of interest, I'm told (I spent all last week on nights there but didn't actually go and check to confirm - that would be a bit too morbid, I think) that the car currently quite visible at the east end of Northfields depot under blue tarpaulin is 566, now returned to us...
As someone who will have to drive the thing, I don't see any more problem with driving this train than any other that someone may have tragically lost their life on - and there are a few of them out there. "
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.transport.london/msg/002dfdca5f5df 192 |
| Quote: | | I would say there has been worldwide very few Victor Ostrovsky the ex mossad officer is one example. |
Hmmm... the only example you know of is ex-Mossad. How unsurprising....
| Quote: | | I am not aware of any act of mass murder like this and all we have to go on are a few hearsay newspaper quotes and a few foreign media photos. Surely that screams out as being a cover up? |
Where are the photographs of the inside of Dunblane Primary School? Or the Admiral Duncan pub? Or the places where Miles Cooper's letter bombs exploded? Gosh, there are so few, if any - obviously more cover-ups! |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Prole wrote: | From Steve Lovegrove's account:
| Quote: | | .Mark tried to force the door behind us open to get the people out, he told them to stand back so he could kick it through, but couldn’t, it was buckled and swollen in towards us and jammed shut, the top half was blown through and scattered on the floor. It was so dark it was impossible to see what was happening in there, I could see part of the roof hanging down, which prevented us going through the window. Mark was still talking to the people the other side of the door, holding a woman’s hand through the door and reassuring them |
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True, although he goes on to say:
| Quote: | | "After about half an hour people started to move down from in front of us, as I got to the end of my carriage I looked back and 5 injured people walked out of the carriage behind (the front one), then nobody else." |
So obviously the door was opened at some point. |
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karlos
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Prole wrote: |
The carriages in which the bombs exploded (166, 6713 and 6505) have been scrapped and disposed of securely due to the damage caused.
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Wow that is so blatantly a cover up.
I did not realise they had scrapped the carraiges. Just like 911 and the steel.
How can they be allowed to do that?
| Staraker wrote: | | Where are the photographs of the inside of Dunblane Primary School? Or the Admiral Duncan pub? Or the places where Miles Cooper's letter bombs exploded? Gosh, there are so few, if any - obviously more cover-ups! |
Dunblane?
For pity's sake i know you are desperately trying to play the three card trick but really you could do better. Dunblane the guilty party is not disputed, the survivors and witnesses are ALL real people and all say the same thing.
7/7 nobody knows who dunnit and nobody agrees on anything. Most of the so called witnesses seem to be untraceable and many survivors/injured have wildly opposing views.
So pick better examples to distract us with.
Arent you personally shocked that they could scrap all the evidence prior to any trial, inquest or inquiry?
And there was precious little evidence other than the carraiges.
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Disco_Destroyer
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And there was precious little evidence other than the carraiges. |
and cctv footage but behold it is there for our safety lol, yea like after the event 
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astro3
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Prole – do you know that that picture is of the first carriage of the 331 Piccadilly line? I agree that it seems likely.
Stelios, it would be nice to have some more details about: | Quote: | | From Arnos grove to Kings X was closed at 08.30 due to the Cally rd fire alert. Rachel who lives near Arsenal/Finsbury park has not described her station being closed or the Cally rd fire alert - but we know these things to be confirmed facts. If a station re opens there should be a crowd gathered meaning the trains are jam packed due to the backlog. |
When did it re-open? I never heard that story. My impression was, that the train had been packed out. A ‘small number injured’ (if it was small) isn’t evidence against that.
Here is a picture of the rear carriages of that Piccadilly line train, after the last four coaches had been moved back into King’s Cross station. They have sustained quite a blast, and is there anyone wanting to believe that this has come from a single bomb six carriages away? (Pic: uk.transport.london, It's from "The Tube Show", looking at a CCTV monitor in KXSP control room, on Numeral’s site*.
Crew Manager Aaron Roche of Soho Fire Station (His story, '"Blue Watch relive the bomb hell inside carriage 346A' got a gold award from the Queen for his services on July 7th (www.london-fire.gov.uk/lfepa/reports/2006/FEP830.pdf)
* Google ‘166-566-366’ – these are the numbers of front 3 coaches, so Rachel was in 166. Note how they differ by 200, NB do not attempt to understand this.
Aargh, I can't get it to add the image, hafta go now. |
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numeral
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| astro3 wrote: | | Here is a picture of the rear carriages of that Piccadilly line train, after the last four coaches had been moved back into King’s Cross station. They have sustained quite a blast, and is there anyone wanting to believe that this has come from a single bomb six carriages away? (Pic: uk.transport.london, It's from "The Tube Show", looking at a CCTV monitor in KXSP control room, on Numeral’s site*. |
Presumably you mean this one:
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8024/1918/1600/Screenshot6.png
This is taken from the Russell Square end of the platform, so the car closest the camera is the third, i.e. 366, which was obviously only two cars away from the explosion. Exactly what "damage" are you claiming to see? |
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PaulStott
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| numeral wrote: | Gari Holness
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Who quickly had his 'career' as a 7/7 survivor thwarted when his real name, and horrific rape conviction were revealed.
I rather suspected at the time someone on high did not like the attention he was getting in the media and decided to pull the rug from under his feet.
Proving that would however be another matter. |
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karlos
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Astro - there was reports from passengers who posted in usernet discussions that the picadilly line was closed from Arnos Grove to Kings Cross. This was due to a fire alert at Caledonian Road. For example several people have said that Bounds Green and Wood Green were closed at 08.30.
As the bomb went off approx 08.52 it does not allow alot of time for the stations to reopen and for the through train STARTING at Arnos Grove to reach Russel Square.
Apart from the terror drills and exercises occuring at the stations, there was a great deal of disruption and station closures that day. It cannot be ruled out as a coincidence that there are drills/exercises/power surges/station closures and fire alerts all minutes before bombs start going off.
Does anyone know when the picadilly line stations reopened and whether any of the known survivors state what statio they got on at?
The thought has obviously occured that if the Caledonian Road fire alert had lasted another 2 minutes the alleged bomber would have been standing on a platform when his bomb went off.
For the moment accepting that there was a bomber.
However it is possible that there were continuous trains running from Kings Cross southbound meaning the trains would be empty with no inward bound passengers from North London until the line reopened.
From what i have read of the survivors, none of them describes their route did they get the Victoria line and change at Kings Cross or did they get on at one of the staions that had been closed.
Everyone will have seen the CCTV footage of Jean Charles De Menezes the guy who was supposed to have leapt over the barriers with wires hanging out of his heavily apdded coat. Remember when they said there was no cctv for that incident either. I would suspect that all the cctv from 7/7 is available but is being witheld.
Why must we accept official stories which are always later proven to be a pack of lies? De Menezes was murdered 2 weeks after 7/7 so it was aprt of a chain of events. The crooked Israeli companies in charge of London Underground security must be stripped of their contract.
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numeral
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| stelios wrote: | Astro - there was reports from passengers who posted in usernet discussions that the picadilly line was closed from Arnos Grove to Kings Cross. This was due to a fire alert at Caledonian Road. For example several people have said that Bounds Green and Wood Green were closed at 08.30.
As the bomb went off approx 08.52 it does not allow alot of time for the stations to reopen and for the through train STARTING at Arnos Grove to reach Russel Square.
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The timetable of Train 331
Trip 1 Cockfosters Depot 0749 to Cockfosters platform 2 0752.5
Trip 2 Cockfosters 0800.5 Oakwood 0802.5 Arnos Grove 0809 Wood Green 0813.5 Finsbury Park 0820.5 King's Cross 0829 Holborn 0832.5 Green Park 0838.5 Hyde Park Corner 0841 Knightsbridge 0842.5 South Kensington 0845 Earl's Court 0848 Hammersmith 0853 Acton Town 0859.5
It was running about 20 minutes late.
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