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scubadiver
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: Can we trust the Govt ? Darling admits 25m records lost |
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What greater reason is there not to have ID cards
| Quote: | Alistair Darling has blamed mistakes by junior officials at HM Revenue and Customs after details of 25 million child benefit recipients were lost.
The Chancellor said information, including bank details of 7m families, had been sent on discs to the National Audit office by unrecorded delivery.
The discs had never arrived at their destination, Mr Darling told MPs. |
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spiv
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: 53 items of information.... |
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And did anyone see "Watchdog" last night about National Insurance information being sent to the wrong people?
Furthermore I shudder if Brown and his cronies push ahead with this ridiculous idea of giving them 53 pieces of personal info, including credit card numbers, whenever we wish to fly to Spain on our holidays. I shudder to think of our weak-kneed useless politicians who will just roll over and let him pass these laws.
Who are the terrorists?? No less than our UK and the American Governments!! |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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What's the betting that if you were to submit an FOI to find out if your details were among the 25,000,000 that have "gone missing" you wouldn't be entitled due to some exemption or perhaps, the Data Protection Act.
Worth doing just to find out.
It's got to be Al Qaeda surely?
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dontbelievethehype1970
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yes !, if this 'breach' was not so serious, this is a cause for celebration!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7103566.stm
Shadow Chancellor George Osborne:
said it was the "final blow for the ambitions of this government to create a national ID database" as "they simply can not be trusted with people's personal information".
Liberal Democrats, Vince Cabel:
"After this disaster how can the public possibly have confidence in the vast centralised databases needed for the compulsory ID card scheme. |
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conspiracy analyst
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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This story is given profile to probably deflect the bank crash.
It could actually be a non-story as all govt agencies have us on computerised files.
Darling may be ditched not for the Banking debacle which is immense but for Data (non) Protection |
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xmasdale
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kbo234
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Last week, after drinking six pints of Young's ordinary bitter (an excellent beer. I recommend it), smoking a large spliff and eating a black pudding sandwich I found I was thinking thoughts much like the above.
Had an interesting evening Noel? |
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Mark Gobell
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alfsevic
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Excellent! 
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| kbo234 wrote: |
Last week, after drinking six pints of Young's ordinary bitter (an excellent beer. I recommend it), smoking a large spliff and eating a black pudding sandwich I found I was thinking thoughts much like the above.
Had an interesting evening Noel? |
But I never eat black pudding sandwiches |
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karlos
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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They might use this self inflicted incident as an excuse to introduce ID cards.
25 million peoples IDs are reported to be missing in the post, although i must admit it all seems very far fetched.
Look we all have dealings with HM gov. You need a password to check your vat, nat insurance, tax returns etc.
It is extremely hard for us to use any government service EVEN WHEN YOU ARE THE REAL PERSON.
So the chances of a fraudster finding two cd roms in the post and then managing to hack into them is extremely unlikely.
More likely this never happened.
It is another false flag.
Later 25 miilion people will be told why not apply for an ID card so nobody can defraud you out of your child benefits. So we know that you really are who you say you are.
Think about this, you work in a government dept and do you honestly think you can download everyones details onto a cd rom?
It would be the greatest every mailing list worth millions.
But it really cant happen. |
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I think Karlos may be right. |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| xmasdale wrote: | | I think Karlos may be right. |
It certainly something to consider.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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TNT Express:
| Quote: | | We make sure your documents, parcels and freight are delivered safely and on-time using our integrated air and road networks. |
Interesting.
TNT Express who are said to be "co-operating fully" is, by definition a recorded consignment service.
| Quote: | | Proof of delivery is usually available in real time on the internet shortly after we deliver your consignment in the United Kingdom and to access this amazing service please click on to track 'n' trace. |
http://www.tnt.com/country/en_gb/services/tnt/tnt.html
From Darling's statement:
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/newsroom_and_speeches/speeches/statement /speech_statement_201107.cfm
| Quote: | | It now appears that following a further request from the NAO in October for information from the Child Benefit database, and again at a junior level and again contrary to all HMRC standing procedures, two password protected discs containing a full copy of HMRC's entire data in relation to the payment of child benefit was sent to the NAO, by HMRC's post system operated by the courier TNT. The package was not recorded or registered. |
HMRC instruction IHTM02117
| Quote: | IHTM02117 - Communications: Outgoing correspondence: recorded delivery service or registered post
You should use recorded delivery service or registered post only where
* the document in question is of such a special nature as to warrant the use of registered post, or
* the member of the public forwarding the original deeds and documents requests its return by recorded delivery service or registered post.
If you need to use the recorded delivery/registered post service please take the letter to the post room by hand for them to send the letter by recorded delivery/registered post. |
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/IHTmanual/ihtm02117.htm
But:
| Quote: | Press statement UK Express Services
20 November 2007, 19:30 CET - TNT Express Services is co-operating fully with Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs and the Metropolitan Police in relation to the ongoing investigation into the missing HMRC computer discs.
The company co-operated fully with HMRC when the problem first arose and has continued to do so throughout the period since the discs were reported as lost.
TNT operates a general internal mail system for the HMRC and other associated Government agencies. Options exist for the sender to choose a consigned service e.g. full track and trace.
General mail does not carry a track and trace mechanism and hence it has been impossible, in this instance, to conduct an audit to identify if the item entered the system.
It is important to note that the replacement discs were despatched on a consigned service e.g. with full track and trace visibility on October 24thand subsequently delivered within the required time frame the following morning.
TNT carries up to 100,000 items of mail each night on behalf of HMRC.
At this stage we are unable to offer any further comment as police investigations continue and an Independent Police Complaints Commission inquiry is about to be launched. |
So, even though the NAO is not part of government, they are saying that they've used the "internal" postal system for government agencies.
Plausible I guess.
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Last edited by Mark Gobell on Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| karlos wrote: | They might use this self inflicted incident as an excuse to introduce ID cards.
25 million peoples IDs are reported to be missing in the post, although i must admit it all seems very far fetched.
Look we all have dealings with HM gov. You need a password to check your vat, nat insurance, tax returns etc.
It is extremely hard for us to use any government service EVEN WHEN YOU ARE THE REAL PERSON.
So the chances of a fraudster finding two cd roms in the post and then managing to hack into them is extremely unlikely.
More likely this never happened.
It is another false flag.
Later 25 miilion people will be told why not apply for an ID card so nobody can defraud you out of your child benefits. So we know that you really are who you say you are.
Think about this, you work in a government dept and do you honestly think you can download everyones details onto a cd rom?
It would be the greatest every mailing list worth millions.
But it really cant happen. |
I sent a comment along these lines and it was published.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Just a reminder that 50 million NHS records are supposed to be going live by 2014 too.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I asked my wife about this last night as she works at HMRC. Her reply was that she wasn't in the least bit surprised as there is absolutely no management left within the organisation. Over the last 5 years it has all been stripped out and staff now "manage" themselves. This coupled with the fiasco over the family tax credit system and now the merger with the VAT authorities has put morale in the organisation on it's back. Is it any wonder that these sorts of problems occur? Darling may not be personally to blame but the government he represents most certainly is!
Posted by Muller on November 21, 2007 2:12 PM |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=BLOGDETAIL&grid=F11&bl og=yourview&xml=/news/2007/11/20/view20.xml
End of the road for HMRC?
You can almost hear the distant thunder of EDS and nonsense-Gemini's outriders circling the corpse . . .
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karlos
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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The Government owns parcelforce so why is it using Rupert Murdoch's TNT?
And TNT must know where the envelope was delivered to, it is not the Royal Mail. If there was an envelope what would the reason possibly be?
Dont we use zip drives and flash drives now?
CD Roms are so last decade.
The government now has an INTRAnet meaning data does not need to be moved physically it can be accessed anywhere. That is what the government gave all those billions to those IT companies to facilitate.
Sending cd roms is like using carrier pigeons.
This all must be another false flag.
Create chaos and panic.
Ever since Brown ascended to the premiership, floods, fires, terror alerts, panics, banking crisis, foot and mouth, bird flu, never ending scares.
Almost remenescent of Damien Thorne? |
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karlos
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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The Government owns parcelforce so why is it using Rupert Murdoch's TNT?
And TNT must know where the envelope was delivered to, it is not the Royal Mail. If there was an envelope what would the reason possibly be?
Dont we use zip drives and flash drives now?
CD Roms are so last decade.
The government now has an INTRAnet meaning data does not need to be moved physically it can be accessed anywhere. That is what the government gave all those billions to those IT companies to facilitate.
Sending cd roms is like using carrier pigeons.
This all must be another false flag.
Create chaos and panic.
Ever since Brown ascended to the premiership, floods, fires, terror alerts, panics, banking crisis, foot and mouth, bird flu, never ending scares.
Almost remenescent of Damien Thorne? |
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conspiracy analyst
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| karlos wrote: | The Government owns parcelforce so why is it using Rupert Murdoch's TNT
Ever since Brown ascended to the premiership, floods, fires, terror alerts, panics, banking crisis, foot and mouth, bird flu, never ending scares.
Almost remenescent of Damien Thorne? |
TNT is a US company.
According to the papers today this has been known since one month ago.
The Banking crisis and the cover up of it must be the sole motive.
When a govt has spent billions on our behalf bailing out a Bank which will probably be sold off to an American Equity fund, Brown is essentially announcing he will do everything to bail out his bankrupt Atlantic brothers.
This to me reminds me of a shakedown. The Yanks need money its time for the Brits to cough up. The closest ally of any mafia don usually gets the short straw. |
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acrobat74
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| karlos wrote: |
Ever since Brown ascended to the premiership, floods, fires, terror alerts, panics, banking crisis, foot and mouth, bird flu, never ending scares. |
Nowhere in Europe does one get the never-ending nonsense one gets to hear in UK train and tube stations and airports:
- if you suspect it, report it (stay alert there granny!)
- security personnel are patrolling this station (thanks for the tip)
- your baggage will be removed and may be destroyed (hug the suitcase!)
*.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm thinking about how the devious may use this to their advantage.
What would happen if all those self-assessment forms, benefit claims, etc., were returned with false information and then disowned by the victims of this identify theft?
The theft of identities could have lasting effects for millions of children.
The possibilities for the unscrupulous within this series of regions are truly staggering . . .
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karlos
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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It is all part of the never ending panic.
Keep the population jumpy on its toes.
Keep the sheep scared.
Even experts have appeared on tv asking why on arth would the DSS be sending this stuff from one office to another anyway.
Th computers are all linked to one central database.
This is a false flag alert. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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It may well be, yet another pile of *, I agree.
There may be factional issues at play here too.
As for the idea that it is easy to send over 1Gb of data over the internet, as an email attachment, or even via an intranet, if it exists is not as it might seem to most folk.
1. Internet & Intranet
This would probably require an FTP system. Probably not accessible to a clerk.
2. Email attachments.
Every organisation imposes limits on the size of email attachments, normally a few Mb max. It has been reported in the email exchange about the CDs supposed to have been sent in March that the recipient received 100 zipped files. A huge volume of data. This of course raises other questions about the format of this data. Quite why it would need to be in 100 seperate ZIPs is mysterious.
Darling does look like he lied to the house though.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Bad science: The biometric blues
| Quote: | Now for ID cards - and the biometric blues
Ben Goldacre
The Guardian
Saturday November 24 2007
Sometimes just throwing a few long words about can make people think you know what you're talking about. Words like "biometric".
When Alistair Darling was asked if the government will ditch ID cards in the light of this week's data c***-up, he replied: "The key thing about identity cards is, of course, that information is protected by personal biometric information. The problem at present is that, because we do not have that protection, information is much more vulnerable than it should be."
Yes, that's the problem. We need biometric identification. Fingerprints. Iris scans. Gordon Brown says so too: "What we must ensure is that identity fraud is avoided, and the way to avoid identity fraud is to say that for passport information we will have the biometric support that is necessary."
Tsutomu Matsumoto is a Japanese mathematician, a cryptographer who works on security, and he decided to see if he could fool the machines which identify you by your fingerprint. This home science project costs about £20. Take a finger and make a cast with the moulding plastic sold in hobby shops. Then pour some liquid gelatin (ordinary food gelatin) into that mould and let it harden. Stick this over your finger pad: it fools fingerprint detectors about 80% of the time. The joy is, once you've fooled the machine, your fake fingerprint is made of the same stuff as fruit pastilles, so you can simply eat the evidence.
But what if you can't get the finger? Well, you can chop one off, of course - another risk with biometrics. But there is an easier way. Find a fingerprint on glass. Sorry, I should have pointed out that every time you touch something, if your security systems rely on biometric ID, then you're essentially leaving your pin number on a post-it note.
You can make a fingerprint image on glass more visible by painting over it with some cyanoacrylate adhesive. That's a posh word for superglue. Photograph that with a digital camera. Improve the contrast in a picture editing program, and print the image on to a transparency sheet, then use that to etch the fingerprint on to a copper-plated printed circuit board (it sounds difficult, but you can buy a beginner's etching set at Maplin for £10.67). This gives an image with some three-dimensional relief. You can now make your gelatin fingerpad using this as a mould.
Should I have told you all that, or am I very naughty? Yes to both.
It's well known that security systems which rely on secret methods are less secure than open systems, because the greater the number of people who know about the system, the more people there are to spot holes in it, and it is important that there are no holes. If someone tells you their system is perfect and secret, that's like quacks who tell you their machine cures cancer but they can't tell you how: it's cobblers.
Open the box, quack. In fact you might sense that the whole field of biometrics and ID is rather like medical quackery: as usual, on the one hand we have snake oil salesmen promising the earth, and on the other a bunch of humanities graduates who don't understand technology, science or even human behaviour. Buying it. Bigging it up. Thinking it's a magic wand.
But it's not. The leak last week wasn't because of unauthorised access, it couldn't have been stopped with biometrics; it happened because of authorised access which was managed with a contemptible, cavalier incompetence. The damaging repercussions for 25 million people will not be ameliorated by biometrics.
So will biometrics prevent ID theft? Well, it might make it more difficult for you to prove your innocence. And once your fingerprints are stolen, they are harder to replace than your pin number. But here's the final nail in the coffin. Your fingerprint data will be stored in your passport or ID card as a series of numbers, called the "minutiae template". In the new biometric passport with its wireless chip, remember, all your data can be read and decrypted with a device near you, but not touching you.
What good would the data be, if someone lifted it? Not much, insisted Jim Knight, the minister for schools and learners, in July: "It is not possible to recreate a fingerprint using the numbers that are stored. The algorithm generates a unique number, producing no information of any use to identity thieves." Crystal clear, Jim.
Unfortunately, a team of mathematicians published a paper in April this year, showing that they could reconstruct a fingerprint from this data alone. In fact, they printed out the images they made, and then - crucially, completing the circle - used them to fool fingerprint readers.
Ah biometrics. Such a soothingly technical word. Repeat it to yourself. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Times
| Quote: | Pressure mounts on Alistair Darling as six more CDs reported missing
Alistair Darling was at the centre of a new storm over the loss of personal data last night as The Times learnt that six more CDs containing confidential information were missing in the Revenue & Customs internal post.
The Revenue’s head office, which adjoins the Treasury, reported that the data was missing more than three weeks ago.
It follows the Chancellor’s announcement this week that the details of 25 million people on two CDs were lost in the post because a junior official failed to follow security procedures. The new loss, however, will strengthen Tory claims that the fiasco is a result of systemic failure.
Last night a spokesman for the Revenue said that the six missing discs held conversations between a tax credit claimant and one of its helplines. The discs were forwarded to a tax credits office in Preston by the claimant’s MP.
Advice for anyone who fears their personal data may be misused by fraudsters after Britain's worst ever security breach
* Government under pressure over taxman's giant blunder
Background
* Police step in as other CDs have gone astray
* Moment’s blunder puts half the country at risk
* Data watchdog seeks dawn-raid powers
* New data law 'urgently needed'
Related Links
* I never lose things. Bet I'd find those discs
* Three times a victim of fraudsters
Revenue officials asked for the discs to be sent to its main Whitehall address early last month. They were despatched on October 10 by internal mail, using TNT couriers — the same delivery system at the centre of the investigation into the missing child benefit data.
By October 30 they were reported missing, according to a Revenue spokesman, who said that a search was under way this weekend. “We take this loss extremely seriously and we are doing everything that we can to locate these CDs.”
The spokesman said that he was unable to say whether the CDs were password-protected or encrypted or had been sent by registered delivery.
Although the missing CDs contain confidential information about a single individual, the latest blunder will deepen the the Government’s embarrassment. MPs will want to know why Mr Darling did not tell the Commons in his statement that there was a second report of missing data.
A spokesman for the Treasury said that the Chancellor had not known of the six missing CDs when he made his statement on Tuesday. He also said that the latest loss was a “an operational matter for Revenue & Customs”.
The Times was informed about the latest loss after Revenue staff had a meeting with senior officials. They were asked to join the search for the confidential data — presumably so that they could be found before news of their loss leaked.
George Osborne, the Shadow Chancellor, demanded that Mr Darling return to the Commons to make a fresh statement setting out what he knew and when. “Alistair Darling’s version of events unravels day by day. The Chancellor needs to come before Parliament on Monday and explain himself,” he said.
The Conservatives also demanded the immediate suspension of a new government electronic database that holds the personal details of every child in England.
The £224 million ContactPoint register, which is due to be launched in April, lists the names, addresses, schools, GPs and, where applicable, social worker of the children. Where parents or children give consent, it could also include more sensitive information about whether children have used sexual or mental health services or had treatment for substance abuse.
Tim Loughton, Shadow Children’s Minister, has written to Beverly Hughes, the Children’s Minister, asking her to put the whole project on ice, amid fears about the security of the information. “After the Revenue & Customs fiasco this week, there are question marks over whether the security around ContactPoint is watertight,” he said.
The Government revealed last night that Ed Balls, the Schools and Children’s Secretary, ordered an urgent security review of ContactPoint on Tuesday.
ContactPoint will be password-protected, but the password will be available to around 330,000 vetted users. |
That's worth repeating:
| Quote: | | * New data law 'urgently needed' |
New data law 'urgently needed'
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rodin
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Is the Pope a Catholic?
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