05Sep2012 Saad Al-Hilli family contract killing Annecy, Alps

[ian neal]

Guess who made the panaroma programme on this case recently .... our old friend Mike Rudin

[TonyGosling]

Hasn't Mike Rudin been jailed yet for aiding and abetting terrorism?
What's this traitor to National Security, the BBC and the British People doing on the loose?

[Celia_Moore]

It's the case that just won't go away, or rather shouldn't. Four people slaughtered, and two young children injured, and now without parents. Surely they deserve some honest answers? We are tempted to believe the simplest of assumptions. But something is just not right.

I guess my take on it, is similar to others. From the details given, they had just arrived, and perhaps followed and cornered in the lay-by. The car was in reverse, after a sharp (quick) turn, the engine was running, and the back wheels still spinning. the doors were locked. The body of the cyclist who was shot was nowhere near the bike. Suggesting that he had got off to walk up to somebody? The family were probably followed from the campsite. The windows were smashed first on the drivers side, and they were shot through the window. Obviously the work of trained military or special forces types, backed up by a surveillance team, money (and passports if necessary), not an amateur hit man, paid for by a jealous brother after money!

Al- Hilli may have been meeting the chap on the bike to hand over something, but ambushed as he parked in the lay-by. (If you were alone on your bike in the middle of woods, and you heard gun shots ahead of you, you wouldn't get off your bike and walk up to the car as it was going on would you?) Although Mollier had money troubles, and had been working in a nuclear metal works factory, the police don't think it's related.

It could have been a case of in the wrong place at the wrong time, and killed too, so he couldn't describe WHAT he saw, not because he would be able to describe what they looked like.

If it was anything to do with secret services, it may have been rogue assets possibly. The organisations themselves wouldn't necessarily know anything about it.



Quote from Killing Eve says it all. "You know it's all over for intelligence, and secret services......when companies like this one, have more information than the Pentagon and MI6 combined." Peel

You can't help but think that maybe he was involved in something work related, or simply knew too much that was good for him. The race for space , and global domination of the communication/tech network, is just as much a reason for some to get nasty, as it is turfing people off their land, so you can get hold of their oil, or control shipping routes/trade.

(Strange that his wife's ex husband in America, died on the same day.)

Here is a reminder of some of what we have been told so far, and some thoughts from others.

http://tapnewswire.com/2012/09/wasp-im-not-sure-about-source/

(Is it true that the police found a Taser in the house in Surrey too? Who had access to their house while they were away? Were they being watched? Did somebody break in, or was it just a coincidence?)

https://www.abeldanger.org/marine-links-rezko-to-libor-funded/


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15156400


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/08/saad-al-hilli-wife-secre t-husband-french-alps-murder



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/12/french-alps-shooting-pho tographs-taken


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9531436/Franc e-shooting-was-Saad-Al-Hilli-assassinated-over-secret-defence-contract .html

[TonyGosling]

Ex-spy killing 'linked to unsolved murder of Brit family in the Alps'
EXCLUSIVE: An apparent murder of a former French agent could mean a breakthrough for police investigating the deaths of a family of three
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ex-spy-assassination-linked-unso lved-14263208

By Tom Parry 22:44, 8 APR 2019UPDATED22:55, 8 APR 2019

Daniel Forestier was shot dead - and police are investigating if his shooting was done by the same killer that murdered a British family seven years ago
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The apparent assassination of an ex-spy in the French Alps could help to finally crack the mystery of a British family murdered nearby in 2012.

Daniel Forestier was found shot dead last week in a car park in Ballaison, close to the French border with Switzerland.

The retired DGSE agent – France’s equivalent of MI6 – took five bullets in the head and chest.

Prosecutors said the calculated nature of the 57-year-old’s killing means it is being treated as a professional hit.

And experts noticed striking similarities to the killings of Brits Saad al-Hilli, 50, wife Iqbal, 47, and her mum Suhaili al-Allaf, 74.

In both cases, the victims were shot at point-blank range, in little-used car parks in the Alps with a low chance of witnesses – and the same number of bullets were used.



Ex-satellite engineer Mr al-Hilli, of Claygate, Surrey, was shot at the wheel of his car in a lay-by in Chevaline, which is just an hour’s drive from Ballaison, in Annecy.

He had taken his caravan to a local campsite with his wife, mother-in-law and two daughters in September 2012.

A French cyclist was also murdered at the spot, while eldest girl Zainab, seven, was pistol-whipped and left for dead.

Sister Zeena, then four, was left unharmed but cowering under her mum’s skirt.

A source said: “The killer on both occasions aimed at the body, then specifically the heart, before finishing off victims at extremely close range with a bullet to the head. There are clear parallels.”



The scene of the al-Hilli family slaughter (Image: Phil Harris)
READ MORE
Groom who bit off part of guest's ear at his wedding reception jailed
Mr Forestier was being probed in connection with a plot to kill exiled Congolese colonel Ferdinand Mbahou.

Prosecutors suspect his death is linked to proceedings opened against him and a DGSE colleague last year.

The border area is rife with weapons issued to conscripts in the Swiss army, which they can keep when back in civilian life.

[TonyGosling]

Surrey to start making radar satellites
Jonathan Amos Science correspondent @BBCAmoson Twitter 3 October 2011
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15156400

The British spacecraft manufacturer SSTL has announced its intention to start building radar satellites.

It is a significant move for the Guildford-based company which has, until now, been associated with small, low-cost satellites that view the Earth at optical and near-infrared wavelengths, producing images that are recognisably the sort of thing we see with our own eyes.

NovaSar-S (Sar stands for synthetic aperture radar) will be a 3m-by-1m spacecraft with an interesting shape and weighing just shy of 400kg.

SSTL is presenting details of the new platform at this week's International Astronautical Congress in South Africa.

Radar is a very different technology to what it has offered previously and makes for a very different type of picture, one that can look quite strange to the untrained eye.

It requires the satellite to fire multiple microwave pulses at the ground and then build up pictures from the echoes.

The principal advantage over optical Earth observation is that radar is all-weather. Whereas an optical camera positioned in space and pointed at the ground cannot see through cloud, a radar imager can - and you get just the same picture whether it is day or night.

Image copyrightOTHER
Image caption
A one-third scale test version of the radar antenna seen during development
SSTL's decision is fascinating because radar satellites have traditionally been big, power-hungry beasts. It takes a lot of energy to generate the pulses and then to process the echo returns. The problem for SSTL has been in devising a package that is relatively small and inexpensive - the company's trademarks.

SSTL hopes to be able to build, insure and launch a NovaSar-S for less than 50 million euros, not the more-than-one-hundred million euros you could spend on a radar satellite.

Luis Gomes is the head of Earth observation at SSTL.

"The cost associated with generating the power pulses has always been a big issue, and managing that power," he told me.

"We've addressed this by using new technology - new types of amplifier from commercial terrestrial applications in telecommunications.

"Another issue that has prevented us from doing Sar previously was the technology in terms of data processing. Sar generates a lot of data - 20-30 times more data per second compared to our original optical data processing systems.

"But because optical systems have become more complex as we've gone to higher resolutions, we now have the systems that can cope with Sar."

The NovaSar-S project has been in gestation for a number of years, and has involved research at SSTL, the Space Centre at Surrey University; and at SSTL's parent company, Astrium. Indeed, the 3m x 1m phased array antenna which gives the satellite its distinctive, plank-like appearance was developed by the Sar specialists at Astrium, Europe's biggest space company.

Image copyrightOTHER
Image caption
Oil refinery: Radar produces images that are not always straightforward on the eye
A testbed has been flown on an aircraft, and you can see a resulting image on this page.

NovaSar-S will produce what are termed medium resolution pictures, where details on the ground larger than 6m across would be discernable.

The satellite will have a number of viewing modes that will enable it to perform a wide range of roles, from flood monitoring and land cover classification to disaster mapping and maritime enforcement - notably ship tracking and oil spill detection.

An application where the satellite could find a particularly useful role is in monitoring forests - or to be more precise: in monitoring deforestation. The cloud cover associated with rainforests makes Sar something of a game-changer in that sense, allowing repeat viewing of an area on a frequent basis whatever the weather. SSTL says three NovaSar-S satellites flown in a constellation of three could image any point on the globe every day.

The new amplifier technology will soon be trialled on TechDemoSat-1, a British spacecraft designed to showcase novel UK space technologies. It's possible that TechDemoSat-2, if and when this platform is approved by government, could become a demonstrator dedicated to the new SSTL Sar system. The rationale behind the TDS programme is that foreign governments and companies are more likely to purchase innovative UK tech if they see it flying first.

"We'd like to have a full-blown demonstrator for the Sar, and particularly with the objective of demonstrating services," explained Mr Gomes.

"It's nice to have the technology but we want people to engage in terms of services - to come up with uses for this sort of data for the scientific community and commercial world. These discussions are on-going."

[TonyGosling]

France to reopen Alps murder investigation of al-Hilli family after possible serial killer charged
Save
Police around the BMW at the scene of the shooting in woods near Chevaline in the French Alps. A British family and a cyclist were shot dead Thursday 6th September 2012
Police look into potential link between ex-soldier charged in two murder cases and Alps massacre in which British family and a cyclist were shot dead Thursday 6th September 2012
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/21/france-investigate-links-a lps-murder-al-hilli-family-suspected/

Henry Samuel, paris 21 DECEMBER 2017 • 5:31PM
Police are to look into whether a suspected serial killer could be behind the unsolved Alps murders in which a British man, his wife and mother-in-law were killed in a forest car park.

Saad al-Hilli, Iqbal al-Hilli and her mother Suhaila al-Allaf were shot dead on holiday in Chevaline, near Annecy, in September 2012, along with a passing French cyclist, Sylvain Mollier.

Despite a massive manhunt, the investigation has all-but petered out.

Police are now questioning a 34-year-old ex-soldier who is the main suspect in two other cases in the area.

One relates to the disappearance of a nine-year-old girl in August at a wedding where the suspect was a guest, the other to the killing of a hitchhiking soldier in April.

Saad al-Hilli, 50, the father murdered near the village of Chevaline, near Lake Annecy, in the Haute-Savoie region of France on September 5, 2012
Saad al-Hilli, 50, the father murdered near the village of Chevaline, near Lake Annecy, in the Haute-Savoie region of France on September 5, 2012 CREDIT: ENTERPRISE NEWS
The suspect, Nordahl Lelandais, has been in custody since September as part of the investigation over the disappearance of nine-year-old Maëlys de Araujo in the Chambéry region of south-eastern France.

He has been charged with kidnapping the girl, which he has denied.

"We are going to look at all the disturbing disappearances which have taken place in this region," Chambéry Prosecutor Thierry Dran told reporters.

The Prosecutor of Chambery, Thierry Dran addresses a press conference at The Palais de Justice in Chambery on December 20, 2017.
The Prosecutor of Chambery, Thierry Dran addresses a press conference at The Palais de Justice in Chambery on December 20, 2017. CREDIT: JEAN-PHILIPPE KSIAZEK/AFP
When asked about the Alps murders, Mr Dran told Le Parisien: "Given this new development, we will be verifying (any connections), and that will naturally be done, to rule out or include (the suspect in the investigation). It would be wrong not to."

Annecy prosecutor Véronique Dénizot confirmed to the Telegraph that the case will be re-opened to probe Lelandais' possible involvement.

"Verifications will be made in due course" to establish if Lelandais has any links with the al-Hilli murders. His possible links will be examined "within a reasonable timeframe" when staff is available to do so, she said.

"There is no particular urgency but verifications will be made."

No motive has been found by police despite exhaustive investigations in Britain, France and Iraq. Investigators have previously suggested the murderer's profile could be military.

Other potential cases that may be linked to Lelandais involve Adrien Mourial, a 24-year-old Belgian citizen who went missing near Lake Annecy in July, and Jean-Christophe Morin and Ahmed Hamad, who vanished in 2011 and 2012 respectively.

The cases of 24-year-old missing soldier Arthur Noyer and the disappeared girl have gripped France and returned to the media fore this week.

Lelandais has denied all charges against him, either replying calmly to questions while in custody or simply refusing to respond to allegations put to him by investigators.

Maelys de Araujo, a 9-year-old girl who disappeared during a wedding in the Alps in August
Maelys de Araujo, a 9-year-old girl who disappeared during a wedding in the Alps in August CREDIT: GENDARMERIE NATIONALE
The skull of the missing soldier was discovered by a hiker in early September, while Maelys' body has not been found despite intensive efforts by hundreds of police, backed by dogs and helicopters, as well as volunteers.

She went missing at around 3am at a wedding in August where Lelandais was a guest of the groom.

The suspect is an unmarried dog lover with no long-term job who drove a black Audi which has emerged as a crucial piece of evidence allegedly tying him to both murder cases. Her DNA was found in the car, which he washed the following day.

The former military man, who has short cropped brown hair, lived with his parents in the village of Domessin and was found by investigators to be a frequent watcher of online pornography.

Analysing his internet searches, investigators also found that the martial arts fan had looked up "decomposition of a human body" after the disappearance of the soldier.

His lawyer, Alain Jakubowicz, has blasted police and prosecutors investigating the Maelys case for leaking damaging information against his client, while Lelandais' mother has also leapt to his defence.

"He did a few stupid things when he was younger but he's not a delinquent, he's a nice young man. He's not someone who's aggressive, you can ask the neighbours," she told the LCI news channel in September.

The French army has refused to comment to AFP about allegations in the media that he was discharged in 2005 after four years of service because of psychological problems and drug use.

The Paris Match magazine reported that he was convicted for arson in 2009.

[TonyGosling]

France shooting: was Saad Al-Hilli assassinated over secret defence contract?
Detectives investigating the shooting in the Alps massacre are looking into whether Saad Al-Hilli could have been targeted over links to the defence industry.
France shooting: brother of murderd father wants to bring up orphans
Zaid, left, has told police there is no dispute with his brother Saad Photo: Juliet Lemon
By Steven Swinford12:15PM BST 09 Sep 2012
Detectives investigating the shooting in the alps massacre are looking into whether Saad Al-Hilli could have been targeted over links to the defence industry.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9531436/Franc e-shooting-was-Saad-Al-Hilli-assassinated-over-secret-defence-contract .html

Mr Al-Hilli was killed alongside his wife and mother-in-law last week. His daughters Zainab, seven, and Zeena, four, survived the killing.

There is growing speculation over the motives for the killings. French detectives are reportedly keen to question work colleagues of Saad after discovering that he was killed while working on a secret contract for one of Britain's biggest defence companies.

Mr Al-Hilli worked for Surrey Satellites Technology Limited (SSTL) near Guildford, and detectives are expected to ask colleagues about whether his work may have made him a target for assassination.

Mr Al-Hilli was part of a team involved in an undisclosed project linked to European Aeronautic Defence and Space. The company designs and launches satellites for clients who want an "eye in the sky" for commercial, civil or security purposes.

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However, friends and colleagues said his work was routine and not secret.

Shtech, the aeronautical business which he ran with his wife Iqbal and which had sub-contracted with SSTL, registered profits of just £8,330 last year. Derek Reed, who worked at SSTL, told The Sunday Times: "He would not have had to sign the Official Secrets Act for what he was doing."

It also reported that Mr Al-Hilli had worked at the internationally-renowned Rutherford Appleton research centre in the 1980s.

According to an ex-colleague at the Rutherford lab in Didcot, Oxon, Saad worked on a giant particle accelerator which can make radioactive material, The People reported.

Four-year-old Zeena Al-Hilli who survived the massacre by hiding under the her dead mother's skirt will return to Britain today.

Zeena who spent eight hours hiding in the car alongside the bodies of her mother and father, is reportedly flying back with two relatives and a social worker.

She and her sister, Zainab, seven, were the sole survivors of the killings in which their father, Saad, and mother, Iqbal, were murdered alongside an unnamed 74-year-old woman and a passing French cyclist.

The family were on a caravanning holiday in Lake Annecy in France when they were attacked on Wednesday afternoon.

According to prosecutors all four victims were shot twice in the head, increasing speculation that the family were victims of a professional hit.

It was also reported that French police are hunting two killers after discovering that more than one weapon was used in the shootings.

Zainab remains in a medically induced coma in a French hospital after being shot in the shoulder and beaten badly during the attack.

Zeena was yesterday comforted in France by members of her family, thought to be her aunt and uncle and is due back in England today.

Investigators in Britain are today expected to interview Zaid al-Hilli, Saad's brother, again as a witness about claims, which he has denied, that he was involved in a feud with his younger brother over their fathers legacy.

Zaid, 53, spoke to a cousin in Australia after being informed of the murder and broke down in tears. The cousin, Ali al-Hilli, told The Sunday Telegraph: "He kept saying: ‘Why, why, why? How did this happen?’

"I don’t think Zaid is coping with the pressure. He is really in very deep shock. When I spoke to him he was clearly devastated.

"He wasn’t coping. He is on his own. I think he feels lonely. I was trying my best to give him support although I am far away."



Not Forgetting the al-Hillis 22285
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/09/not-forgetting-the-al- hillis/comment-page-601/

28 Sep, 2012 in Uncategorized by craig
The mainstream media for the most part has moved on. But there are a few more gleanings to be had, of perhaps the most interesting comes from the Daily Mirror, which labels al-Hilli an extremist on the grounds that he was against the war in Iraq, disapproved of the behaviour of Israel and had doubts over 9/11 – which makes a great deal of the population “extremist”. But the Mirror has the only mainstream mention I can find of the possibility that Mossad carried out the killings. Given Mr al-Hilli’s profession, the fact he is a Shia, the fact he had visited Iran, and the fact that Israel heas been assassinating scientists connected to Iran’s nuclear programme, this has to be a possibility. There are of course other possibilities, but to ignore that one is ludicrous.

Which leads me to the argument of Daily Mail crime reporter, Stephen Wright, that the French police should concentrate on the idea that this was a killing by a random Alpine madman or racist bigot. Perfectly possible, of course, and the anti-Muslim killings in Marseille might be as much a precedent as Mossad killings of scientists. But why the lone madman idea should be the preferred investigation, Mr Wright does not explain. What I did find interesting from a man who has visited many crime scenes are his repeated insinuations that the French authorities are not really trying very hard to find who the killers were, for example:

the crime scene would have been sealed off for a minimum of seven to ten days, to allow detailed forensic searches for DNA, fibres, tyre marks and shoe prints to take place.
Nearby bushes and vegetation would have been searched for any discarded food and cigarette butts left by the killer, not to mention the murder weapon.
But from what I saw at the end of last week, no such searches had taken place and potentially vital evidence could have been missed. House to house inquiries in the local area had yet to be completed and police had not made specific public appeals for information about the crime. No reward had been put up for information about the shootings.
Behind the scenes, what other short cuts have been taken? Have police seized data identifying all mobile phones being used in the vicinity of the murders that day?

The idea that the French authorities – who are quite as capable as any other of solving cases – are not really trying very hard is an interesting one.

Which leads me to this part of a remarkable article from the Daily Telegraph, which if true points us back towards a hit squad and discounts the ides that there was only one gun:

Claims that only one gun was used to kill everybody is likely to be disproved by full ballistics test results which are out in October.
While the 25 spent bullet cartridges found at the scene are all of the same kind, they could in fact have come from a number of weapons of the same make.
This throws up the possibility of a well-equipped, highly-trained gang circling the car and then opening fire.
Both children were left alive by the killers, who had clinically pumped bullets into everybody else, including five into Mr Mollier.
Zainab was found staggering around outside the car by Brett Martin, a British former RAF serviceman who cycled by moments after the attack, but he saw nobody except the schoolgirl.
Her sister, Zeena, was found unscathed and hiding in the car eight hours later.
Both sisters are now back in Britain, and are believed to have been reunited at a secret location near London.

There are of course a number of hit squad options, both governmental and private, which might well involve iraqi or Iranian interests – on both of which the mainstream media have been very happy to speculate while almost unanimously ignoring Israel.

But what interests me is why the Daily Telegraph choose, in the face of all the evidence, to minimise the horrific nature of the attack by stating that “Both children were left alive by the killers”? Zainab was not left alive by design, she was shot in the chest and her skull was stove in, which presumably was a pretty serious attempt to kill a seven year-old child. The other girl might very well have succeeded in hiding from the killers under her mother’s skirts, as she hid from the first rescuers, and then for eight hours from the police.

The Telegraph article claims to be informed by sources close to the investigation. So they believe it was a group of people, and feel motivated to absolve those people from child-killing. Now what could the Daily Telegraph be thinking?

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Tim V
October 21, 2013 at 19:22
Welcome back Mochyn69
21 Oct, 2013 – 5:47 pm. We’ve missed you. Ref. Guardian Snowden coverage here’s a little piece I added just for general reading.

“It’s one thing to collect information on personal communiation, quite another how it is used. If we could be sure that the latter was benign – beneficial even – I suppose we could be fairly relaxed about it, as indeed the majority of the public appear to be. However, we cannot be sure to what use it will be put or who will have access to it. The so called “Five Eyes” work so closely together and potentially others such as France, Germany and Israel, and so many private entities, such indeed was Snowden, we cannot be sure who will have access to it or what they will do with it. So what if people realised that British and foreign governments were able to create detailed profiles of them, not only from semi-public formats but also from highly private sources such as bank details as well, that may have very practical implications. Being able to travel freely for example or conversely extradition with no domestic appeal. Some consequences may be far more sinister such as executive interference with normal life up to including assassination itself! This is no exaggeration. America, Israel and Russia all pursue policies of extra-judicial killing, either overtly or covertly. Indeed one of the reasons why the Al Hilli killings have received such widespread coverage, is the suspicion that this could have been a State inspired killing, perhaps predicated by internet communication. So were the British Government to admit that there are effectively no controls on where sensitive personal information may end up, who might see it, or how it might be used, would the British public be quite so complacent? It is clear both the activities of GCHQ and the NRA have been illegal. They use secrecy to protect themselves from the consequences of acting illegally, yet threaten the full weight of the law, up to and including permanent incarceration, against those who would blow the whistle. Nor is the public able to make any assessment of how collated information is used, nor if life circumstances have been affected by it. So the only thing that in fact protects us is trust in Government. Given all the national and international events that flowed from a corrupt and fraudulent WTC attack on 9/11, I for one think that that would be negligent to the point of recklessness.” Guardian 21.10.13


Tim V
October 21, 2013 at 20:02
Bluebird
21 Oct, 2013 – 7:53 am I couldn’t agree more BB! Anniversaries usually get the the programme makers off their backsides but as you pointed out in a later one, seldom ask the important questions. This was a major point of mine in the article I knocked out at the very beginning. (Incidentally it’s still up there on Google hits which is pleasing)

So now we have tonight’s Panorama programme. Panorama is mere shadow of its old self, as is the BBC having largely succumbed to the Government “sexing-up” attack, despite eventually being exonerated. One can’t help but see the shadowy spooky hand behind Leveson and Savile et al designed it would seem to undermine the reputation of the BBC. BBC holed below the water line, press shackled, particularly those outlets not prepared to sign up, the law used to curtail individual free opinion, control of public meetings and demonstrations by “kettling” and other methods, total secret surveillance, “robust” (as they are fond of saying) action against the likes of Snowden et al, greater political control of the police, setting up British “FBI” and so it goes on. So we can’t expect too much from the programme can we, however much they big it up beforehand?

However despite this, they must demand some tid-bits to make the effort worth while. So every time we get just the odd new “fact” that presumably has been let go to justify the effort and persuade people of the efficacy of “investigative journalism” and a not wholly waste of millions of pounds of an army of detectives. I agree this is all highly orchestrated theatre and collusion between government and broadcaster. It will reignite for a time in the topic which can’t be bad, for I am convinced far more turns on this incident than meets the eye.

We shall have to watch the whole programme to see what it comes up with but from the previews I have just one observation: if as now claimed THREE forestry workers observed both bike and car and their riders or drivers, why has it taken more than a year to even publish the vague descriptions now made? As primary suspects, virtually confirmed by the fact that neither subsequently came forward, is it not COMPLETELY INEXCUSABLE AND INEXPLICABLE that these were not issued at the very beginning? These are government employees for god’s sake. Photo fits and vehicle descriptions should have been the first step. The fact that they weren’t makes these statements, as with everything else, highly suspicious.

So was the 4×4 seen by WBM leaving the scene at the time of the murders the forestry vehicle or the vehicle seen by the forestry vehicle? Did these two pass one another in the narrow combe because WBM said he was about half way up when one passed him. The BMW x 5 was said to be one third up the combe at 3.20, in which case they could not have avoided one another could they?

Then we have the confirmed presence of an OAP cyclist who also arrived on scene yet has remained totally anonymous. Who he and who passed HIM?


katie
October 21, 2013 at 20:58
BB
“Interesting inheritance law:
Both girls get everything. Zaid gets nothing.
If both girls were dead, Zaid would get everything (given that he was the only brother or paternal half brother).”

That is exactly why it surely couldn’t be Zaid. He knew there were two daughters & I don’t believe he’d want them dead.


Tim V
October 21, 2013 at 21:12
Well I never! For the first time ever WBM now states it was the AL HILLIS (!) who overtook him on the way up!!!!

Also he comes up behind SM NOT overtaken by him. This means he would have had to be going FASTER because he describes it as a racing bike and being surprised. Yet SM is ahead of him, and also passed by SAH it is claimed.


katie
October 21, 2013 at 21:33
French police drive white motorbikes…..frequently unmarked.


Tim V
October 21, 2013 at 21:33
Next: the false interpretation of the reversing car and attack at the TOP of the lay by. Yet this is categorically contradicted by the fact that we were told ALL the cartridges were around in or under the final position of the car at the BOTTOM of the car park.

No mention by WBM of the BMW x 5 now that must have passed him if the forestry workers evidence is correct. Well i never!

British saying its French. French saying its British.


Tim V
October 21, 2013 at 21:47
So SAH only rang the bank on Monday but didn’t visit.


Tim V
October 21, 2013 at 21:57
ok people – what did you think of that?


katie
October 21, 2013 at 21:58
So why were no Mollier’s interviewed for that program ?


Tim V
October 21, 2013 at 22:01
How could WBM change his testimony so completely without challenge?

It has taken more than a year for the “green 4×4” that he categorically stated passed him has now miraculously morphed into Hilli’s red BMW estate.

Please!


katie
October 21, 2013 at 22:01
Very odd how Brett hears a revving car which could have been coming straight for him,but he calmly ignores it to move the child.
He then goes to the drivers side to turn off the engine & didn’t notice the passengers in the back……………until he walked around the car later.

Oh Puleeeeese, this is getting farcical.


Mary
October 21, 2013 at 22:21
Well that’s the surviving brother well and truly stitched up by Ms Corbin as the credits rolled. She presented the programme that lied about the Mavi Marmara slaughter, Death in the Med. The producer was Mike Rudin who also produced The Conspiracy Files: 9/11 – Ten Years On and other fiction.

More questions were raised than already existed.


katie
October 21, 2013 at 22:26
I’m on the Panorama Twitter feed.
This just came in :

ihsan_alhilli 14m
الحمد لله الذي نجى #الفلوجة البطلة من براثن #القاعدة الاجرامية وابقارها الانتحارية على يد ابطال الجيش العراقي الباسل

#احسان_الحلي
..

Bing Translates it to this:

ihsan_alhilli 14m
Thankfully the NGE # Fallujah heroine of the clutches of criminal rule # and her cows and suicidal by the heroes of the valiant Iraqi army

#احسان_الحلي
..

Can’t work it out…..


bluebird
October 21, 2013 at 22:27
More on al Sistani’s shia inheritance law:

If the two girls AND Zaid were dead, the inheritance would go to Saad’s paternal uncles and aunts (if they were still alive). If there are no paternal uncles or aunts alive, the inheritance would go to Saad’s maternal uncles or aunts (if there still are any).
I don’t know whether or not brothers or sisters of Kadhim are still alive.
I don’t know whether or not brothers or sisters of Fasiha al Shaban are still alive.

I just wonder about why both Zaid and the two girls are still receiving police protection.

However, if it was Zaid who let the family kill because of his father’s inheritance, then he wasnt very wise in order to let the girls alive, simply because he would get nothing as long as they are alive. He must have known that. I am sure about that.

Shia law as it is would not make any sense for zaid killing the family but letting the girls alive. He would get nothing then.


intp1
October 21, 2013 at 22:28
@ Katie
Going back to the discussion on the sophisticated active traction control system on the BMW, the wheels should not spin rapidly when stuck in the rut as BM stated tonight.

.


katie
October 21, 2013 at 22:42
Intp1
21 Oct, 2013 – 10:28 pm

Yes but that’s not my point, would you think that on arrival ? The noise would make me think someone was going to leave at high speed. Therefore I’d have stood back for a second or two to see what was going on.
Martin saw the girl & didn’t mention that it was odd or scary to hear the engine racing.


katie
October 21, 2013 at 23:02
INTPL

Nor did he know the driver was dead, so why did he not go to speak to him first ?


bluebird
October 21, 2013 at 23:11
Katie
That is my software translation. It makes more sense. However, i am not sure whether or not this is correct.

Praise Allah and Allah have mercy for the heroine, who survived and who was freed in Falluja from the clutches of al Qaida and their criminal suicide killers by valiant heroes of the Iraqi army.


bluebird
October 21, 2013 at 23:32
This is Ihsan al hilli whom katie did quote:

Ministry of electricity/iraq
http://newsle.com/person/ihsanalhilli/60766994

Facebook /ihsan.alhilli

http://www.paltalk.com/people/users/ihsan%20alhilli/photo_showcase.wmt

His facebook site might reveal some pretty good information around sept 2012 if you are aware of Arab.
Interesting are his facebook likes: e.g. the gulf war and the ottoman empire he likes.


Tim V
October 22, 2013 at 00:56
this is my quick take on the Panorama programme:

It can be viewed here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03fgstr/Panorama_Murder_in_the_A lps/

It concentrates on the alleged dispute over property between Saad al Hilli and his brother Zaid. In this, the latter denies any involvement in the murders and instead points the accusatory finger at the French, who he claims, know who carried out the crime and are involved in a cover up. For his part the Annecy Prosecutor rather confusingly states Zaid is the only suspect but that no court in France or Britain could find him guilty.

New insight was limited, despite Zaid and a Forestry Employee being interviewed for the first time and Brett Martin for the first time since his original BBC/SKY one. Unfortunately these added further confusion rather than clearing up unanswered questions.

Now WBM says he caught up with SM at Chevaline and thought it strange he was riding a racing bike on such an unsuitable route. This would mean he was going faster than Mollier yet later he is ahead of Martin without reportedly passing him.

Now for the first time Martin claims the Al Hillis pass him and Mollier up the Combe. He just drops this casually into his account despite its significance. You will note this is a complete departure from his original story in which a green 4X4 passed him both up and down.

Clearly the trained pilot could not have confused a red BMW estate car with a green 4×4, nor has he ever mentioned before the Al Hillis passed him. The programme in typical fashion, did not challenge this fundamental change in his story. Now only a motor bike passed him very carefully the 4×4 conveniently disappearing from the account.

The Forestry employee who remained anonymous, stated he drove down at the critical time yet refers not at all to either the Al Hillis or the two cyclists coming up. He says that as he passed the lay-by he noticed a motor cyclist on his machine parked up on his left hand side. It was suggested this was the lone killer waiting for the victims to arrive.

Then he adds that on the way down a grey British RHD BMW X5 passed him going up, driven by a dark skinned man.

This raises further problems as this vehicle must have passed WBM although he does not mention it. Also, unless it continued over the mountain pass it would have to have returned but again now no mention of it doing so from WBM.

The forestry man also adds that two of his colleagues had met the motor cyclist further up the dog leg that coincidentally had in early newspaper reports been inaccurately identified as the murder site! He said they stopped him and made him return down the way he came presumably following him in their truck. He says they saw his face and that he had a small beard. Presumably, and implausibly, they didn’t record the registration number.

So the first obvious question that was not posed was why were these details not immediately circulated with appropriate photo-fits as part of a general appeal? There can be no rational explanation for this. This programme proves that descriptions of primary suspects were for some reason withheld.

The second question would be, if as they are claiming, this was the single killer intercepted and sent back down the hill following the killing, not only would he have to have passed WBM now at the the murder scene, but the forestry employees would also have been the first to come upon it. Neither of these events have been claimed.

Or are they claiming this meeting was on a different day?

In addition, if there was only one motor bike killer, what was the role of the now claimed BMW X5? The programme does nothing to clear up any of these outstanding important inconsistencies.

Then the programme slavishly repeats the French interpretation of the killing events completely without analysis or challenge, despite it conflicting with what has been reported.

It claims the car was parked nose in at the top of the lay-by (next to the signage) and that the motor cyclist approached from beyond, firing at the two Al Hillis and the approaching Mollier. This simply does not fit. Even a school child could see it, yet a team of professional journalists working for the BBC can’t?

If the shooting took place at that end, the spent cartridges would be recovered there. But we have been told all the cartridges were found around, in or under the car at the BOTTOM end where it came to rest. So one or the other stories MUST be a lie perpetuated by the French. The lie is confirmed by the impossibility of the manoeuvre, given the fact that Al Hilli had already been shot before, it is claimed, carrying out a complicated impossible reverse turn.

In addition there was a fundamental contradiction between the claim that SM was shot at the top of the lay-by, yet was found by WBM in front of the parked car where it ended up. Nor is WBM’s actual reconstruction of what he did fit with blood stains. There are no blood stains in front of the car, they are all to the side.

So yet again a mainstream television programme fails to grasp the nettle. This is not investigative journalism, it is a conduit for agreed, approved story-telling, not to provide clarity and answers. Rather to leave the impression that the French best line of investigation is quite hopeless. Sure they have managed to uncover animosity and dispute between the two brothers but this falls far short of a murder plot. On the other hand for the first time a specific allegation of collusion and cover up is levelled at the French.

If any element of the story was consistent or believable it would help. The Panorama programme merely adds more confusing layers to the conundrum.END


Kenneth Sorensen
October 22, 2013 at 06:52
Here is a recording of Panorama: THE WAR PARTY , the transcript of which I linked to earlier.

So it seems that with important programmes, someone will upload them sooner or later. I suppose you recorded it, Tim, so why don’t you upload it?


katie
October 22, 2013 at 07:19
Morning BB.

Yes that makes more sense,so who is the ‘heroine’ ? Why mention Al Qaeda too ?

I don’t know if this will take you to my Twitter page, but there’s a load of Al Hilli’s there from last nights chat about the prog?

https://twitter.com/search?src=typd&q=al%20hilli


katie
October 22, 2013 at 07:47
Tim, you keep chasing your tail. Why spend so much time & effort trying to work out how it was done,it did happen,it makes not a jot of difference now whether the car was red white or blue or if it happened 3 minutes earlier , or later than stated or where the bodies were.
With unreliable stories, you will never get the true timings.

What you need to be doing is looking for a motive……or who ‘could’ be the killer.

Having watched BM again, I still think he was in on it,his action by moving Zainab before checking the car he acted as though he ‘knew’ the driver of the revving car was dead, how could he know that ?

Knowledge on arms to Iraq still remains a strong motive.


bluebird
October 22, 2013 at 08:07
Katie
I still have to verify that translation. Tomorrow i am meeting a native Arab. Then I’ll know

The heroine could either be Iqbal or her mother. I bet on her mother.
Was she captured by al Qaida in iraq (in Falluja – that is a Sunni town)?
And was she freed by the iraqi army? How many al qaida leaders were killed in this action?
How close before sept 2012 had she been freed? Was it her whom the killers searched for in surrey? Did they go to france in a hurry to hide her or to give her a new identity?

We should not forget that her brother in law Ammar al Saffar was also abducted in Iraq (and probably killed) by al Qaida. That would make sense.


straw44berry
October 22, 2013 at 08:24
I’m watching and re-watching last nights Panorama programme, the early part/reconstruction seems entirely without any semblance of truth. Couldnt even get the wheels of their BMW straightened as it was found, and as Tim says casings all in the wrong place.

WBM seems as unbelievable as ever.

At about 38.11 (when talking about the allegedly fraudulent will) into the program there are photos of the 2 brothers side by side, oddly enough this photo of Saad hasnt been seen before, it was taken at the same time with Saad in a blue striped shirt but has a lady’s hooped top behind Saad’s head and Saad looks much less happy in this head-on photo. It seems odd to me that 2 different photos would be taken in such a location. Perhaps Saad didnt know he was about to be snapped in Photo 1 and was not happy about it in Photo 2.

Photo 1:-
http://hinterlandgazette.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/saad-al-hilli. jpg

BBC credited Central News for this photo in an article.

I wonder who took these 2 photos and why.


bluebird
October 22, 2013 at 08:25
This happened with al Qaida in Falluja shortly after Chevaline:

http://al-shorfa.com/en_GB/articles/meii/newsbriefs/2013/08/28/newsbri ef-04

http://www.abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=385247

This happened before chevaline regarding falluja:

http://al-shorfa.com/en_GB/articles/meii/newsbriefs/2012/12/04/newsbri ef-07

Samira Alaani, chief doctor at Fallujah hospital, took part in a study in close collaboration with the World Health Organisation. Several tests conducted in London point to unusually large amounts of uranium and mercury in the hair root of those affected. That could be the evidence linking the use of prohibited weapons to the extent of congenital problems in Fallujah.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-s-fallujah-legacy-white-phosphoro us-depleted-uranium-the-fate-of-iraq-s-children/30372

A subsequent campaign in November saw some 2,000 civilians and 140 Americans killed in a battle considered one of the fiercest for US troops since the Vietnam war.

The US response was swift and ruthless. In April, American forces launched an offensive to quell a burgeoning Sunni insurgency but it failed. Fallujah became a fiefdom of Al-Qaeda and its allies, who essentially controlled the city.

“The Americans did not bring humanitarianism or democracy, they did nothing good for us,” said 28-year-old engineer Omar Abid Ouda. “Even if they brought all of America to Fallujah to help us, what they did was far more cruel than anything we have seen in our lives.”Ouda not only lost his father and brother in the battles, his wife of two years recently gave birth to a boy with a heart defect.“I would rather let my son die than go to the Americans,” he said.


bluebird
October 22, 2013 at 08:39
That might fit well. So was the second falluja offensive concerted only to free 3 abducted Allawi family members?
We had already previously discussed the strong family and political connection between the Allawi family and al Hilli/al Saffar. There was at least one woman amongst the three abducted ones.

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20041110/NEWS/41110001?p=1&tc=pg

70% of Fallujah secure; Allawi family members kidnapped

FALLUJAH, Iraq — U.S. forces bottled up insurgents in a narrow strip of Fallujah on Wednesday after a stunningly swift advance that seized control of 70 percent of the militant stronghold. Kidnappers abducted two members of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi’s family in Baghdad.Iraqi troops, meanwhile, have found “hostage slaughter houses” in Fallujah, including CDs and records of people taken captive in the way of kidnappings and beheadings, an Iraqi military official said.Maj. Gen. Abdul Qader Mohammed Jassem Mohan, commander of Iraqi forces in the battle, said the houses were located in the northern part of Fallujah, where U.S. officials had expected to meet their toughest resistance.”We have found hostage slaughter houses in Fallujah that were used by these people (kidnappers) and the black clothing that they used to wear to identify themselves, hundreds of CDs and whole records with names of hostages,” the general told reporters at a military camp near Fallujah.

He was unsure if the hostage records included the names of missing British aide worker Margaret Hassan or missing French journalists Christian Chesnot and Georges Malbrunot.

The insurgents have been seeking to open a “second front” to divert U.S. and Iraqi forces from the Fallujah offensive. The kidnapping of Allawi’s cousin, Ghazi Allawi, and the cousin’s daughter-in-law may be part of the campaign.

Ansar al-Jihad claimed in a Web posting to have carried out the kidnapping and threatened to behead the hostages within 48 hours unless the siege of Fallujah was lifted and prisoners were freed.Ansar al-Jihad said it abducted three people – a cousin of Allawi, the cousin’s wife and another relative. Initial police reports, later corrected by the government, had said three people were kidnapped


katie
October 22, 2013 at 08:46
BB.

I asked him to say it English, this is his answer:

@ihsan_alhilli 16m
@K69atie I was thanking my god for saving Fallouja by the iraqi heros after it was attacked by the suicide bombers of alqaeda criminals


intp1
October 22, 2013 at 09:17
@Tim V
22 Oct, 2013 – 12:56 am

Agreed nothing believable there but since the show is extremely likely to be disinformation, one could potentially derive in the negative, something from what they are underlining. If they shouting and pointing over here! What are they leading us away from?

E.g. Martin now, after 13 months says he saw the BMW go up. That ties in with the photos in the village, which since they have never been produced (or even talked about last night) I conclude, don’t exist. Ergo SAH and Co had been up there longer than they want everybody to think.

It is is strange, the crystallization of the motorcyclist from vague sightings to witnessed approaching the scene, waiting at the scene and on route to escape. This is according to anonymous, ‘pixelated’ “forestry” workers. The film takes it as given he is the killer and depicts him for us in the act.
As you say, If the biker is so obviously the suspect from eye witnesses that would have been interrogated within 24 hours. Why wasn’t everybody concentrated on him in Sept 2012? Also the girl was reported to have said there was nobody at the lay-by when she arrived.

A logical answer is Misdirection; like a card trick, watch this hand while I deceive with the other.

[TonyGosling]

French Alps shooting: photographs taken minutes before murders
This article is more than 7 years old
Police remain baffled despite saying snaps may discredit claim Saad al-Hilli drove his family to a prearranged 'secret' meeting
Kim Willsher
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/12/french-alps-shooting-pho tographs-taken

Fri 12 Oct 2012 18.17 BSTFirst published on Fri 12 Oct 2012 18.17 BST
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Alps shooting
Police inspect a drain under the road near the murder scene at Cheverlaine. Scepticism is growing over the claim that a French cyclist was target. Photograph: Chris Ison/PA
At La Place du Martinet at the very top of the Combe d'Ire, a handful of wilted flowers give the only clue to the mysterious events at this Alpine beauty spot just over a month ago, when a British family and a French cyclist were gunned down.

Police barriers blocking the winding, unmade road have been removed and the local amateur cyclists who puff their way up the challenging climb have returned.

The Combe d'Ire has become an endurance test for all, not least the French and British investigators who are still baffled by the shooting of Surrey-based engineer Saad al-Hilli, 50, his dentist wife, Iqbal, 47, and her mother, Suhaila al-Allaf, as well as local cyclist Sylvain Mollier.

Advertisement
Newly discovered photographs of the Hillis with their daughters Zainab, seven, and Zeena, four, who survived the attack, only add to the mystery. The holiday snaps, which have not been released, were taken by Mr Hilli and show his wife, mother and daughters smiling outside a picture-postcard local house, decked with flowers, close to the nearby village of Doussard, half a mile from where the attack happened.

Detectives believe that minutes after the pictures were taken, the family were killed. Officers believe the snaps go some way to discrediting claims that the 50-year-old had driven his family up the Combe d'Ire for a prearranged "secret" meeting, but admit they are sure of nothing.


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"Every lead is still being investigated. But looking at the photos, it's clear these were people who had no idea what was waiting for them," said a source close to the inquiry. "It was just before they were killed, but they don't look in the slightest bit worried. They are all smiling. It's a normal, happy holiday photograph."

The investigating judge has refused to release the pictures, deeming them too morbid.

The three adults in the family's BMW estate were shot in the head twice. Mollier, the French cyclist who appears to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, was shot with at least five bullets. Police found a total of 25 bullet casings at the scene. Some of the shells were found inside the car, which was still running when the murder victims were discovered, suggesting some shots were fired at close range.

Zainab was pistol-whipped and left for dead, while Zeena cowered terrified under her dead mother's legs for eight hours before being discovered by police, who had sealed off the scene to avoid having evidence contaminated until the arrival of a specialist forensic science team.

Police reopened the Place du Martinet and the Combe d'Ire shortly after the killings, then closed it, fearing "murder tourism" and an invasion of journalists. Last week, alongside the dessicating flowers, police also found the ashes of a recent campfire.

Last week a public prosecutor, Eric Maillaud, appealed for witnesses who may have seen the Hillis' car. According to sources, police are struggling under a weight of evidence including documents relating to Iraqi-born Mr Hilli's affairs in Spanish, Arabic and English, which need to be translated. Sources say police are "optimistic" but not confident of solving the case rapidly. "They are exploring every lead, every person, every bit of paper, without really knowing what they are looking for," said one local journalist close to the inquiry. "Nobody in the case appears to be normal and straightforward."

In the past five weeks, 650 people have been interviewed by detectives, but few pieces of the jigsaw have come together, hence a new hotline and the request for witnesses. "Any witness having complementary information about the events of 5 September 2012 at Doussard, on the route de la Combe d'Ire and on the al-Hilli family's stay in France … all those who may have had contact with this British family, as well as those present in the Chevaline and Doussard area the afternoon of the incident are asked to contact the gendarmerie," the appeal read.

Last week, it was claimed the family had a Swiss bank account and that Mr Hilli had been in Geneva shortly before his death. An illegal Taser gun was found in the family's Surrey home.

Police are unconvinced by suggestions the real target may have been Mollier, a local father of three said to have worked for the French nuclear giant Areva. Mollier, they say, worked as a welder in a workshop at a subsidiary of Areva. "He doesn't appear to have been exposed to nuclear secrets," said a source.

[Whitehall_Bin_Men]

Suspect arrested in unsolved 2012 murder of British family and French cyclist in French Alps
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/12/europe/france-arrest-british-family -shootings-intl/index.html

By Xiaofei Xu and Camille Knight, CNN

Updated 0725 GMT (1525 HKT) January 13, 2022

Paris (CNN)A man was arrested in the French Alps on Wednesday on suspicion of murdering four people, including three members of a British family, more than nine years ago, the Annecy prosecutor's office said in a statement.

Saad al-Hilli, his wife, Ikbal al-Hilli, and his 74-year-old mother-in-law were shot dead on the outskirts of Chevaline, near Lake Annecy, on September 5, 2012. The al-Hillis' two young daughters survived the shootings, one with wounds from a beating and a gunshot.
A French cyclist, Sylvain Mollier, was also shot dead at the same time.

"A person was put in custody on January 12, 2022 at 8:05 a.m. (local) by the investigation unit of Chambéry in relation with the murder of the Al Hili family and Sylvain Mollier, dubbed the 'Chevaline case,'" the statement said.

The arrest was carried out to verify the suspect's schedule, according to the statement.

The unnamed man, who was living with his partner, was arrested on the order of the investigating judge assigned to the case, according to CNN's affiliate BFMTV. He has previously been heard as a witness in this case.
His home was also searched on Wednesday morning.
This is not the first time someone has been put in custody by the investigation team. None of the previous arrests led to a breakthrough or a charge.
Last September, a crime reconstruction was carried out in the village of Chevaline in the presence of many witnesses, according to BFMTV. Investigators were attempting to retrace the killer's route and time their actions.
The reasons for the attack remain a mystery.

Born in Baghdad, Iraq, in 1962, Saad al-Hilli was a naturalized British citizen who had lived in the United Kingdom for decades. He was an engineer working at Surrey Satellite Technology, a high-tech company owned by EADS, an aerospace corporation that builds satellites.
He lived with his wife in the town of Claygate, in the southern English county of Surrey. The couple's elder daughter, age seven at the time, was found badly injured by a British cyclist who was the first to come across the scene of the shootings. The second daughter, age four, was only discovered hours later hiding in the back of the car under her dead mother's legs.