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James C
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 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| alfsevic wrote: | Hi all,
after reading most of the posts, I decided maybe I should register here in case I wanted to comment. After reading about Peak Oil I was fairly shocked and searched for more information, after finding the names of people who had worked in the bush regime saying Peak Oil was a fact I became a bit doubtful and at this site put my mind at ease.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/peak_oil/index.htm
alfsevic |
Hi alfsevic,
Welcome to the site. I hope you enjoy your stay.
With reference to Prison Planet, read it at your peril. It is a very biased site and its name suggests why. Alex Jones cannot and will not tolerate any outside factor which could be to blame for the decisions those in power make. As far as he is concerned, the PTB are controlling everything and that includes peak oil propoganda. He sees us all as slaves to the system which partly we are but not in the way he'd love us to believe.
There are literally hundreds of independent experts on the subject of peak oil who are not being bought to promote this stuff. If peak oil were a conspiracy then GW would have mentioned it in public by now; he's never uttered the words, not on TV or radio anyway. Peak oil is as obvious as tomorrow seeing the sun rise and only the abiotic crowd make the claim that it is nonsense; of which Alex Jones is one. Let's not forget that Jones is American and probably drives a big American car and eats at McDonalds. He's just like everyone else, he sticks his head in the sand except that in his case, because he has a fancy website and devoted following, he can broadcast his own twisted thoughts to make it appear all the more sinister, as always.
If you want to be like Jones then that is fine although you may just be digging yourself a hole. If, instead you'd rather learn a thing or two and actually reasearch this stuff, which Jones appears never to have done, then you can do no worse that look at the sites below. The end game has started and the big guys know it. We are in for some very difficult years as the politics and war machinery play out in the fight for energy and control. While the US and UK are getting stuck into Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran in the name of the war on terror, Russia is quietly getting on with controlling the oil and gas supply to Europe, knowing full well that we are in a very weak position now that our own energy is running out at a rate of 8% per year!!!
Russia oil row hits Europe supply
Energy Bulletin
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brian
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Disco_Destroyer
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TonyGosling
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Dogsmilk
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | can be hijacked & turned into a nightmarish undemocratic state control of everything |
And it's the one aspect of socialism that dear old Tony still has a place for in UKinc.
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TimmyG
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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i can't see whats going on at the moment as anything like socialism.
surely socialism is about workers rights being more important than private capital? the free market is a nice idea but it is the free market that has led to these monopolies we have now. The people pulling the strings are those people who own the largest capital, largely through family/inheritance.. not the people we vote for.
unfortunately the previous examples of communism in history show us leaders who had to take desperate measures to fight international capitalism.. .. stalin was a corrupt nutter and our western history books likes to tell us about all the bad things communism did in the past, and non of the positives.
I don't really know what the best design for a fairer society is. but it isn't capitalism.
i'm a peak oiler and i believe that capitalism will be the downfall of western society when the oil runs out. without a planned economy things are gonna go tits up.
| Quote: | Socialism is a noble old cause where the most essential natural monopolies: railways, water, electricity, gas etc. are state run to keep the corporate pigs from fouling up the common space which everybody needs.
Socialism has been demonised in the USA and of course can be hijacked & turned into a nightmarish undemocratic state control of everything as in old Russia and China. |
exactly.
i'm sorry i missed your meeting in manchester tony. if it was more city centre i would have made it down.
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rodin
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James C
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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As I said, you obviously know very little about what peak oil means.
Oil under Alaska, of course there is, masses of it, but when maximum output from Alaska becomes only 1 million barrels per day after 5 years (as predicted) of drilling then this will hardly offset the decline in long established oil fields around the world which will amount to an 8% per year on year (as predicted) decline or 6 million barrels per day. And when oil output falters by even a small amount then that will affect economic growth. I suggets you research fractional reserve banking to appreciate why this is not good.
Synthetic oil requires energy to make it. Where does that energy come from when energy as a whole is in decline. If you have an amount of energy (coal), part of which is turned into another type of energy (oil) of which some is lost in the process, it doesn't take much to work out that after a short while, you are consuming it at a faster rate than if it were coming staright out of the ground. One has to ask, why bother making synthetic oil when renewables are available. Could it be because it is necessary for everything we do in Western society? Of course it is. Start turning coal into oil and we'll be no better off in ten years when you consider how much we use and are expected to use in ten year time (over 100 million barrels per day).
You are correct about the credit issue though but please don't ignore the oil issue just because you prefer to believe in some mass conspiracy. We wouldn't be fighting in the Middle East if it were just a conspiracy and there's masses of oil, there'd be no point |
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rodin
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As I said, you obviously know very little about what peak oil means. |
Au contraire mon ami. I am aware of what it is supposed to mean - that we will suffer a decline in oil production globally from - well about now. Gahwar (sp) & all that. Not rocket science is it? A 'non renewable resource' running out etc. Plus of course oil in the argi biz is huge so less oil less food less us etc.
| Quote: | | Oil under Alaska, of course there is, masses of it, but when maximum output from Alaska becomes only 1 million barrels per day after 5 years (as predicted) of drilling then this will hardly offset the decline in long established oil fields around the world which will amount to an 8% per year on year (as predicted) decline or 6 million barrels per day. And when oil output falters by even a small amount then that will affect economic growth. |
Let's not forget the oil under Antartica either. What do you think the Falklands was all about? Sheep? As for your argument, do you really think I am unaware of this? Heck, I even posted a warning on it some years ago...
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:SBkRa-8du6AJ:www.contrarianthinke r.com/Oil%2520Catch%252022.htm+contrarianthinker+peak+oil&hl=en&ct=cln k&cd=1
These days I have moved on. I know nothing is as it seems.
| Quote: | | I suggets you research fractional reserve banking to appreciate why this is not good. |
Have you seen 'The Money Masters'? Or the less explosive/exposive 'From Freedom to Fascism'? Do you know who the ultimate shareholders are in the Fed & BoE? Have U read the Creature from Jekyll Island?
Wrap yer listening tackle around this..
http://dissential.com/files/Greyman%20-%204EVR.mp3
Yep that's me
| Quote: | | Synthetic oil requires energy to make it. Where does that energy come from when energy as a whole is in decline. |
More coal? Nuclear? Or even http://www.steorn.net/frontpage/default.aspx?p=1
 Germany managed to do it during WW2 when it was denied crude.
| Quote: | | We wouldn't be fighting in the Middle East if it were just a conspiracy and there's masses of oil, there'd be no point |
The point could also be
1) so that Rothschild's Israel can control and broker the price for oil or
2) to hold China back so the West can defeat her militarily before she overtakes the US as military and economic superpower or
3) just to stir things up because the top make the most money while we lose our lives and our shirts
4) as part of global depop endgame (Remember our Queen's hubby wanting to come back as a virus to wipe out humanity?)
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rodin
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| Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: There is nothing Socialist about New Labour |
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| TonyGosling wrote: | There is nothing Socialist about New Labour - it is controlled by the City of London which is dedicated to rule by money and to corporate control of press and parliament.
Socialism is a noble old cause where the most essential natural monopolies: railways, water, electricity, gas etc. are state run to keep the corporate pigs from fouling up the common space which everybody needs.
Socialism has been demonised in the USA and of course can be hijacked & turned into a nightmarish undemocratic state control of everything as in old Russia and China.
Tony |
100% wrong.
Nulabia is all about 'socialism'. Which is just another name for fascism
What's the difference between
state control of corporations
corporate control of the state
c'mon goys the curve ain't gonna wait 4 U...
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TonyGosling
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: Microchips planned for mentally ill |
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Socialism is simple stuff - public control of essential and monopolistic industries. 1950s British Socialism worked because of the spirit of the people implementing it. Of course it can become totalitarian when a Stalinist spirit is controling it but that's not inevitable. Socialism is utterly opposed to fascism which is based on private ownership, corporate ownership and control of the legislature. Our friend Rodin seems unable to comprehend.
Now, where were we?
Microchips for mentally ill planned in shake-up
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=I4VMVYL1KGVJBQFI QMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/17/ncrime17.xml
Great Britain: Microchips for mentally ill planned in shake-up
By George Jones, Political Editor
Last Updated: 1:38am GMT 18/01/2007
Radical measures for tackling crime - ranging from monitoring the behaviour of the mentally ill with radio chips to hormone injections for sex offenders — are to be considered by the Government in a wide-ranging policy review ordered by Tony Blair.
See also: http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-54526 9
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Microchips planned for mentally ill |
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| TonyGosling wrote: | Socialism is simple stuff - public control of essential and monopolistic industries. 1950s British Socialism worked because of the spirit of the people implementing it. Of course it can become totalitarian when a Stalinist spirit is controling it but that's not inevitable. Socialism is utterly opposed to fascism which is based on private ownership, corporate ownership and control of the legislature. Our friend Rodin seems unable to comprehend.
Now, where were we?
Microchips for mentally ill planned in shake-up
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=I4VMVYL1KGVJBQFI QMFCFGGAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/17/ncrime17.xml
Great Britain: Microchips for mentally ill planned in shake-up
By George Jones, Political Editor
Last Updated: 1:38am GMT 18/01/2007
Radical measures for tackling crime - ranging from monitoring the behaviour of the mentally ill with radio chips to hormone injections for sex offenders — are to be considered by the Government in a wide-ranging policy review ordered by Tony Blair.
See also: http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-54526 9
_________________
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
Cheers for the heads up Tony.
I've been waiting for these announcements for some time now. They are the beginning of the inevitable solution to the reaction provoked by the problems manufactured at the Home Office.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
Stand by for Control Orders by implant, then sex offenders, then dangerous criminals, you know the rest . . .
"We have some planes" to "We keep losing some prisoners" in 5 short years.
The Cabinet Office Review is here http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/policy_review/index.asp
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The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
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uselesseater
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: There is nothing Socialist about New Labour |
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| TonyGosling wrote: | There is nothing Socialist about New Labour - it is controlled by the City of London which is dedicated to rule by money and to corporate control of press and parliament.
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Apart from massive tax and spend economics (corporate welfare), continuous social engineering and constantly telling us what to think.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
Socialism is a noble old cause where the most essential natural monopolies: railways, water, electricity, gas etc. are state run to keep the corporate pigs from fouling up the common space which everybody needs.
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Captive markets which private interests will always try to get control of. the same reason wealthy industrialists supported the Bolshevic revolution and USSR. |
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uselesseater
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | | i can't see whats going on at the moment as anything like socialism. |
Yes it's a synthesis of the worst of both systems.
| TimmyG wrote: |
surely socialism is about workers rights being more important than private capital? the free market is a nice idea but it is the free market that has led to these monopolies we have now. The people pulling the strings are those people who own the largest capital, largely through family/inheritance.. not the people we vote for.
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We've never experienced a free market. Capitalism is just as idealistic as socialism in a way one relies on angelic governmen, the other on anglelic people.
| TimmyG wrote: |
unfortunately the previous examples of communism in history show us leaders who had to take desperate measures to fight international capitalism.. .. stalin was a corrupt nutter and our western history books likes to tell us about all the bad things communism did in the past, and non of the positives.
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Can a system which includes a period of Dictatorship be good? |
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uselesseater
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Microchips planned for mentally ill |
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| TonyGosling wrote: | Socialism is simple stuff - public control of essential and monopolistic industries.
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Or in other words, government control of monopolies in addition to government control over a greater ammount of public money i.e. mine and yours.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
1950s British Socialism worked because of the spirit of the people implementing it. Of course it can become totalitarian when a Stalinist spirit is controling it but that's not inevitable.
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The greater the ammount of government the greater the potential for abuse. You can't trust government.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
Socialism is utterly opposed to fascism which is based on private ownership, corporate ownership and control of the legislature. Our friend Rodin seems unable to comprehend.
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I think Rodin understands it perfectly well.
Corporate control of government and government control of monopolies sounds opposite but in reality it amounts to the same thing; fascism. Socialism and fascism are not opposed in any way. Fascism just means total centralised government control over everything. Hitler was socialist, and fascist as were the dictators of the old Soviet union by defention. The idea that the Nazis and Communists were at different ends of the political spectrum is erroneous.
Hitler himself said that National Socialism was basicly the same as communism. One fosters equality through fraternity and the other promotes fraternity through equality. |
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TonyGosling
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Dogsmilk
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Government institutions are more accountable than private - period. See the way as things are privatised all details are hidden under the excuse of 'commercial confidentiality'. And why do the fascists want to privtise everything - to take it out of public ownership. If you can't grasp this you're in deep trouble.
It's pretty much only the USA phoney 'culture' that's so hung up on Socialism being totalitarian. There was nothing totalitarian about the post war socialism in 1950s UK - it worked very well and was probably the only way we managed to survive economically... and repay the Marshall Plan debts.
Socialism is the most efficient and publicly accountable way to run major industries which might otherwise be run as a monopoly or cartel in the private sector. The New World Order People may well be thinking of some giant 'Conglomo Inc.' type company to run the various oil, transport and public utility companies - along the lines of Ettienne Davignon's massive public utility and banking corporation 'Société Générale de Belgique' - which is privatised.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9_G%C3%A9n%C3%A9rale_de_B elgique
See what I mean?
There's always the chance that socialist systems get Stalinised or Hitlerised - ie go secretive and totlitarin - but private institutions are set up to be like that.
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I (pretty much) agree.
A public sector industry exists specifically to fulfill its mandated function, nothing more. A private company exists specifically to generate wealth for its shareholders, nothing more.
Corporate bods hate the left with a passion because it has been historically preoccupied with such matters as pay and conditions, workers rights, healthcare, social security and the like; the NHS is a direct and specific example of socialist ideology in practice. Which, now socialism is being put to bed, is why it must be destroyed; slowly and methodically as the British public don't like this idea. We are a signatory to GATS (General Agreement on Trade in Services) which is the WTO's grand mission to privatise health services throughout the world to capitalise on the ever lucrative disease market. Where public services are designed to fulfill a function, the 'proper' way is to line some rich f*cks pockets. The idea that an organisation should be devoted purely to the public good without an eye for profit does not compute with these people. Somehow, a corporation that exists purely to make money and will cut corners and treat workers like nonsense to do so is more 'efficient'.
Which is another problem; socialism is generally occupied with keeping pay up and protecting terms and conditions. This costs money. Which is why the unions needed breaking. Corporations favour the 'flexible' work market - the hardest work for the cheapest price is the obvious imperative if money is the sole motivator.
There is a myth that socialist governments in the UK raise taxes to extortionate levels. Yeah, they have; they upped income tax for the rich. If you tax the rich and corporations, they get antsy and make a big fuss. If the rich get big tax breaks so social welfare can be cut, you hear less. Bliar has created a lot of taxes. So did Thatcher and Major (remember the tories raising VAT from 15%?) - lotsa swinging ones that hit the regular punter, but cut upper levels of income tax and corporation tax and you keep the right people happy. The rich. Who own the papers.
The dole is a socialist idea. Using tax from the wealthy to help the poorest. Rather than slashing tax for the rich and F*ck the poor. Yet somehow we resent the guy down the road for blagging a few extra quid from the housing than, say, the ECGD for propping up the entire homicide, sorry, ''defence' industry with our money.
Public libraries were always big with socialists and anarchists - the idea was it was valuable for the workers to educate themselves and fight for their rights. Back in the day, books were expensive and workers often have readings in working mens clubs to learn about stuff the elites would prefer they didn't know; like why they deserved a fair wage and a few days off. (I own a 1908 "Cheap Edition" of Kropotkin's "memoirs of a revolutionist" with really rough cut pages that I guess was designed specifically to be affordable - published by William Swan Sonnenschein, an Ethical Society member who published a lot of left stuff)
There is another myth about socialists attacking 'private property'; suffice to say, this is about stopping wealthy interests owning and fencing off the entire country as opposed to some agent of the state seizing your precious collection of vintage LPs.
All this is contingent on the political system of course - as with any flavour of government. Power corrupts, no matter the ideology. If the people don't control it, it gets out of hand. If the state controls the infrastructure, the people must control the state; that's how it can work. Except 'the people' don't control corporations; shareholders do. And the biggest shareholders are invariably the wealthiest. Corporations aren't and never will be democratic. And they currently have power to match governments.
Any totalitarian can call themselves what they like - socialist, communist, fascist, christian democratic - whatever they like. It doesn't mean they are that thing. Lenin said he was a Marxist. Marx thought the revolution would arise spontaneously when capitalism collapsed from its inherent contradictions, so Lenin was really reading into Marx what he wanted to see. Stalin could have said he was on a mission from God; it doesn't matter. Totalitarianism is inherently out of sync with the notion of a system that puts the needs of the population before the needs of private wealth, which is what socialism is supposed to be about. As soon as you put on a silly hat, adopt a funny salute and start running death squads, you've stopped being a socialist. Bliar isn't a socialist - he's a corporatist with accompanying messiah complex and totalitarian ideals. The guy's mentally ill.
And Mussolini said fascism is corporatism.
Look around you; everything is owned, everything is for sale. Even revolutionary ideas and symbolism are commodified. Most films are packed with product placement, Giuliani told New Yorkers to go shopping etc etc etc. The revolution will be televised - with ads for Nike balaclavas and bulk made molotov cocktails every five minutes and a phone in vote (50 pence per call - and the chance to win a DVD player) sponsored by Vodaphone to decide the winner. Governments are old news. As the Yes Men pointed out, old time slaves cost money to feed and house - modern slaves get below poverty wages and have to sort all their own needs out, making them cheaper and more practical. And Nike get to make a lot of running shoes.
For any wannabe NWO this is dream - private security firms answer to the paymaster rather than than (in theory) the public. If we're all in competition with one another, then winning is what's important - not helping out. If we're alone watching Big Brother and buying clothes online, we don't have a sense of solidarity. If we're all privatised, we have no need of community. If we worry about our temporary contract running out or we'll be sacked after that nasty illness used up so much sick time, we can't think about educating ourselves on what's going on around us.
And if we don't have a say in how anything is run because 'markets' run the whole show, it makes it harder to make changes.
So we're divided and ruled.
Personally, my own rather idiosyncratic ideology is more influenced by left anarchism than anything else (sorry, Patrick Brown!), but I'd much rather live under a society modelled on postwar UK socialism than much else on offer today.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Good thread this. Good old fashioned debate.
Excellent.
I particularly enjoyed:
| Dogsmilk wrote: | | Bliar isn't a socialist - he's a corporatist with accompanying messiah complex and totalitarian ideals. The guy's mentally ill. |
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