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Nick Cooper
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have. It fails to address what Visor actually does and instead seeks to propogate a fantasy version of it, in the same way that it seeks to bolster the fantasy idea of what Kingstar do. In fact, given the ease with which one can work out the sort of thing that both companies actually do, I would go as far as to say that either the "author" is not a fraction as smart as he seems to think he is, or he is a liar seeking to deliberately mislead.
Last edited by Nick Cooper on Sun Nov 25, 2007 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Prole
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| rodin wrote: |
Is Bridget Dunne of J7 related to Fintan of Zionist Gatekeeper fame? |
No, just a common Irish surname.
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rodin
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Staraker wrote: | | rodin wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | Re Canary Wharf, I did quite a bit of digging at the time (in july 2005) to try and find any corroborating evidence/witnesses for the report. I found one reference (that I believe prole refers to) to an anonymous reference on a discussion board. When I emailed them I received no reply. Beyond that nothing, nada. Now a smoking gun such as this would blow J7 right open but I could find no witnesses or chatter of any kind, so I'm inclined to agree with Staraker on this. As for the 4 being part of the Peter Power exercise, do we have anything to say that the exercise was anything other than what Peter Power says ie a desk based exercise.
There are loads of holes and questions in the official narrative but canary wharf appears like a deadend to me. If you could find corroboration or a police whistleblower that would change things but .... |
How would a 'desk based' exercise have to go 'from slow time to quick time' thinking if it was not directly involved with the tube itself? |
Are you serious? The events of 7/7 disrupted the workings of many companies not "directly involved". "Business continuity" - which is what Visor does - is all about maintaining a given organisation's continued operations in the event of both direct or indirect disruption. 7/7 will have prompted many organisations - both within central London and outside - to initiate their own emergency plans, the first steps of which would be to gather those persons designated a role in those circumstances. In the case of the Visor client, this would have been exactly those people already taking part in their exercise, hence they would have had to go from dealing with a hypothetical scenario to a real one. |
Are you out of your mind? What company of over a thousand people would run an exercise involving specific tube stations? Apart from one directly involved in the management of those stations? The point of specific stations is to create a simulation to see how the services react.
There is no doubt in my mind (and I take a lot of convincing) that a real exercise was taking place.
I also recall witnesses recounting large & anomalous security presence BEFORE any bomb went off. Perhaps someone has links?
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rodin
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| karlos wrote: | My theory is this:
The four patsies were hired to take part as actors in the drills.
You cannot have a drill without carrying out the exercise in person.
EG: everytime we have a fire drill at our place of work do we not have to exit the building and stand outside for a few minutes?
The head office for Tube Lines Ltd is in Canary Wharf
The head office for ICTS and Fortress GB is Tavistock Square
Verint are subcontractors for Metronet and Tube Lines Ltd as are ICTS
So it is highly plausible that the 4 were heading back to base or heading to Canary Wharf to carry out the exercise.
We know after all that the 4 were nowhere near the bombed trains. |
Ah - I did not know about Tube Lines being in Canary Wharf. Now that is a possibility. But what did the Luton boys actually have in their rucksacks if they were not going directly to an exercise? Why take rucksacks at all?
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PaulStott
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| rodin wrote: | | But what did the Luton boys actually have in their rucksacks if they were not going directly to an exercise? |
Bombs. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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And how would Mr Stott like his bombs today?
Le Menu de la Bomb a la carte
TATP?
Perhaps with a grated C4 flake?
HMTD en croute on ze side?
Drizzled in a Hydrogen Peroxide jus?
A little teaser from ze Balkans mais non?
Bombs that flambe or plain entropique ?
Would you like some more freshly ground pepper with that sir?
Time to meet le chef?
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karlos
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| rodin wrote: |
Ah - I did not know about Tube Lines being in Canary Wharf. Now that is a possibility. But what did the Luton boys actually have in their rucksacks if they were not going directly to an exercise? Why take rucksacks at all? |
A PACKED LUNCH!
we dont have any evidence that they had rucksacks or even that they were in London.
But assuming they were actors playing out a role it would make sense that they carried something.
If only a bag of chapathi flour.
Mossad has a long history of devious tactics. Mordechai Venunu thought he was goig to Rome for a bit of rumpy pumpy. |
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Newspeak International
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: |
And how would Mr Stott like his bombs today?
Le Menu de la Bomb a la carte
TATP?
Perhaps with a grated C4 flake?
HMTD en croute on ze side?
Drizzled in a Hydrogen Peroxide jus?
A little teaser from ze Balkans mais non?
Bombs that flambe or plain entropique ?
Would you like some more freshly ground pepper with that sir?
Time to meet le chef?
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This demands immediate action,let's have a meeting to discuss what action to take. Ian's diary is full for the next few months,but could probably pencil it in provisionally for say the end of May,but he doubts much progress can be made with this video anyway!
Oh and don't mention about little evidence of aircraft parts at any crash site, as they might have a cunning plan of releasing some footage between now and 2050 
Want to do something, do it yourself.
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| rodin wrote: | | Staraker wrote: | | rodin wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | Re Canary Wharf, I did quite a bit of digging at the time (in july 2005) to try and find any corroborating evidence/witnesses for the report. I found one reference (that I believe prole refers to) to an anonymous reference on a discussion board. When I emailed them I received no reply. Beyond that nothing, nada. Now a smoking gun such as this would blow J7 right open but I could find no witnesses or chatter of any kind, so I'm inclined to agree with Staraker on this. As for the 4 being part of the Peter Power exercise, do we have anything to say that the exercise was anything other than what Peter Power says ie a desk based exercise.
There are loads of holes and questions in the official narrative but canary wharf appears like a deadend to me. If you could find corroboration or a police whistleblower that would change things but .... |
How would a 'desk based' exercise have to go 'from slow time to quick time' thinking if it was not directly involved with the tube itself? |
Are you serious? The events of 7/7 disrupted the workings of many companies not "directly involved". "Business continuity" - which is what Visor does - is all about maintaining a given organisation's continued operations in the event of both direct or indirect disruption. 7/7 will have prompted many organisations - both within central London and outside - to initiate their own emergency plans, the first steps of which would be to gather those persons designated a role in those circumstances. In the case of the Visor client, this would have been exactly those people already taking part in their exercise, hence they would have had to go from dealing with a hypothetical scenario to a real one. |
Are you out of your mind? What company of over a thousand people would run an exercise involving specific tube stations? Apart from one directly involved in the management of those stations? The point of specific stations is to create a simulation to see how the services react. |
Well, given that Visor/Power came up with a similar scenario for Panorama, clearly we cannot automatically assume any direct connectioin between the client and the "target/s" in the scenario in the manner you suggest. Your comments also come across as a little naive. Let's suppose the client was a major merchant bank. They're unlikely to be conceited enough to think they would be a primary target, but they would want to know what to do and how they should react if a number of other more obvious targets - such as Tube and rail stations - were attacked.
| Quote: | | There is no doubt in my mind (and I take a lot of convincing) that a real exercise was taking place. |
Except that everything we know about Visor suggests that it was office-based/on paper/hypothetical/however else you want to describe it, because that's what they do. Maybe I missed the pages on their website saying, "We'll hire actors to pretend to be bombers/injured people/etc. ANd fake an attack in public that passersby will mistake for the real thing," but I doubt I did. In fact, I won't hold my breath waiting for anyone to find an example of Visor doing that sort of exercise for anybody before or since.
| Quote: | | I also recall witnesses recounting large & anomalous security presence BEFORE any bomb went off. Perhaps someone has links? |
That's just human nature, to make connections in retrospect, even when they're not valid. I can think of plenty of time when the police presence in certain areas has been high enough for it to be worth remarking upon. Usually it's because something happened earlier, but even if one doesn't hear exactly what that was for some, one doesn't automatically assume that they were there in anticipation of something happening later. |
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karlos
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Lets get one thing straight. Peter Power is a paid consultant. A hired hand.
He was hired to act as a firewall between the murderers and the police.
He obviously smelt a rat when he realised that his scenario was exactly the same as what really happened. His clients obviously suggested the stations and the modus.
It is constantly being said that these exercises are somehow routine. But how can something be routine when it has never happene before?
The 911 and 7/7 events have never happened before so why would companies plan for them?
Why not plan for realistic likely events?
Why spend how every many millions on scenarios that are one in a billion shots?
Verint/ICTS/Fortress GB are controlled by Mossad. These are the culprits and no amount of sticking fingers in the ears is going to change that reality.
Explain how a drill/exercise could possibly be carried out and NOT involve somebody doing something for real?
Stations would need to be evacuated to learn how quickly people leave and how passengers react and staff training and lighting, station signs, fire exits, etc.
You cannot PRETEND to evacuate a staion.
Euston was evacuated BEFORE the bombs went off according to local press reports.
Offices in Tavistock square were evacuated before the bus bomb went off.
Either these were drills or exercises.
Are we to believe that after the fire alert at Caledonian Road passengers were not evacuated from the station?
Replacement bus services laid on?
So what kind of pretend paper exercise involves that?
Why hire Peter Power just to organise a meaningless paper exercise which does not train staff how to react in an emergency?
Logic. |
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rodin
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Karlos - My take -Power deliberately warned us in a not-so-hard-to-understand code. He knew he would have to play it down afterwards, pressure from above - damage limit to the max or your family get it. He is a hero who did not in the end 'play the game'.
Plus he must have known about the parallel exercises on 911
Why would a poster have star in their name?
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paul wright
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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It's pretty simple , isn't it? I think Muad's got it right.
Peter Power needs public questioning as to what he said
I know he wont get it under the present operation. He's purely an expert pundit to pull out under any supposed threat.
But really a witness after the fact, and potentially an aid and abetter
How do you do it?
Spread the word - it's all that can be done. People have to wake up if our end is serious
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Newspeak International
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kbo234
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| karlos wrote: | Lets get one thing straight. Peter Power is a paid consultant. A hired hand.
He was hired to act as a firewall between the murderers and the police. |
Prove it.
| Quote: | | He obviously smelt a rat when he realised that his scenario was exactly the same as what really happened. His clients obviously suggested the stations and the modus. |
Why "obviously"? Wouldn't it be more likely for them to say, "You know more about this sort of thing than we do (which is why we're hiring you). You come up with some likely scenarios." It actually makes perfect sense for the contractor (i.e. Visor) to devised the specifics of the scenario, as otherwise if it was left to the client, they might think up something that they know would be relatively easy for them to handle. You can't prepare for the unexpected (in detail) if you devise it yourself.
| Quote: | | It is constantly being said that these exercises are somehow routine. But how can something be routine when it has never happene before? |
Exercises of the type Visor were carrying out - as opposed to the type you want it to have been - happen all the time, especially since Visor are not the only company offering this type of training.
| Quote: | The 911 and 7/7 events have never happened before so why would companies plan for them?
Why not plan for realistic likely events? |
Companies plan for various scenarios and it is naive of you to think that bombs going off in London would not have figured amongst the possible scenarios, given that they had happened previously on a smaller scale, and were expected to happen again. A few years back, there was a major on-site exercise involving a chemical attack on Bank station, even though that sort of attack has never happened before or since. By your logic, that exercise should never have happened.
| Quote: | | Why spend how every many millions on scenarios that are one in a billion shots? |
The general idea of bombs - even multiple bombs - going off again in London has long been considered likely. You might want to argue about the probability of the juxtaposition of certain circumstances and details, but the basic concept was pretty much expected to happen.
| Quote: | | Verint/ICTS/Fortress GB are controlled by Mossad. These are the culprits and no amount of sticking fingers in the ears is going to change that reality. |
Yet that - true or not, provable or not - has nothing tangible to do with whatever Visor were doing on the day. You can only link them based on a complete fantasy version of what you think Visor were doing, but in the context of what they actually were doing, there can be no logical connection.
| Quote: | | Explain how a drill/exercise could possibly be carried out and NOT involve somebody doing something for real? |
A hypothetical exercise on paper/Powerpoint doesn't need that sort of involvement, and quite frankly I'd stunned that you don't seem to want to grasp that.
| Quote: | Stations would need to be evacuated to learn how quickly people leave and how passengers react and staff training and lighting, station signs, fire exits, etc.
You cannot PRETEND to evacuate a staion. |
You're arguing on a completely false premise. If you have a bunch of suits in a room running through a hypothetical situation, asking them to pretend how they would react to certain incident/s happening outside of those four walls, you do not need anybody to "fake" anything at the actualy location of the hypothetical incident/s. It isn't at the level of the staff on the ground, but rather the management. At the end of the day, it's just a souped-up, more expensive, and more serious version of an old computer text adventure game.
| Quote: | | Euston was evacuated BEFORE the bombs went off according to local press reports. |
Proof?
| Quote: | | Offices in Tavistock square were evacuated before the bus bomb went off. |
Proof? Actually, I know what you're going to suggest here, but if you want to fall for it again, go ahead....
| Quote: | | Either these were drills or exercises. |
Or you have got completely the wrong end of the stick, and they weren't either.
| Quote: | Are we to believe that after the fire alert at Caledonian Road passengers were not evacuated from the station?
Replacement bus services laid on?
So what kind of pretend paper exercise involves that? |
You seem stunned that more than one thing could happen at roughly the same time, which is also pretty naive.
| Quote: | | Why hire Peter Power just to organise a meaningless paper exercise which does not train staff how to react in an emergency? |
Have you actually bothered reacing the websites yet? Visor trains management in how to react to an emergency.
Yes, it's a good concept. You should try it some time. |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| rodin wrote: | | Why would a poster have star in their name? |
Because back in 1986, when I and a friend decided to do a Dr Who fanzine, but also planned to do some other related fan publications, we chose the overall name of "Staraker Publishing" to cover everything, "lifting" it from the name of a spaceship that had appeared in a Star Wars comic a few years previously. The fanzine ran for almost nine years and the name was used throughout that time. When it can to registering here, it seemed as good a nickname as any. That's all it is. Nothing "meaningful" (except to me personally), no "hidden message", no tortuous anagram. Although it has been amusing seeing some people's paranoid speculations on the matter.
So why do you call yourself "Rodin"?
Last edited by Nick Cooper on Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Newspeak International wrote: | | Get the DVD and spread it around,this is the best and most credible scenario we have against the official account. |
God help you if you actually believe that. If anybody actually behind the events of 7/7 is still alive, they must be pissing themselves laughing. |
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kbo234
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Staraker wrote: | | If anybody actually behind the events of 7/7 is still alive, they must be pissing themselves laughing. |
But they're all dead aren't they?
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | | Staraker wrote: | | If anybody actually behind the events of 7/7 is still alive, they must be pissing themselves laughing. |
But they're all dead aren't they? |
I did say "if" - that could cover a multitude of sins. |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| kbo234 wrote: | | This individual's strategy is to fill current pages on this thread with highly detailed pro-establishment blather. |
Is it really? My only "aim" is to point out that one of the central planks of this film is based on either total lies, or a complete misunderstanding of that particular issue.
| Quote: | | His/her real purpose is not to win the argument but to prevent people from watching the film. |
How exactly do I "prevent" that? If people want to give up their time to watch it, that's their perogative, but having done so myself, I reserve the right to point out the very obvious holes in the "reasoning" of the "author" of it. Conversely, it seems that all you are capable of it pleading "watch the film" over and over again. One would hope that you may one day progress beyond this parrot stage.... |
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kbo234
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karlos
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | David Gibbs, 31, who has just moved to London from the West Country, said: "At first we all thought it was just a routine fire drill when they told us to evacuate the Underground (Euston) and there were the usual grumbles of irritation. But then when the announcer told us to leave the main station, his voice sounded much tenser and there was a definite sense all was not alright.
"Just as I got outside there was a thudding explosion from somewhere nearby, which sent my heart rate soaring. Minutes later the streets were in chaos. People were going in all directions. Some people were in tears but there was no panic, just general bewilderment." |
from East London Advertiser 13/7/05 |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| karlos wrote: | | Quote: | David Gibbs, 31, who has just moved to London from the West Country, said: "At first we all thought it was just a routine fire drill when they told us to evacuate the Underground (Euston) and there were the usual grumbles of irritation. But then when the announcer told us to leave the main station, his voice sounded much tenser and there was a definite sense all was not alright.
"Just as I got outside there was a thudding explosion from somewhere nearby, which sent my heart rate soaring. Minutes later the streets were in chaos. People were going in all directions. Some people were in tears but there was no panic, just general bewilderment." |
from East London Advertiser 13/7/05 |
Well, it's not credible to believe that what he heard on the surface at Euston was any of the Underground explosions. The Code Amber at 09:19 required trains to move to stations and passengers to get off. We do not know which line Gibbs was on, or what direction he was going in. It is quite possible that his train had not reached Euston at the time the Code Amber was declared, and may have been delayed in entering the station if there was already another train there or ahead of him in the tunnel that needed to be emptied first. 28 minutes may seem a lot, but it's not unfeasible for one individual to take that long to get to the surface in time into hear the Tavistock Square explosion at 09:47 in the midst of such a massive evacuation. |
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kbo234
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karlos
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Staraker - i know that if you take each report and each occurance in isolation you can explain them away as pure coincidences.
But at some stage even you will reach that tipping point where you realise that there are just too many coincidences.
I cannot see any evidence that suggests that it was peter Power who invented the scenario.
More likely his clients engaged him to act out a given scenario of their choosing.
When in May 2005 London Underground carried out their Chemical Leak scenario. You will recall fire brigades, ambulances and specialist staff including police all took part in the exercises.
They were wearing rubber suits and breathing aparatus and an undergroungd station was closed.
So why on 7/7/2005 would the drills and exercises not have involved staff acting out what they would do in the event of an explosion?
Military exercises involve firing rockets and bullets.
fire drills involve evacuating buildings.
Why would these drills not be the same and involve real people? |
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Nick Cooper
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| karlos wrote: | Staraker - i know that if you take each report and each occurance in isolation you can explain them away as pure coincidences.
But at some stage even you will reach that tipping point where you realise that there are just too many coincidences. |
I see few genuine "coincidences," but I see a lot of things being misrepresented so that they look like coincidences, or otherwise bolster a particualr viewpoint.
| Quote: | | I cannot see any evidence that suggests that it was peter Power who invented the scenario. |
| Quote: | Level 3 - Scenario based exercise
A third tier of training consists of the design and facilitation of an actual table top scenario based exercise using our extensive library of images and likely scenarios, but based entirely on a probable risk to your location plus reputation and what your own response should be. |
| Quote: | | More likely his clients engaged him to act out a given scenario of their choosing. |
Again, I would suggest that it would not be good practice for a client to devise the scenario, as it would therefore not come as a "surprise" to them when asked how they would cope with it.
| Quote: | When in May 2005 London Underground carried out their Chemical Leak scenario. You will recall fire brigades, ambulances and specialist staff including police all took part in the exercises.
They were wearing rubber suits and breathing aparatus and an undergroungd station was closed. |
It was also flagged up in the media in advance, and was held on a Sunday at a station that sees relatively little usage at the weekend compared to weekdays. The similar exercise at Tower Hill was also "advertised" in advance, was on a Sunday, and used a station that was closed at the time for refurbishment, anyway. It's simply not credible to extrapolate either of those into "drills" at not one but four stations, unannounced and unacknowledged to the general public, and at the height of the rush-hour.
| Quote: | So why on 7/7/2005 would the drills and exercises not have involved staff acting out what they would do in the event of an explosion?Military exercises involve firing rockets and bullets.
fire drills involve evacuating buildings.
Why would these drills not be the same and involve real people? |
The do involve "real people," but in the sense of an organisation's crisis management team, who in responding to an incident would be expected to remain together at a central point, handling information coming in from outside, a situation that is eminently suited to an office-based exercise. The simple fact is that you do not need to act out anything outside of those four walls in real-time. Everything published by Visor makes it clear that they provide hypothetical training at a management level, not fake incidents for front-line staff on the ground.
Here's an example of another British company offering similar training:
http://www.continuityforum.org/Training/biscon
Last edited by Nick Cooper on Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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There were other events going on on 7.7 though wasn't there?
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kbo234
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Prole
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Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 632
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| staraker wrote: | | The do involve "real people," but in the sense of an organisation's crisis management team, who in responding to an incident would be expected to remain together at a central point, handling information coming in from outside, a situation that is eminently suited to an office-based exercise. The simple fact is that you do not need to act out anything outside of those four walls in real-time. Everything published by Visor makes it clear that they provide hypothetical training at a management level, not fake incidents for front-line staff on the ground. |
I hate all this speculation but when the assembled crisis-management team for the Visor exercise realised that the very exercise that they were conducting was borne out by real-life events, surely Mr Power was in an extremely uncomfortable situation to say the least? Would he fear that they may go to the press or even phone the police? Would his public 'confession' be partly to allay any suspicions that these 'crisis managers' would have had? In an interview with the CBC he was forced to admit as much:
| Quote: | Evan Solomon: We've heard something quite extraordinary - could be a coincidence or not - that your firm, on the very day that the bombs went off in London, were running an exercise simulating three bombs going off, in the very same tube stations that they went off. How did this happen? Coincidence, or were you acting on information that you knew?
Peter Power: I don't think you could say that we had some special insight into the terrorist network, otherwise I would be under arrest myself. The truth of it is - |
http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/july-7-terror-rehearsal.html#cbc
Until Mr Power has answered questions under oath to an Independent Public Inquiry outside of the IA2005 we'll frankly never know.
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'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK |
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