Thought crime

[rodin]

What comes to mind?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

How to associate inquiry with racism. Get a photo like this on Wikipedia



KKK were likely a false flag operation. Does the guy wearing the glasses look like a redneck?

More propaganda

[Dogsmilk]

rodin - could you possibly tell me:
a/How you can judge if someone's in the KKK just by looking at them.
b/What makes you think white supremacists are by definition also 'rednecks' (not everyone who's in the KKK looks like a yokel).
c/What evidence there is the KKK is a 'false flag organisation'.
d/Why Holocaust denial is in fact not a massive preoccupation with white supremacists? Because I think it is.

Why you ignore the fact the BBC article actually bothers to distinguish between white supremacists, anti-semites and Holocaust deniers.

[blackbear]

Some real hate crime.....

AlicetheKurious

Can you really not see?

By Amira Hass

Let us leave aside those Israelis whose ideology supports the dispossession of the Palestinian people because "God chose us." Leave aside the judges who whitewash every military policy of killing and destruction. Leave aside the military commanders who knowingly jail an entire nation in pens surrounded by walls, fortified observation towers, machine guns, barbed wire and blinding projectors. Leave aside the ministers. All of these are not counted among the collaborators. These are the architects, the planners, the designers, the executioners.

But there are others. Historians and mathematicians, senior editors, media stars, psychologists and family doctors, lawyers who do not support Gush Emunim and Kadima, teachers and educators, lovers of hiking trails and sing-alongs, high-tech wizards. Where are you? And what about you, researchers of Nazism, the Holocaust and Soviet gulags?

Could you all be in favor of systematic discriminating laws? Laws stating that the Arabs of the Galilee will not even be compensated for the damages of the war by the same sums their Jewish neighbors are entitled to (Aryeh Dayan, Haaretz , August 21).

Could it be that you are all in favor of a racist Citizenship Law that forbids an Israeli Arab from living with his family in his own home? That you side with further expropriation of lands and the demolishing of additional orchards, for another settler neighborhood and another exclusively Jewish road? That you all back the shelling and missile fire killing the old and the young in the Gaza Strip?

Could it be that you all agree that a third of the West Bank (the Jordan Valley) should be off limits to Palestinians? That you all side with an Israeli policy that prevents tens of thousands of Palestinians who have obtained foreign citizenship from returning to their families in the occupied territories?

Could your mind really be so washed with the security excuse, used to forbid Gaza students from studying occupational therapy at Bethlehem and medicine at Abu Dis, and preventing sick people from Rafah from receiving medical treatment in Ramallah? Will you also find it easy to hide behind the explanation "we had no idea": we had no idea that the discrimination practiced in the distribution of water - which is solely controlled by Israel - leaves thousands of Palestinian households without water during the hot summer months; we had no idea that when the IDF blocks the entrance to villages, it also blocks their access to springs or water tanks.

But it cannot be that you don't see the iron gates along route 344 in the West Bank, blocking access to it from the Palestinian villages it passes by. It cannot be that you support preventing the access of thousands of farmers to their land and plantations, that you support the quarantine on Gaza which prevents the entry of medicine for hospitals, the disruption of electricity and water supply to 1.4 million human beings, closing their only outlet to the world for months.

Could it be that you do not know what is happening 15 minutes from your faculties and offices? Is it plausible that you support the system in which Hebrew soldiers, at checkpoints in the heart of the West Bank, are letting tens of thousands of people wait everyday for hours upon hours under the blazing sun, while selecting: residents of Nablus and Tul Karm are not allowed through, 35-year-olds and under - yallah, back to Jenin, residents of the Salem village are not even allowed to be here, a sick woman who skipped the line must learn a lesson and will be purposefully detained for hours.

Machsom Watch's site is available for all; in it are countless such testimonies and worse, a day by day routine. But it cannot be that those who are appalled over every swastika painted on a Jewish grave in France and over every anti-Semitic headline in a Spanish local newspaper will not know how to reach this information, and will not be appalled and outraged.

As Jews we all enjoy the privilege Israel gives us, which makes us all collaborators. The question is what does every one of us do in an active and direct daily manner to minimize cooperation with a dispossessing, suppressing regime that never has its fill. Signing a petition and tutting will not do. Israel is a democracy for its Jews. We are not in danger of our lives, we will not be jailed in concentration camps, our livelihood will not be damaged and recreation in the countryside or abroad will not be denied to us. Therefore, the burden of collaboration and direct responsibility is immeasurably heavy.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/756413.html

[Dogsmilk]

Yes, the contemporary treatment of the Palestinian people by the Israeli state is appalling and far more serious than getting worried about the peddlers of baseless crackpot Holocaust denial theories not getting a big enough hearing - good point.

[blackbear]

I think the people of Palestine would welcome Frances to their lands. She can then make sure that the present day holocaust is not been denied, by the BBC.

Time for a change of country.....Frances.! This style of balanced journalism might be more suited to the Zionist Nazi colonial enterprise.

Dogsmilk..."contemporary + appalling". Interesting choice.....

AlicetheKurious

"But it cannot be that those who are appalled over every swastika painted on a Jewish grave in France and over every anti-Semitic headline in a Spanish local newspaper will not know how to reach this information, and will not be appalled and outraged.".

Take the time to watch this five-minute video. It's a rare glimpse of the reality behind the walls of Gaza, where Western journalists rarely venture:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15693.htm

[kbo234]

[Dogsmilk]

[kbo234]

[blackcat]

[Dogsmilk]

[Dogsmilk]

As an aside, Cole once said:

[ian neal]

We have been here before on previous threads discussing the holocaust.

And the question I asked here

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=89889&highlight=holo caust#89889

[Dogsmilk]

It's fair point Ian, but I think the answer is often:

"The Jews did 911 and the Jews did 7/7 and the Jews faked the Holocaust and the Jews invented communism and the Jews invented capitalism and the Jews run the world and everything would be great if we could just get rid of these goddam Jews."

[ian neal]

Well exactly

I expect this would be the answer from racists and far-right nut jobs (at least in their unguarded moments)

Posts promoting such beliefs automatically earn the poster a ban and their posts are deleted since racists and anti-semites are not welcome here period.

But as we know there is strong evidence to show collusion between the nazis and elements in US and UK banking/business (eg Prescott Bush) and between the nazis and leading zionists at the time. So it is not that I don't think there is not a hidden history to WWII and zionism. It is just that the holocaust is not where I would start in exploring this history and those that do think the holocaust is so damned important need to say why.

[PaulStott]

[blackbear]

AlicetheKurious
Israel won't be included in new genocide probes

HILARY LEILA KRIEGER, Jerusalem Post Correspondent , THE JERUSALEM POST Nov. 14, 2007

The newly formed Genocide Prevention Task Force indicated Tuesday night that it will not be examining whether Israel has committed genocide in the West Bank and Gaza despite earlier statements that it would be addressing the subject.

The task force of prominent former US officials was announced at a press conference earlier Tuesday and will be working over the next year to help the American government best respond to and prevent genocide.

Though one of the co-chairs, former US Defense Secretary William Cohen, originally said that the situation in the West Bank and Gaza would be considered, the task force later clarified that such an inquiry would be beyond the scope of the panel.

"Its task is not to determine which situations, past or present, including the West Bank and Gaza, constitute genocide, but to develop policy recommendations that enable the United States to prevent future genocides from occurring," Cohen, along with co-chair Madeleine Albright, said in a statement issued Tuesday night. ..............

http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/11/israel-wont-be-included-in-n ew-genocide.html

AlicetheKurious

And now, she is heading a "genocide prevention task force", along with other zionists. Because whether or not it's "genocide" depends on whether a tiny, exclusive club of zionist crooks and sociopaths decide: "is it good for 'the Jews'?"

If enough Jewish people spoke up to say, "these monsters don't represent us," the zionist elites would be stripped of the fig leaf behind which they hide their bloody crimes, in which they have deliberately made every effort to implicate all Jews. In other words, just as the Israeli occupation soldiers use Palestinian children as "human shields" when they attack the resistance, the zionist elites use the Jewish people as human shields in their criminal activities elsewhere.

http://www.judyandreas.com/archive20.html...Zionism Is Nobody's Friend..

Have you had enough? I have. I am tired of the manipulation. I am tired of watching people fighting; people who should be banding together in a common cause. I am tired of watching Jews and Gentiles being used for the nefarious gains of an extremely dark force. I am tired of watching the targeting and extermination of Muslims. I am tired of watching our rights disappear while the populace falls asleep in front of their televisions. I am tired of hate and dissension. I am tired of helplessness and hopelessness and an immobilized populace. I am tired of watching people throw their hands up in despair.

There are lone voices crying in the wilderness. Are these voices falling upon deaf ears? I urge every person of conscience to speak out. Don't be afraid. We are the many and they are the few. Add your voice to this group until the hushed whispers become a deafening roar.

Are you doubting what I say? Don't take my word, do your own investigation. It's a painful exploration but I truly believe that the balance of this planet hangs on the opening of Jewish eyes. There are many good hearted Jewish people who are being duped along with their Gentile brethren. Much of the world is waking up to the manipulations of the few and it is imperative that Jewish people join them. There is no time to waste. The information is limitless. There is no refuge for Jewish people in Israel. My dear readers, Zionism will not protect you. Zionism will crucify you on a bloody cross of avarice. It is only through a union of Jewish, Christians and Muslims that we will we be able to take back our planet.

Zionism is Nobody's Friend.!

[rodin]

@ Dogsmilk and Ian

You could hardly expect me not to bring up the subject of anti-speech legislation given the creation of this section? Conspicuous by its absence, the subject was.

Ian you ask what relevance today. Perhaps you address the question to the wrong person. Why not ask the ADL why it should be a crime to investigate it after all this time. And while your at it, point out that nineeleven is NOT a terrorist site, as 'they' (by implication) claim

http://www.truthnews.us/?p=817

[kbo234]

Ian, I expressed myself adamantly about the 4 million Auschwitz issue for these reasons:

1) Because an earlier thread used the catch-all terms of abuse that is used against anyone who raises the tricky questions about Zionism or who raise the fact that the media never have discussed certain 'holocaust' issues. Those terms of abuse are 'holocaust-denier' and 'anti-semite'.

I normally make a serious effort to avoid these topics on this site because it can play into the hands of those who want to trash 9/11 truthers.
However does that mean we must sit back and allow these people a field day. This type of empowerment of Zionists is at the very core of our popular political culture. It is why our society is effectively sitting back and saying little or nothing about the foul murder and abuse of innocents that is going on in occupied Palestine.

Yes, it effing is and you know it.

The idea that saying these things is an attack on 'Jews' is also false and this knee-jerk and fearful reaction is a consequence of exactly the kind of propaganda people like me are trying to warn against.

Zionism is the enemy of Jews. Here is a Jewish writer who would agree. His article tells exactly how he believes that 'Jews' are ill-served by Zionism:

http://www.savethemales.ca

Jewish people need to understand what the Zionists have done and are doing to THEM.

2) The holocaust as a tool of empowerment of Zionists (Christians and Jewish) is not a subject that has no bearing on 9/11.

It disgusts me to see many thousands of children per year being taken to Auschwitz for a weekend for 99 quid provided they promise to speak to all their schoolmates about it afterwards. The people who set up, organise and fund this activity are the essentially the same ones who brought us the murder of 3000 people in New York and death of more than a million in Iraq and Afghanistan.
These people do not give a fiddler's *uck about the dead of Auschwitz. In fact they gave the *astard the money that enabled him to do it.
At present these same interests are busy preparing the next holocaust and you and I and our children are in line to play the role of Jews (along with the Jews themselves and everyone else) next time round.

The reason they are happy to subsidise the sending of our children to Auschwitz is so that people like you, Ian, will continue to shut people like me up.

If you ban all use of the terms 'Holocaust-denier' and 'anti-semite' on this site then, fair enough, ban comments like mine as well.

If you are only prepared to intervene on one side of this argument then it is just too bad.

Frankly I am sick of these kind of exchanges but, nevertheless, cannot bear to suffer endless Zionist propaganda on this site, of all places, when every other corner of our sorry society is saturated with the stuff.

Has anyone out there got a ****ing brain-cell?

If after some long struggle we win the argument to the point where a new public Inquiry into 9/11 is held will you be comfortable with allowing the Zionist PTB to carry it out.
You may say it is not wise to raise this issue on this site but don't, for God's sake, say that it is not an issue.......and if no speaks about it (which, by and large, they don't....having been effectively conditioned by the 'holocaust religion'), how is anyone to know that it is an issue?

[Dogsmilk]

Yeah I get a bit sick of these exchanges, too.

In a world where people all over the place are struggling for free speech, in Turkey, China, Saudi Arabia etc, it's always poor, poor Holocaust deniers we should be feeling sorry for. Again and again it comes up. It's particularly ironic when the neo-Nazis among them start whining about free speech.

In a world where child labour is endemic, where Western backed dictatorships rule over impoverished populations on bothy sides of the Pacific, where massacres take place largely outside of the view of TV cameras, again and again Israel is the only country on earth doing bad things. The same posters again and again post endless diatribes about Israel. Has anyone heard of Indonesia? Somalia? Rwanda? How about the foul muder of innocents going on in West Papua. Whoops, sorry! No Jews! Move along there!

No offense, kbo, but I fail to see how sending kids to visit Auschwitz has got anything to do with anything. Sending teenagers on some school trip is hardly like that freaky cinema where they strap you in that chair in a clockwork orange no matter what your beliefs on 'the truth'. "Oh nooo! The kids are being taught genocide is a bad thing! It's the NWO in action! The-they'll all become brainwashed drones of the (ahem) Zionists!" And Zionist propaganda my arse. On this site, if you so much as pointed out an ordinary Israeli might have feelings too if their kid got blown up by a suicide bomber you'd get called ten kinds of Zionist shill. Plenty of people here think I'm a Zionist propagandist because I don't think the Jews run the world in a Henry Ford stylee and think the Holocaust happened.
Sometimes round here it's like Houston Stewart Chamberlain rose from the dead and started raising an army.

Btw - has anyone decided how they feel about David Cole lying to them yet? Shall I point out some more lies?

[karlos]

no, people think you are a zionist apologist as evidenced by most of what you have posted
your aparant inability to see issues in a non blinkered way

ps: why not send school kids to visit the Israeli apartheid wall INSTEAD?
And see the killing fields and Palestinian concentration camps.

[kbo234]

[ian neal]

I am well aware of how the ADL lobby is desperately trying to associate 9/11 with anti-semitism and terrorism. I am also well versed in MOSSAD / Israeli state terrorism. This is why I advise so strongly to leave the holocaust alone because the holocaust revisionist community is playing straight into the zionists/ADL's hands.

Indeed there is every reason to see the whole holocaust revisionist/far-right scene as deeply infiltrated by the ADL / the powers of darkness: opposames. Which in effect is the point you make originally Rodin. That the KKK is useful and controlled front to associate holocaust revision with more extreme holocaust denial with white supremacist lunacy. And in this point I suspect you are right. Just as there is considerable evidence of the security services infiltrating and influencing for their own ends (strategy of tension) groups such as combat 18 and the bnp they probably have infiltrated US far right.

My point is as soon as the nazi holocaust is brought up it automatically gets associated with far-right nazi nut jobs for the simple reason that far-right nazi nut jobs are interetsed in the holocaust. And more often than not they are revisiting the holocaust because they are actually apologists for hitler and his anti-jewish sickness. And within the holocaust revisionist scene there is no clear separation between nazi and non-nazis so it is understandable if the wider public fail to make this dinction themeselves. A classic case in point is the legitimacy President Ahmedinejad bestowed on David Duke by inviting him to speak at his holocaust conference.

Now if Mr A was serious about exposing the crimes of zionism and the state of Israel and the duplicity of the west, he would surely have been better not inviting a former KKK grand wizard and instead focus on

1) the current ongoing terrorism against the palestinians
2) USS Liberty
3) The collusion of elements of the west and zionist leaders with Hitler
4) The cover-up of the dancing israeli's on 9/11 and so forth

The history of the holocaust only needs revisiting ONCE there is widespread understanding of the west/zionist collusion with nazis and terrorists against the wider interests of jewish people.

For me what is far more interesting is not tedious debates about the actual number of jewish deaths but the game that the PTB are playing of associating all opposition groups whether they are on the left or right with

1) irrationality
2) racism/anti-semitism
3) terrorism

This article is an absolute classic written by Dave Rich for a HMG funded think tank. It in effect equates the BBC's excellent panorama programme on the neo-cons with anti-semitism and combat 18. We need to wake up to this tactic and make every effort to safeguard legitimate criticism of Israel, the neo-con warmongers and the 9/11 cover-up from being associated with the far right.

http://www.axt.org.uk/HateMusic/essay_rich_barriers.htm

[Mark Gobell]

It would be a worthy debate if we had all been subject to decades of Muslim dominated media influence.

It would be a worthy debate if we were subject to laws made by MPs who we never even knew, were Friends of Iran.

It would be a worthy debate only if those decision makers were funded by the Iraq / Iran / Syria / Lebanon Lobby.

It would be worthy of debate if our Muslim elite were engaging in a pogrom against their traditional enemies.

It would be worthy of debate if we had a Muslim Genocide Day in our schools.

If we had an Armenian Genocide Day in our schools.

If we had a American Indian / Aboriginal / Palestinian / Christian / Buddhist / Sikh / Russian / Mongolian / Greek / Persian / British / Queer / Gypsy / Chinese / Everyone-All-Inclusive Genocide Day in our schools.

It would be a worthy debate also, only if, few knew who the Muslims of influence actually were.

It would be a worthy debate if Islam could only be expressed, safely, as a political pseudonym.

And, of course, it would only be a worthy debate if we could be imprisoned for questioning any of, or any part of, any of all that.

[brian]

The "documentary" evidence dogsmilk presents and uses as a stick to beat those that deny any exists is actually nothing more than speculative inference.

We are supposed to take as conclusive evidence a document which implies (to the author) false shower heads and a gas tight door were fitted to a chamber.


Quote -

"This inventory indicates that the equipment installed for “Leichenkeller 1 / Corpse cellar [morgue] 1” included:

· “1 gasdichte Tür / 1 gas-tight door,” AND
· “14 Brausen / 14 showers”,

two items that are strictly INCOMPATIBLE with one another. This incompatibility constitutes the fundamental proof, ."


The logic is this - the gas tight door speaks for itself and the shower heads were obviously dummy, intended to mislead those to be gassed of the real intention.

Obviously it far from "constitutes the fundamental proof" of anything and if that is the best documentary evidence that can be presented then dogsmilk's arrogance is false or unjustified.

The Germans were meticulous with their documentation of every aspect of the war machine. So much so that the fact no documentation has come to light other than such a flimsy speculative paper that dogsmilk sets so much store by would strongly suggest that it was not documented because it did not happen.

[kbo234]

[Dogsmilk]

Just for the record kbo, I wasn't trying to insinuate you personally are some kind of Jew-hater - apologies if that's how I came across.
But nevertheless, the "Zionist mates" stuff comes - "You're either with us or you're with the Zionists" is how it runs a lot round here. Do you really, really think Israel and Zionism are the only things worth being concerned about? I proved my own point - suggest Israel isn't the be all and end all and suddenly you're a Zionist! Newsflash comin' - Henry Makow is no more authoritative the the sun (god I've seen some nonsense on his website) and David Cole is about as reliable as the sunday sport. If you trust David Cole more than the BBC, then it's up to you if you want to delude yourself you're at some kind of 'cutting edge' by choosing to believe 'arguments' nobody with a rudimentary knowledge of the subject took seriously ten years ago. I already showed you one place he lied, but those lies are better aren't they? Why waste time researching a subject when some nice man on TV can put all the pieces together for you? It's not evil NWO TV, so...it must be true!

You're right about powers deciding who lives and dies, who starves etc. That's been around for a loooooong time. Zionism is not very old. In the 1930s it was a small movement with very little power and pretty paltry support in European Jewish communities. The child labour etc was very much with us in the industrial revolution - it just got shipped abroad after through long and bitter struggle our forefathers won us some rights (Though some would have you believe those socialists were evil and were actually being run by the Jews). Whereas back in the day there were black slaves, now they don't even have to provide food and shelter for the slaves, just a well below poverty 'wage'. But this forum rarely sees rants against labour conditions in Indonesia or Vietnam - it's not Israel, it's not Zionists, so it can f*ck off. (except for the "Jews rule the world" mob who have that answer for everything). The banking system wasn't created by Zionists - in this country at least, Quakers have as much to do with it as anyone and I don't blame any Quakers I meet for it.
I don't care about people talking about Zionism - I'm not a fan of the Israeli state myself. I just don't think it's the one and only issue. And that's enough to make you 'pro-Zionist' for some. If we attack Iran, it will have f*ck all to do with 'Zionism' as opposed to a reckless and darkly rational struggle to secure and control dwindling resources, ostensibly for 'our' benefit. Which do you really think is more important - control of oil or the Jewish homeland? 'Zionism' has just become a bogeyman like 'the terrorists' where people don't even know what they're saying any more. The 'zionists' are all out to run the world like 'the terrorists' want to take our freedoms. Pardon me for thinking the world is an inestimably more complex place than some simplistic manichean demaraction of 'the zionists'=bad, everyone else=good.
Come to think of it, Im actually glad children are being taken to Auschwitz. Hopefully, they'll develop an interest and read up on it, inoculating themselves from being bamboozled by neo-Nazi inspired bullsh!t.
You accuse me of smears, but just take the time to research the Holocaust denial scene. Not exclusively, but you find the far right all over the place.
Why people who are cynical about the PTB think that stuff they see on the net is somehow gospel is a constant source of bemusement to me.

Brian - Actually there's plenty more where that came from and the Nazis may have documented their war machine, but to say they therefore thoroughly documented deliberate genocide is not logical and is simply an assumption on your part, particularly as it is not known exactly what documentation was destroyed in the face of the Allied advance. We know the Nazis talked in coded language (it constantly amazes me that people expect the Nazis to be have been writing "secret memo- Herr Himmler, today ve haff gassed many Jews". It's like expecting to find a report entitled "top secret plan to blow up the twin towers and blame it on OBL" in the Pentagon basment), but we know of at least highly suggestive exceptions like in the 'gassing cellar' document and Himmler's handwritten note in his telephone log. and stuff like the Holfe memo which Irving recently pissed his Nazi chums off by backing. Mind you, Himmler's Poznan speech was fairly explicit. With a bit of luck, you'll wheel out the hilarious denier 'debunking' of that for my entertainment.

But ok then - what is your explanation for the presence of dummy shower heads and a gas tight door in a crematorium building that numerous eyewitnesses said (prior to discovery of said documents) was used for gassings? The Nazis, after all, didn't just alter buildings for a laugh did they? Answer that, and we can add more and see how the whole big picture stacks up.

[Dogsmilk]

[brian]

Dogsmilk, it is not for me to speculate as to the purpose of the showers or gas tight doors. I could say for example that the chamber obviously had dual uses - EG for showering or decontamination. The point is though the document proves absolutely nothing and shows how desperate the anti revisionists are.

Like the Holfe memo it tells us nothing regards extermination yet you wave that now like it is of some import. Why?

You say Himmler's Poznan speech was pretty specific after saying the Germans used code. Could you be specific about Himmlers specificity or was he using code as well?

Your - "The Nazis, after all, didn't just alter buildings for a laugh did they?"

- only demonstrates what you want to convey, nothing else. Buildings are altered for all sorts of practical reasons be it by Nazis or others.

My approach to this is to learn, yours is to convince. You are not making a good job of it as far as I am concerned.

[rodin]

I just learned the KKK are a Masonic group, and we know who they are in bed with. As I suspected a false flag operation.

On another, PROVEABLE holocaust...

Sever Plocker writes

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

The comments are always interesting. I do not think most Jews know this stuff, and if they did they would likely be as horrified as us. Maybe moreso.

[PaulStott]