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iro
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 Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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can you send me that article please andrew?
cheers |
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John White
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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Having had my earlier posts referenced a couple of times i would just like to clarify:
I do not consider the evidance for ChemTrials to be weak: it is in fact very strong, its a real phenomona and it is happening globally
To make my point clearer, there is no conclusive data as to what the trails are composed of and what their purpose is, but they most definately are not any kind of normal offshoot of jet propulsion
There is a reason there is no clear Data, and that is that there is a concrete and absolute wall around the information of the most serious kind, equivalent to the security around atomic weapons. Whatever the purpose of these trails, the populace is clearly not meant to know about it. I refer to fertility rates only becuase these are declining mysteriously: of course this may have nothing to do with Chemtrails and could be to do with chemicalised food and water instead, or other factors
Of course skeptics and critics are going to try to pick holes in the chemtrail information: its what a programmed mind does instinctively. Whatever logical fallacies are concocted to explain them away, they continue to happen, and its for the aware person to inform themselves with what can be known about the phenomona
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Andrew Johnson
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paul wright
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Andrew Johnson
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| Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| MiniMauve wrote: |
3) What is the connection to 911? |
Indirect - after 9/11 planes were grounded for 2 days. This allowed someone to measure the "clarity" of the skies without regular air traffic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_trans.shtml
This eventually lead to a discovery of "Global dimming" - in Israel, the intensity of certain wavelengths of sunlight reaching the ground had dropped by 22%.
Now, what could've caused that, then ay? Maybe a deliberate, undisclosed spraying of particulate matter, under the disguise of ordinary air traffic.
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marky 54
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | Just one quick point -
why do they choose to lay down these chemtrails on clear still days when they'll be visible to millions of people? Taking the mickey?
or could it be that hydrocarbon fuels produce water as a by-product of combustion, and this forms into a billion ice crystals that take an age to disperse when there's no wind up there?
just wondering, like |
how do we know they only choose clear days? if its cloudy we carnt see em, hence clear skys while there being filmed(as its the only time you can film them). im sure the guys filming it didnt want to show us a bunch of grey clouds with nothing much to see, which makes sense and should of done in the beginning. |
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MiniMauve
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: | | MiniMauve wrote: | I have a some obvious questions off the top of my head reguarding this theory:
1) What is the motive? John White mentioned infertility, but that begs the question, why would western governments want to reduce their populations even further? Most demographic reports I've read identify the lack of fertility in western society as a threat to sustained productivity. i.e. the work force is too small and getting smaller.
2) Assuming they are spraying something harmful, how would the culprit's ensure they are not spraying themselves or their loved ones? This seems an astoundingly unselective weapon.
3) What is the connection to 911? |
1)The Malthusians reckon they could safely dump 90% of the worlds population, and hang the consequences to 'ensure' their own survival. |
And the Malthusians are....?
Why are the Malthusians concerned about their survival? How would ridding the world of 90% of the population ensure that survival?
How would they maintain their standard of living sitting at the top of the pyramid of modern luxury and technology if they pull that pyramid out from underneath them?
I see, but that's still pretty messy and unreliable. How would they explain it to their family and friends, and at the same time retain secrecy. The point I'm getting at here is that for something of this magnitude, it would have be kept under very deep secrecy, which makes it difficult to protect one's people if it is as pervasive as is suggested here.
| Quote: | | 3)The same class of perps perhaps? |
Perhaps, but that kinda makes this forum completely open to discussions of nearly anything. There are a lot of strange things that can be blamed on the PTB.
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MiniMauve
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | Having had my earlier posts referenced a couple of times i would just like to clarify:
I do not consider the evidance for ChemTrials to be weak: it is in fact very strong, its a real phenomona and it is happening globally
To make my point clearer, there is no conclusive data as to what the trails are composed of and what their purpose is, but they most definately are not any kind of normal offshoot of jet propulsion
There is a reason there is no clear Data, and that is that there is a concrete and absolute wall around the information of the most serious kind, equivalent to the security around atomic weapons. Whatever the purpose of these trails, the populace is clearly not meant to know about it. I refer to fertility rates only becuase these are declining mysteriously: of course this may have nothing to do with Chemtrails and could be to do with chemicalised food and water instead, or other factors
Of course skeptics and critics are going to try to pick holes in the chemtrail information: its what a programmed mind does instinctively. Whatever logical fallacies are concocted to explain them away, they continue to happen, and its for the aware person to inform themselves with what can be known about the phenomona |
I'm neither for or against this theory at this point, I would just like to understand it. The questions I posted were obvious ones that immediately sprang to mind. I don't normally accept any theory unless it makes sense to me. That's why I distrust most of what comes out of the Bush administration, the 911 commission and oddball internet sites. They just don't make logical sense. Convince me there is actually something to this contrail theory.
PS To continue my role as Devil's Advocate - the reason no clear data can be found could be that there is no data to find... i.e. that it's simply pollution.
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MiniMauve
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew Johnson wrote: | | MiniMauve wrote: |
3) What is the connection to 911? |
Indirect - after 9/11 planes were grounded for 2 days. This allowed someone to measure the "clarity" of the skies without regular air traffic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_trans.shtml
This eventually lead to a discovery of "Global dimming" - in Israel, the intensity of certain wavelengths of sunlight reaching the ground had dropped by 22%.
Now, what could've caused that, then ay? Maybe a deliberate, undisclosed spraying of particulate matter, under the disguise of ordinary air traffic. |
Or pollution...
It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort cover-up involving pollution going on. As of now, it would surprise me if governments were deliberately spraying something sinister on their populations. However, I am willing to listen to any possibilities for a motive anyone here has.
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iro
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| 'governments' aren't doing anything. This is an international occurrence so if your looking for a 'who' it would have to be either the UN, NATO or both...or something completely covert |
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DeFecToR
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | Ignatz wrote: | Just one quick point -
why do they choose to lay down these chemtrails on clear still days when they'll be visible to millions of people? Taking the mickey?
or could it be that hydrocarbon fuels produce water as a by-product of combustion, and this forms into a billion ice crystals that take an age to disperse when there's no wind up there?
just wondering, like |
Here we go...
Look man, i dont care so much about the trails themselves as it is something i myself cannot prove. The nature, direction and frequency of the aircraft is what has me suspicious. Perhaps you would like to give me an explanation for how there could be three low-flying unmarked planes flying next to each other at the same heading and speed? Commercial? Passenger? Er.....no. |
For god sake. Will one of the 'critics' here please at least attempt to answer my question.
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Andrew Johnson
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| MiniMauve wrote: |
Or pollution...
It wouldn't surprise me if there was some sort cover-up involving pollution going on. As of now, it would surprise me if governments were deliberately spraying something sinister on their populations. However, I am willing to listen to any possibilities for a motive anyone here has. |
This doesn't account for enough of the evidence. We can clearly see the spraying going on perhaps at least 3 days per week. It's probably one of the most well-documented phenomena of its type.
it bears all the hallmarks of a "false flag" operation. i.e. you want to spray (for reasons unknown) - so you do it and blame the results on industrialisation and car usage. i.e. you create the problem, you then tell people they are bad for polluting and you have to tax them for their emissions (a form of global taxation perhaps). Envronmental groups - who completely ignore chemtrails - help to keep people's eyes OFF the ball.
So it's a very similar psychology to creating a fear of Muslim fundamentalism (over several years), faking a terrorist attack by them, then blaming a semi ficticious group (Al Qiada) for the attack when really "you" know they are damn well not responsible (except to be patsies).
We don't know the true motive - as has already been stated. It might be a mixture of things. But again, one can't say "well, we don't know why he shot her - so she can't be really dead." Indeed, "denial" is not just a river in Egypt.
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iro
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:44 am Post subject: |
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environmental groups just dont ignore chemtrails, they steadfastly refuse to discuss or investigate it which boggles the mind
when you look into the funding and ownership of environmental groups, especially greenpeace the reasons become a lot clearer. They are very much part of the elite established order |
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graphicequaliser
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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As a Greenpeace email newsletter receiver myself, I rang them to find out why they never report on Chemtrails. The answer I got was that nobody knows what they are, so anything they could do about them would only be based on speculation as to what they were anyway. In plain English, "we cannot tell you the reason". Jeez!
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fixuplooksharp
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: |
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yeah, i have spotted these chemtrail things for ages now, i have pointed them out to friends and they agree it is rather strange.
we have sat in a park looking up at the sky and watched the planes fly in circles and in formation, turning the 'spray' or whatever it is on/off.
very strange indeed.
the americans seem to be more informed on this, its been on the news a couple of times etc, always related to respiritory illness'.....
to be honest, i dont really know what to make of them, most of the suggestions people have put forward, as to their use i have thought about already.
i think however, it seems that aluminium and barium always seem to be included int he concoction, which is good for military radar.
i also believe there could be a correlation between the springing up of all these dodgy mobile phone masts.
did you know that the regulatory safety limit for the strength of microwaves for mobile phones is about 100x higher than any other country in the world, and about a 1000x stronger than china's.
i think there is a reason they kept telsa quiet : he stumbled on something quite amazing. |
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fixuplooksharp
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: |
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yeah, i have spotted these chemtrail things for ages now, i have pointed them out to friends and they agree it is rather strange.
we have sat in a park looking up at the sky and watched the planes fly in circles and in formation, turning the 'spray' or whatever it is on/off.
very strange indeed.
the americans seem to be more informed on this, its been on the news a couple of times etc, always related to respiritory illness'.....
to be honest, i dont really know what to make of them, most of the suggestions people have put forward, as to their use i have thought about already.
i think however, it seems that aluminium and barium always seem to be included int he concoction, which is good for military radar.
i also believe there could be a correlation between the springing up of all these dodgy mobile phone masts.
did you know that the regulatory safety limit for the strength of microwaves for mobile phones is about 100x higher than any other country in the world, and about a 1000x stronger than china's.
i think there is a reason they kept telsa quiet : he stumbled on something quite amazing.
its when you see the satellite images aswell of this * going on....on a huge scale, i could not believe it. |
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chek
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:49 am Post subject: |
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| MiniMauve wrote: | | And the Malthusians are....?. |
Believers in the theories of Malthus who essentially think that resources are limited and cannot supply an ever growing population with their needs.
http://www.faculty.rsu.edu/~felwell/Theorists/Malthus/Index.htm
or the cliff notes version:
http://whyfiles.org/096y6b/5.html
| MiniMauve wrote: | Why are the Malthusians concerned about their survival? How would ridding the world of 90% of the population ensure that survival?
How would they maintain their standard of living sitting at the top of the pyramid of modern luxury and technology if they pull that pyramid out from underneath them? . |
Very few people are actually engaged in production in the modern world. Most of us are middlemen (persons?) or leeches who wouldn't be missed, by their logic
| MiniMauve wrote: | | I see, but that's still pretty messy and unreliable. How would they explain it to their family and friends, and at the same time retain secrecy. The point I'm getting at here is that for something of this magnitude, it would have be kept under very deep secrecy, which makes it difficult to protect one's people if it is as pervasive as is suggested here. |
I suggested that as a recent example of protection for some but not others. (The Bush administration were issuing Cipro to themselves before the anthrax attacks). As we don't even know what the alleged agent is or what it's doing, use of cipro only suggests a method of selective protection
| Quote: | | 3)The same class of perps perhaps? |
| MiniMauve wrote: | | Perhaps, but that kinda makes this forum completely open to discussions of nearly anything. There are a lot of strange things that can be blamed on the PTB. |
You've noticed that on the boards too? Especially recently. |
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Andrew Johnson
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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I do find it puzzling that people like MiniMauve want to play devils advocate. If they accept the video evidence of what happened on 9/11, and some of the science which shows the official story is false, then how come they are (apparently) wanting to reject the ongoing chemtrail activity, which is based on an ever growing body of evidence from all around the world.
From video, photos and yes, folks, even satellites.....
http://www.projectprove.com/Arts/Chm1/chm1.php
(scroll down)
http://www.projectprove.com/Arts/Ch37/Ch37.php
Oh dear, not looking too good for the PTB is it? Caught with their pants down AGAIN by our access to technology...
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stav
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: well... |
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not sure if it help but i was looking at this http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-2995
and if they are willing to bring it through congress now, wats going on behind the scenes. this must show that some ppl in a high up place have had serious discussions about this type of 'new' technology.
chemtrails might have a connection to weather mod, i have noticed them in northants area for about a year, over last 3 months its got more consistent with the amout of trails, continuous spraying leaving long trails which then spread out and form a milky/cloudy layering over the sky, i've seen turn from a brilliant blue sky in the morning to a hazy white by tea time.
stav
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James C
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Johnson wrote: | | James C wrote: | | Anyway, Andrew, yet again your evidence is sketchy at best and absolute rubbish at worst. |
Of course James! Yes! I have had an article published about this (from which the paragraph was taken). It's been read by hundreds of people. I am afraid to say that you are the ONLY person to describe it as ahem "rubbish", but you are entitled to your opinion - unsupported though it by basic physics and chemistry, photographic and video evidence and witness testimony though it is. But at least you make your opinion crystal clear - and you also make it clear how you like to make your points.
I do wonder why you post here James - I really do - but you are perfectly entitled to do so. Would be nice if you could address specific points of evidence with specific scientific points of rebuttal rather than just sweeping generalisations. But, I suppose we each have our chosen styles of debate.... |
I post on here because I support the 9/11 truth movement. What I don't support is the theory that everything else is a conspiracy.
Your proof of chemtrails is non-existence. So far you have shown me jack sh@t yet love to promote how wonderful and scientific you are. Have you answered my basic question regarding ice crystal formation at high altitude? No, because as usual, you cannot. This is the reason I post, it's in reaction to you and others who make such ludicrous claims. This forum is meant to be about 9/11 and all it's possible issues. I happen to take great interest in the relationship between 9/11 and oil, something which you prefer to rubbish since you are in denial about what it actually means which reinforces your lack of knowledge about oil and and its power. You on the other hand prefer to promote the whole prison planet thing, something which I disagree with. I am not an Alex Jones fan.
I don't like you Andrew, I'll be honest. Just my opinion and I don't give a sh@t what you think. But what I won't do is stand by and let rubbish talk like this go on without criticism. I couldn't care less whether a few hundred people have read your version of jet engine combustion. More fool the people who believe you since they obviously are incapable of serious scientific analysis. By the way, global dimming has nothing to do with chemicals and everything to do with excess cloud cover, something which planes are capable of creating.
I read the post you made on a physics forum ages ago which you shared on this forum a few weeks ago. The members on that forum kicked your ass with their scientific knowledge. They might have been wrong about 9/11 and displayed the normal reactionary attitude but still they managed to make you look like a fool. Perhaps you should learn by that. Still, it gave me something to laugh at especially the bit where you almost appear to plead with them to help you better understand the laws of physics. |
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THETRUTHWILLSETU3
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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May I make a request to the moderators to get this James C off here.
He is obnoxious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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chek
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | May I make a request to the moderators to get this James C off here.
He is obnoxious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Only my opinion TTWSU3, but criticism should be faced head on rather than avoided. It does no harm and maybe even some good for all of us to be challenged about beliefs that can become all too cosy when untested. |
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Andrew Johnson
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Have you answered my basic question regarding ice crystal formation at high altitude? |
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Where is your proof that ice crystals will disappear in less than one minute? Such a statement is clearly nonsense when you consider the fact that above 20,000 feet the air is very cold, -50 to -60 degrees fahrenheit, hence the reason why Cirrus clouds, which are ice crystal formations, will form at these altitudes.
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The water which forms cirrus clouds has to be replenished – by a body of water vapour moving in from somewhere else – this page suggests several sources:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/wea00/wea00173.htm
Ordinary Cirrus clouds don't stay in 1 place forever - so something causes the ice to evaporate/sublime (presumably solar radiation)
So, if an aircraft trail were persisting for many minutes, it’s source of ice would need to be replenished by something.
On some of the video clips, you can see the Chemtrails moving across without really changing shape (apart from spreading out).
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I would suggest doing some more thorough research before making such awful statements and posting links to bad videos which are meant to provide solid evidence. |
I would make the same statement to you – you have not provided anything to rebut specific points I have made (e.g.a detailed page on contrail formation), apart from the pilots article (below) which inlcudes no pictures or video evidence and only 1 link.
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The first problem with this video is the different dates the observations were made. How can any scientific comparison be made therefore?
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I don't see that counts against it. We don't see Chemtrails EVERY day - that was pointed out more than once. If you look carefully on 2 of the video clips, so can see CONTRAILS and CHEMTRAILS in the SAME PART OF THE SKY within minutes of each other.
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You promote yourself as a scholar
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Please give me an example of this. I am listed on www.st911.org. I tutor part time for the Open Univ on T224. I develop software. I was invited to join ST911 by Jim Fetzer and Steve Jones. I asked to join as an Associate Member as I was a part time tutor. They put me on as a full member. You'd have to ask them why they did that. As far as I am aware, I have claimed nothing other than this. Indeed, if you look at the post I made on the Physics thread that you referred to, I tried to make the truth quite clear:
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=11
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and yet your approach to evidence development is always incredibly poor.
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So you keep saying. Can you give me an example of how yours is better - thanks?
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I will of course ask the same question I asked earlier, why would chemical trails look any different to contrails?
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Well, I tried to make this clear – contrail means “condensation trail” – i.e. condensation of water – or water into ice. Solar (infra-red) radiation then sublimes the ice crystals over a period of about 1-2 minutes. Chemtrails are generally white, though other colours have been reported on the odd occasion.
| Quote: |
What would make them appear white in the first place and why would they hang in the air? Perhaps this pilot's report can shine a little light on things.....?
http://www.nmsr.org/pilotsvu.htm |
I think I have seen this article before. It makes some good points, but his conclusion is:
Are “chemtrails” real?
It’s entirely possible. In concluding this lengthy dissertation, I have to admit I can’t disprove their existence. My point is simply this: proponents of the “chemtrail” theory have failed to produce a “smoking gun.” There are logical and believable explanations for all the “evidence” I have seen. No truly damning evidence seems to exist – or if it does, it’s lost in a sea of inconclusive theory, conjecture and photos of normal contrails and meteorological events.
Remember, too, this guy is a PILOT not a meterologist. Sure, he is going to know the sky pretty well etc. He doesn’t mention time lapse video evidence, nor tests done by people like Clifford Carnicom.
Slag me off all you want, but I’d take Carnicom (www.carnicom.com) more seriously – his evidence is far more comprehensive than mine.
There are lots of other people who have written about this too, so it's not just me. Scott Stevens (Idaho Weatherman - see www.weatherwars.info) - surely he'd know about the weather? William Thomas, Dr Len Horowitz etc etc
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John White
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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A Forum is a place to do the work of exploring ideas
Thats only possible if we express them: the only issue in forums is the ethical quality of that expression: Honesty, Fairness and Willingness, for example. This usually requires self-reflection skills
James C is fine by what it says in my "book"
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paul wright
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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These chemtrail threads always lead off into personal animosity
That's the way they work it
One simple question never gets a fair answer - can you show us one single chemtrail resembling our last 5 years skies from before around 1995? In my experience they can never come up with anything. Perhaps someone around here can - from National Geographic or somewhere
In my experience there is a personal interlink between the ground bound mobile phone masts/cell towers and chemtrails. In an isolated enough area you can dissipate the latter by busting the former.
Perhaps they both link into the atmospheric plasma which is the control element aimed at imprisoning us in the lower vibrational field
There is another demonstration at the Menwith Hill spy/starwars base this weekend
This is a notional node in this process
On the inevitable walkaround you see how these how this place governs the national frequency belt
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Andrew Johnson
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| James C wrote: | | I read the post you made on a physics forum ages ago which you shared on this forum a few weeks ago. The members on that forum kicked your ass with their scientific knowledge. They might have been wrong about 9/11 and displayed the normal reactionary attitude but still they managed to make you look like a fool. Perhaps you should learn by that. Still, it gave me something to laugh at especially the bit where you almost appear to plead with them to help you better understand the laws of physics. |
So, even though I was only saying what others had already said:
e.g. Prof Judy Wood's article is a much better and more comprehensive analysis than "my" simple one (that isn't mine really) - but it essentially uses freefall physics
So what I said was rubbish because it was me that said it? And all those other naysayers on the Physics thread kicked my ass? Well, there were also a fair few others who backed up and augmented what I said too. People can use the link above to make their own minds up.
Sorry James - but I really don't matter - at all. The evidence does, however.
_________________
Andrew
Ask the Tough Questions, Folks! |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| James C wrote: |
I post on here because I support FREEDOM. What I don't support is the theory that 911 is a conspiracy.
Your proof of 911 INSIDE JOB is non-existence. So far you have shown me jack sh@t yet love to promote how wonderful and scientific you are. Have you answered my basic question regarding AIRPLANE HIGHJACKINGS at high altitude? No, because as usual, you cannot. This is the reason I post, it's in reaction to you and others who make such ludicrous claims. This forum is meant to be about CUTE ANIMALS and all it's possible issues. I happen to take great interest in the relationship between BL and oil, something which you prefer to rubbish since you are in denial about what it actually means which reinforces your lack of knowledge about AL QAEDA and and its power. You on the other hand prefer to promote the whole CONTROLLED DEMOLITION THING, something which I disagree with. I am not an STEVEN Jones fan.
I don't like you Andrew, I'll be honest. Just my opinion and I don't give a sh@t what you think. But what I won't do is stand by and let rubbish talk like this go on without criticism. I couldn't care less whether a few hundred people have read your version of 911. More fool the people who believe you since they obviously are incapable of serious scientific analysis. By the way, THE TOWERS DESTRUCTION has nothing to do with BOMBS IN THE BUILDING and everything to do with THE DAMAGED STRUCTURES, something which planes are capable of creating.
I read the post you made on a physics forum ages ago which you shared on this forum a few weeks ago. The members on that forum kicked your ass with their scientific knowledge. They might have been wrong about EASTENDERS and displayed the normal reactionary attitude but still they managed to make you look like a fool. Perhaps you should learn by that. Still, it gave me something to laugh at especially the bit where you almost appear to plead with them to help you better understand the laws of physics. |
Heeeeyyyyyy, i thought this sounded familiar.....
Listen James C. You are acting like a bit of a child here. Instead of researching the issue you have attacked us. Something you may well criticize the critics of 911 for, so how about you show a little open-mindedness and restraint.
I already posted them but i doubt you checked them out. PLEASE GO AND HAVE A LOOK AT THESE SITES;
http://www.carnicom.com/
http://www.weatherwars.info/chemtrails.htm
http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/
What can it hurt?
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Jim
Moderate Poster
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 294
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| This thread is off-topic (9/11 & 7/7) and has been locked. |
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