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marky 54
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 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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bushwacker, your missing the point about snoygrouches findings along with pilots for truth.
the information was obtained through the freedom of information act, that is the data which was look at, snowycrouch does not claim it prove the plane flew over the pentagon, but he does say and has proven that is what the information he was provided with says/or implies.
he is also aware of the fact the information he was provided with may be false, but that in its self raises questions, like why is false information being released through the freedom of information act?
people have tried to get the answers but have been ignored as no one who would know is willing to comment.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=558348710883993755&q=calum+p entagon&total=5&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
so its important to realise he is only looking at data given to him through the freedom of information act(by mistake), and he and pilots for truth have looked into every possible error and have still come to the conclusion the data shows the plane in the wrong postion to pull of the hit 2 seconds before impact. or the information given has been faked or tampered with.
either scenerio raises questions. |
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pepik
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but he does say and has proven that is what the information he was provided with says/or implies. |
No, he has shown that his interpretation of the data says this. That does not mean the FDR says this. The FDR records data which can be interpreted, if you interpret it wrong you get the wrong answer. | Quote: | | he is also aware of the fact the information he was provided with may be false, but that in its self raises questions, like why is false information being released through the freedom of information act? |
That's just silly, even if the data showed it did hit the Pentagon that would "raise questions" about how the FDR survived and how come some people saw a cruise missile and where's the wreckage and [continue infinite repetition of debunked Pentagon conspiracy questions]. | Quote: | | people have tried to get the answers but have been ignored as no one who would know is willing to comment. |
"People" have tried have they? They tried to get answers but they couldn't because nobody would comment? Nonsense. This has been discussed to death at JREF.
http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/flight-data-recorder/
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marky 54
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| pepik wrote: | | Quote: | | but he does say and has proven that is what the information he was provided with says/or implies. |
No, he has shown that his interpretation of the data says this. That does not mean the FDR says this. The FDR records data which can be interpreted, if you interpret it wrong you get the wrong answer. | Quote: | | he is also aware of the fact the information he was provided with may be false, but that in its self raises questions, like why is false information being released through the freedom of information act? |
That's just silly, even if the data showed it did hit the Pentagon that would "raise questions" about how the FDR survived and how come some people saw a cruise missile and where's the wreckage and [continue infinite repetition of debunked Pentagon conspiracy questions]. | Quote: | | people have tried to get the answers but have been ignored as no one who would know is willing to comment. |
"People" have tried have they? They tried to get answers but they couldn't because nobody would comment? Nonsense. This has been discussed to death at JREF.
http://forums.randi.org/tags/index.php/flight-data-recorder/ |
no it does not raise questions about the pentagon if the information was faked. simply because the data would not be a record of what actually happened, therefore it would only raise questions about why release false data. as a record could or does exsist of the actual data its just that no one would of seen it(other than those who are allowed), and that data could match up with the offical version for all we know.
the data has been looked at and all possible errors in calculations checked and checked again. it is an interprataion of the data recieved through FOIA.
no offense but linking me to the jref forum is no differant to me linking you to here and expecting you to believe what is said, thats not to say any of their information is wrong but i certainly do not trust they are entirely honest about their findings and data(i expect you think the same when here).
any third party evidence ie anything not linked to truthers or jref'ers to the contray is welcome by myself and i will certainly listen and look at what is said.
or their information put into a documentary simular to snowys also, i admit im no expert when it comes to the complexity of flight recorders and something easier to understand and that is explained inorder to help people understand and take them through each stage would help those who don't have all the knowledge about how these things work and why you think snowy is wrong.
i found snowys talks easy to follow and to understand, i would not of understood the data if it was just written down or what it pointed to.
ill do a google search for such things but im not sure they exsist. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | A 7/7 enquiry is worthwhile to find out why intelligence failed to identify these men in time, despite them coming to some attention, what can be done to identify others who have travelled to Pakistan for training, and what drove them to commit these despicable crimes. It is certainly not necessary to establish who committed the crimes, not would it convince the troofers who would of course simply say the conclusions were covering up official involvement. Any conspiracy theory will be expanded indefinitely to cover the flaws in it. |
That would seem to most reasonably minded folk, a valid basis for asking for a new enquiry Bushy.
Would it be ok with you if others had other reasons, perhaps different or additional to yours for asking for an enquiry into the 7/7 outrage ?
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Bushwacker
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Joined: 07 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | A 7/7 enquiry is worthwhile to find out why intelligence failed to identify these men in time, despite them coming to some attention, what can be done to identify others who have travelled to Pakistan for training, and what drove them to commit these despicable crimes. It is certainly not necessary to establish who committed the crimes, not would it convince the troofers who would of course simply say the conclusions were covering up official involvement. Any conspiracy theory will be expanded indefinitely to cover the flaws in it. |
That would seem to most reasonably minded folk, a valid basis for asking for a new enquiry Bushy.
Would it be ok with you if others had other reasons, perhaps different or additional to yours for asking for an enquiry into the 7/7 outrage ? |
I really do not think anyone else needs my permission to ask for an enquiry for whatever reason they choose. |
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Long Tooth
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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bushwacker.
LOL, yes thats it, diesel fuel in pipes, and the building burned for a full 7 hours you diatribe.
produce one photo of the fire raging, we have seen a couple of rooms burning in WTC7.
oh theres a power station underneath, lol, yes just look at the explosions. you are hilarious, nearly 6 years and NIST or is that PIST are still investigating. |
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Long Tooth wrote: | bushwacker.
LOL, yes thats it, diesel fuel in pipes, and the building burned for a full 7 hours you diatribe.
produce one photo of the fire raging, we have seen a couple of rooms burning in WTC7.
oh theres a power station underneath, lol, yes just look at the explosions. you are hilarious, nearly 6 years and NIST or is that PIST are still investigating. |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
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Long Tooth
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Joined: 06 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | Long Tooth wrote: | bushwacker.
LOL, yes thats it, diesel fuel in pipes, and the building burned for a full 7 hours you diatribe.
produce one photo of the fire raging, we have seen a couple of rooms burning in WTC7.
oh theres a power station underneath, lol, yes just look at the explosions. you are hilarious, nearly 6 years and NIST or is that PIST are still investigating. |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
LOL, you call that a sufficient fire to cause the building to fall at freefall speed into its own footprint? thats as believable as De Menezes hurdling barriers in his thick overcoat with wires protruding, and Saddams WMD's are coming our way in 45 minutes. 
you dont have your head stuck in the sand, your head is firmly wedged so far up your own arse its irreversably stuck. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: |
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There is an obvious contradiction in your position with regard to enquiries into 7/7 and 9/11 though Bushy.
You are in support of an enquiry into 7/7 on the basis of the intelligence services links to the alleged 7/7 patsies.
Yet with regard to 9/11 you do not support an enquiry even though there is a mountain of evidence linking the alleged 9/11 patsies to the US and Pakistani intelligence services.
Surely you can see the inconsistency in this position ?
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Long Tooth
Moderate Poster
Joined: 06 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | There is an obvious contradiction in your position with regard to enquiries into 7/7 and 9/11 though Bushy.
You are in support of an enquiry into 7/7 on the basis of the intelligence services links to the alleged 7/7 patsies.
Yet with regard to 9/11 you do not support an enquiry even though there is a mountain of evidence linking the alleged 9/11 patsies to the US and Pakistani intelligence services.
Surely you can see the inconsistency in this position ? |
He cannot see anything, his head is wedged where the sun dont shine. |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
So how do you explain this picture?
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Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | There is an obvious contradiction in your position with regard to enquiries into 7/7 and 9/11 though Bushy.
You are in support of an enquiry into 7/7 on the basis of the intelligence services links to the alleged 7/7 patsies.
Yet with regard to 9/11 you do not support an enquiry even though there is a mountain of evidence linking the alleged 9/11 patsies to the US and Pakistani intelligence services.
Surely you can see the inconsistency in this position ? |
No, that is not at all what I said about a 7/7 enquiry. As ever, truth is regarded with utter contempt by you cultists. Why you even bother pretending you are doing anything than making up your own fantasies beats me. |
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Bushwacker
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Joined: 07 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
So how do you explain this picture? |
It appears to be the North Tower surrounded by the dust clouds of the collapsed South Tower, but what seems very odd is the light shining through the dust clouds on the right, as though there was a huge fire behind. Can you explain that? |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | scubadiver wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
So how do you explain this picture? |
It appears to be the North Tower surrounded by the dust clouds of the collapsed South Tower, but what seems very odd is the light shining through the dust clouds on the right, as though there was a huge fire behind. Can you explain that? |
That response says it all to me...
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Bushy you did say that you would support an enquiry because the alleged perps were know to MI5 previously did you not ?
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Bushwacker
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Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Long Tooth wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | Long Tooth wrote: | bushwacker.
LOL, yes thats it, diesel fuel in pipes, and the building burned for a full 7 hours you diatribe.
produce one photo of the fire raging, we have seen a couple of rooms burning in WTC7.
oh theres a power station underneath, lol, yes just look at the explosions. you are hilarious, nearly 6 years and NIST or is that PIST are still investigating. |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
LOL, you call that a sufficient fire to cause the building to fall at freefall speed into its own footprint? thats as believable as De Menezes hurdling barriers in his thick overcoat with wires protruding, and Saddams WMD's are coming our way in 45 minutes.
you dont have your head stuck in the sand, your head is firmly wedged so far up your own arse its irreversably stuck. |
I thought you believed what firemen said? They say it was burning on nearly all floors, so why do you not believe them?
Here is a selection of their comments about the fires:
1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert LaRocca
2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn
3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti
4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes
5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.
–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)
6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer
7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly.
8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa |
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Bushwacker
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Joined: 07 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | scubadiver wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
So how do you explain this picture? |
It appears to be the North Tower surrounded by the dust clouds of the collapsed South Tower, but what seems very odd is the light shining through the dust clouds on the right, as though there was a huge fire behind. Can you explain that? |
That response says it all to me... |
Really? So what do you think the picture shows? |
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Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | | Bushy you did say that you would support an enquiry because the alleged perps were know to MI5 previously did you not ? |
Why not see what I actually said for your self? |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | A 7/7 enquiry is worthwhile to find out why intelligence failed to identify these men in time, despite them coming to some attention . . . |
When I used the phrase linked to intelligence previously this is what I meant.
So, you are happy to see an enquiry into 7/7 partly for the above reason.
Yet why are you not happy to see an enquiry into 9/11 for exactly the same reason ?
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | A 7/7 enquiry is worthwhile to find out why intelligence failed to identify these men in time, despite them coming to some attention . . . |
When I used the phrase linked to intelligence previously this is what I meant.
So, you are happy to see an enquiry into 7/7 partly for the above reason.
Yet why are you not happy to see an enquiry into 9/11 for exactly the same reason ? |
Because the 9/11 Commission has already done so, identified where intelligence failed and made appropriate recommendations. I would not be unhappy to see another enquiry, contrary to what you say, but what would be the point? The important thing is whether intelligence is adequate now, not how it failed six years ago. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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But, if you accept that the 9/11 Commission's Report dealt fully with intelligence failures, how do you explain the fact that it's findings contradict what Bush had said about the attacks ?
Surely, that one point alone would be grounds for a full enquiry ?
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Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | But, if you accept that the 9/11 Commission's Report dealt fully with intelligence failures, how do you explain the fact that it's findings contradict what Bush had said about the attacks ?
Surely, that one point alone would be grounds for a full enquiry ? |
What on earth for? Bush is an idiot, if you had an enquiry every time he got something wrong you would have a full time job on your hands. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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So the fact that either the Commission got it's facts wrong, which you do evidently not accept, or Bush lied doesn't bother you ?
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | | So the fact that either the Commission got it's facts wrong, which you do evidently not accept, or Bush lied doesn't bother you ? |
You are asking for an enquiry to determine why a politician lied are you? Good luck with that one! |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting dichotomy you have to deal with Bushy.
I sympathise, to an extent, but it's your own fault really for having such a closed mind.
Only you can make sense of believing the veracity of one source, in this instance the 9/11 Commission Report, whilst disregarding the consequential lies that it suggests the President made about 9/11.
Also, the 9/11 Commission was exclusively comprised of politicians Bushy, as I'm sure you know, so, how you can distinguish so virulently that one body of politicians is telling the truth whilst dismissing the notion that politicians are liars as being insignificant is a fascinating conundrum for you.
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I am sorry for you being unable to distinguish the differences. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Au contraire Bushy.
I do not see any difference between one potentially lying bunch of politicians and another.
You, evidently cannot see that there is no difference.
You do not support a new 9/11 enquiry because you think the 9/11 Commission's Report is adequate.
This was a Commission comprised of politicians.
Politicians, about whom you are, understandably, ready to admit, we should not be surprised to discover, frequently lie.
You use this as a basis for dismissing my suggestion that because the 9/11 Commission, by implication, suggests that Bush lied about 9/11, we need a new enquiry.
Yet you are clearly willing to use the report of a group of politicians as a basis for not requiring a new enquiry.
The two positions Bushy, are inconsistent.
The two positions can only be held by someone who hasn't thought things through properly.
Your position could be paraphrased thus:
I believe the 9/11 Commission's Report, even though I know it was comprised by a group of politicians. I know that politicians lie regularly and see no reason to have a new enquiry, because I accept the report written by a group of politicians.
Fascinating.
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| That is of course total rubbish. I doubt you even believe it yourself, although of course a troofer will believe anything convenient at the time. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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What is total rubbish Bushy ?
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scubadiver
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | scubadiver wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | scubadiver wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: |
You have your head stuck so firmly in the sand you see nothing at all.
Here is a picture of WTC7 with smoke coming from many floors. It was so well ablaze that the firefighters abandoned it, but of course it suits the Truthshirkers to pretend it was just a couple of rooms burning. |
So how do you explain this picture? |
It appears to be the North Tower surrounded by the dust clouds of the collapsed South Tower, but what seems very odd is the light shining through the dust clouds on the right, as though there was a huge fire behind. Can you explain that? |
That response says it all to me... |
Really? So what do you think the picture shows? |
It shows that, somewhere in your imagination, you create a "fireball" in order to completely ignore the dust clouds up one side of the tower which we know 100% had no fires. Yet you are proclaiming quite the opposite for WTC7. In neither instance do we see raging fires.
I am amazed I had to spell it out and that you are getting so desperate!
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