| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Prole
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 632
Location: London UK
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| astro3 wrote: | Now I’m really confused. Numeral (on November 5 th) is asking us to accept a survivor Mr Joe Orr’s testimony that:
| Quote: | 10am: Today is my weekly visit to Newham College in Stratford, East London, where I'm studying for a diploma - so leave the car at work and get on the Piccadilly Line to Holborn.
8.15am: Tube arrives. Arnos Grove is one of the first stops on the Piccadilly so I always get a seat.
8.22am: End up waiting for several minutes at each Tube stop as there has been a fire alert at Caledonian Road. Our train is packed because of the delays holding people up.
8.50am: Finally get into King's Cross where the platform is heaving. Only a few more people can fit into our carriage. |
- So the line was not closed, after all! A Tube full of people was traveling through! This takes us right back to Rachel’s position, where several packed-out tube trains arrived soon after the fire-alert closure was lifted.
We need an Enquiry, to try and resolve what was happening, over the 9 Piccadilly line stations Arnos Grove to Caledonian Road that morning, 8-8.30 . Was there really a fire? Were stations closed, or not?
Staraker has suggested that more than one train could have been waiting but not moving in any of those stations: ‘In the event of line closures, it's not unusual for trains to move to the next station for evacuation, and hold there until the line reopens’ – in which case, the trains turning up for Rachel after the line reopened would have had to be empty, as Stelios has argued, not full.
If there really had been a fire hazard alert over those stations, then surely (a) no train would be rumbling slowly Southbound through the stations, and (b) any train held immobile at one of those stations during the fire alert, would have been emptied out of people. They would not be waiting on the platform but would have been sent out of the station. Otherwise the fire-alert just has to be just theatrical. |
We know from bus driver Paul Brandon that buses were instructed to honour train tickets after the closure of the line. (Can't find the post on the J7 forum at present)
This is interesting, from the Antagonist's blog, 5/08/05:
| Quote: | From a Picadilly Line survivor account (links below):
"I was on the Piccadilly Line-the first after there was a fire alarm at Caledonian Road. Just after Kings X there was a "bang" coming from the front carriage-the light went out and emergency lighting came on-smoke came apparently from outside-There were no announcement-some people started panicking after a while and tried to smash the doors-but only to injure themselves- after about 30min 2 policemen opened the back door and let people out. I wonder why it took so long-the smoke settled down after a while and I assume it was only dust spelled around by the sudden tube break-we were only maybe 100m away from the platform. But when you're inside you don't realise that. I guess no one was seriously injured on that train-but I haven't seen what happened to the people at the front carriage- They should have passed information that there is no fire etc. the atmosphere in a packed tube carriage is already frightening enough."
Harald Schoenbrodt,
London
Sources:
1. Harald's original submission to the BBC (now only available in a cache version)
2. An edited version which omits the fire alarm at Caledonian Road from Harald's report. |
_________________
'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
numeral
Validated Poster
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 500
Location: South London
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
astro3 wrote: | Quote: | | - So the line was not closed, after all! |
The passenger service was suspended. Consider the possibility that some empty westbound trains ran through Caledonian Road. Worth an FOI request to TfL.
_________________
Follow the numbers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Prole
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 632
Location: London UK
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| numeral wrote: | astro3 wrote: | Quote: | | - So the line was not closed, after all! |
The passenger service was suspended. Consider the possibility that some empty westbound trains ran through Caledonian Road. Worth an FOI request to TfL. |
George's testimony to the GLA p127 could also be describing the first train to accept passengers after the incident at Caledoinian Road (on p135 he says "I got on the train round about 08.30 that morning"):
| Quote: | George: Yes. I got on at Turnpike Lane, Piccadilly Line. I originally went down the stairs to get on the train. I thought, ‘That’s all I want.’ There must have been, I don’t know, 100 people there. They had stopped people going through the barriers. I thought I would go back upstairs; there is a little café around the corner, and I will get a cup of tea. I went back upstairs. In 15 years, I have never done this: I got to the top of the stairs, and for some unknown reason, I turned around, I went back down the stairs, and they let me through. I said to myself, ‘There you go. They let you through.’
Richard Barnes (Chair): This is because of overcrowding?
George: Yes, that and apparently, as I have now found out, it was delayed. There had been a number of delays – signal problems, the usual. I thought, ‘Okay, we got through.’ The train came in. We all got on it. I wouldn’t say it was packed, but there were a good few people on it, and I was standing. I got on the first carriage, the second set of double doors on the platform side. |
Despite being by the second set of double doors on carriage one and only a metre away from where he says 'Jermaine Lindsay was standing' George had no idea that a bomb had exploded on the train.
_________________
'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
karlos
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2516
Location: london
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
"We were like sardines in there, just waiting to die," said barrister Angelino Power, catapulted out of his train seat when a bomb exploded.
http://www.expressindia.com/news/print.php?newsid=50259
is Mr Archangelo Carlo Power
Farringdon Chambers
180 Bermondsey Street
London
SE1 3TQ
Telephone:020 7089 5700
Email: angelopower@farringdon-law.co.uk
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article297658.ece
Lorenzo Pia, 34, was on his way to work at the nearby Institute of Cognitive Science when he came across the carnage seconds after the blast. He joined other people trying to help the victims.
"Some of them were dead," he said. "The police were placing white sheets over them."
http://www.psych.unito.it/csc/pers/pia/pia.html
he reckons they were placing sheets ONE MINUTE after the blast
This lady appears to be a lecturer at UCL
http://www.psychol.ucl.ac.uk/research/DevelopmentalGroup.htm
Stephanie Riak Akuei, 44, witnessed the bus bomb at Tavistock Square: "I heard the noise of the bomb and went over to help. There were at least seven people who were obviously dead.
"I was joined by doctors from the British Medical Association building and later on by paramedics. We treated about nine people but I don't know if they survived. At first there was an eerie quiet.
"One man we extracted from the bus began screaming and screaming. Another man was only visible by his head. When we pulled him out the bones of his legs were in pieces and the flesh was torn out.
"Some people who might not survive were calling out. We were trying to soothe as many as we could by saying, 'At least you are alive.'
"I just keep thinking of whether the others made it."
_________________
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
astro3
Suspended
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 274
Location: North West London
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is only one possibility left, we’ve exhausted all the others. No-one has produced across any scrap of evidence for a real fire. Let's start with Stelios' observation (10 Oct): | Quote: | | this train was a through train from Cockfosters meaning the bomb could have been placed at the Cockfosters depot. The purpose of the station closures and the fire alert would be to REDUCE the number of passengers on the train….That they opened the line from Arnos Grove to Kings Cross for a few minutes AFTER 08.30 and then closed it again after the bomb at 08.52. |
So the southbound Piccadilly line was opened for a brief 22 minutes. Joe Orr told of how got on at Arnos Grove at 08.15, while ‘Kirsty’ got on at Manor House, and Angela got on at ‘Oakwood’ (we are only given first names from London Resilience hearings) all travelling down on the Picadilly line, so there could not have been any problem with through trains.
The ever-sceprtical Staraker avers: ‘This, of course, is where the "bombs pre-planted on trains" theory falls down, as day-to-day running of the Underground clearly suggests that it would be virtually impossible to plant devices on specific trains and be sure that they would be in the right place’
I suggested au contraire (Oct 16) that : | Quote: | | The suspension of nine Piccadilly line stations immediately preceding King’s Cross over the key half-hour, prior to fated train going through, was assuredly a prepared event. It was part of the Plan and no coincidence…The swiftly-arriving fire engines outside Caledonian Road station were pure theatre. Eight stops away, the notice went up at Arnos Grove about ‘due to fire’ – there was no real fire, was there? |
I suggest that my proposal is the only one which fits the facts. The closure was primarily a time-adjustment so that a fated, doomed train would pass King’s Cross at the correct time for the constructed story. Rachel’s loud silence on this thread indicates I suggest that it is dawning upon her that several full trains arriving at K’s X is wholly incompatible with any normal fire-hazard procedures over the 9 preceding stations 08.00-08.30. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
numeral
Validated Poster
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 500
Location: South London
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| astro3 wrote: | There is only one possibility left, we’ve exhausted all the others. No-one has produced across any scrap of evidence for a real fire. Let's start with Stelios' observation (10 Oct): | Quote: | | this train was a through train from Cockfosters meaning the bomb could have been placed at the Cockfosters depot. The purpose of the station closures and the fire alert would be to REDUCE the number of passengers on the train….That they opened the line from Arnos Grove to Kings Cross for a few minutes AFTER 08.30 and then closed it again after the bomb at 08.52. |
So the southbound Piccadilly line was opened for a brief 22 minutes. Joe Orr told of how got on at Arnos Grove at 08.15, while ‘Kirsty’ got on at Manor House, and Angela got on at ‘Oakwood’ (we are only given first names from London Resilience hearings) all travelling down on the Picadilly line, so there could not have been any problem with through trains.
The ever-sceprtical Staraker avers: ‘This, of course, is where the "bombs pre-planted on trains" theory falls down, as day-to-day running of the Underground clearly suggests that it would be virtually impossible to plant devices on specific trains and be sure that they would be in the right place’
I suggested au contraire (Oct 16) that : | Quote: | | The suspension of nine Piccadilly line stations immediately preceding King’s Cross over the key half-hour, prior to fated train going through, was assuredly a prepared event. It was part of the Plan and no coincidence…The swiftly-arriving fire engines outside Caledonian Road station were pure theatre. Eight stops away, the notice went up at Arnos Grove about ‘due to fire’ – there was no real fire, was there? |
I suggest that my proposal is the only one which fits the facts. The closure was primarily a time-adjustment so that a fated, doomed train would pass King’s Cross at the correct time for the constructed story. Rachel’s loud silence on this thread indicates I suggest that it is dawning upon her that several full trains arriving at K’s X is wholly incompatible with any normal fire-hazard procedures over the 9 preceding stations 08.00-08.30. |
astro3,
Have you taken into account the fact that the affected train at Caledonian Road was eastbound? The westbound service could have resumed earlier than 08:28, possibly when decision to isolate the traction motors and brakes on the rear 3 cars of E270 was taken. Doing this would take some time and the eastbound service could not resume until E270 started moving.
How do know that a "fated, doomed train" was meant to explode just past King's Cross?
_________________
Follow the numbers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
astro3
Suspended
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 274
Location: North West London
|
| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I guess this discussion has gone about as far as it can, without someone being able to ask Ian Nairn, 'Did the train you were driving that morning have to wait at Arnos Grove until the fire-alert alarm was lifted, or not?'
The official statement was, to remind Numeral, 'Piccadilly line services were suspended between King's Cross and Arnos Grove until 08.28am.' He seems to be arguing that this really meant 'Eastbound Piccadilly line services were suspended...' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Chat
Usergroups
Calendar
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
