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fish5133
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 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: Darlings Missing CDs |
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Just a stupid question from a non computer geek
Can you fit 25 million peoples data onto just 2 cds/dvds ?
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Depends on lots of things.
Remember that it is claimed that the lost details contain information on 25,000,000 people but 7,000,000 families.
The size of each data record.
How much data is stored per record. Whether it is compressed in any way.
The format of the data.
Whether it is plain text or in database form.
I'd say on very basic calcs that for standard 700Mb CD's you would have:
2 x 700Mb = 1400 Mb
1400Mb = 1400 x 1024 x 1024 = 1468006400 available storage
If it were 25,000,000 records this would only allow:
1468006400 / 25000000 = 58 characters per record.
C'est impossible !
If it were 7,000,000 family records this would only allow:
1468006400 / 7000000 = 209 characters per record.
Still not anywhere near enough.
If the data was compressed plain text then you could achieve say 10 times this amount = 580 characters per record, for 25,000,000 records which I'd wager is a little on the low side or 2090 characters if it were just 7,000,000 records - quite possible.
2 x DVD's = no problem at all even for a database and indexes containing 25,000,000 records (again depending on the record size)
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Alistair Darling wrote: | | The missing information contains details of all child benefit recipients: records for 25 million individuals and 7.25 million families. These records include the recipient and their children's names, addresses and dates of birth, it includes Child Benefit numbers, National Insurance Numbers, and, where relevant, bank or building society account details. |
Very unlikely that this could be stored on 2 CD's imo.
Darling's statement to the house.
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/newsroom_and_speeches/speeches/statement /speech_statement_201107.cfm
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uselesseater
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Just heard that some conservative spokesperson has claimed to have seen documents proving that the release of the disks was sanctioned from higher up.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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I've worked in IT for a long time.
I have no idea what sort of systems are in place at HMRC.
I am absolutely stunned that a junior member of staff is allowed access to the crown jewels as it were.
Ask any IT professional and you will find that this free, unfettered access is not normally permitted.
Even for those with access rights to sensitive databases, it should never be the case that they have access to the entire database.
Normally this would only be possible to do with privileged access rights, probably by a senior grade, probably a Database Administrator.
The second issue is also quite difficult to believe. That being, write access to removable storage media. CD's etc.
Not only are such devices high risk in terms or virus and malware infection, but to be able to write confidential data to them, on demand, is extremely rare.
To have the two together is beyond belief.
To have done it three times is literally unbelievable.
nonsense-Gemini replaced EDS at the merged HMRC.
We don't even know if this "junior" was an employee or contractor do we?
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: |
We don't even know if this "junior" was an employee or contractor do we? |
And we don't even know if it's not just a scam to persuade the public they'd be better protected with ID cards
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed not.
Darling was on BBC Breakfast attempting to use that very argument.
In answer to a question about the implications for the security of the National Identity Register he responded on the contrary, with ID cards the risk would be lower.
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GazeboflossUK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well, surprisingly I've even heard the media point out that this isn't going to help case put forward for the introduction of ID Cards......simply because DNA, Retina Scans and Finger Prints are far more personal and need to be SUPER secure.
And people can't/won't trust these loonies in Westminster.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Government challenges data claims
Conservative claims that senior officials were involved in the loss of 25 million child benefit records have been challenged by the Treasury.
The government has insisted the security breach followed a junior member of staff breaking the rules.
The loss of the HM Revenue and Customs computer discs may have put members of the public at risk of identity fraud.
The Treasury said aspects of the Conservatives' account of events were factually inaccurate.
It is understood that one worker, a 23-year-old man, has resigned over the disappearance of the two data CDs.
See sequence of events in the lost CDs scandal
The Conservative head of the Public Accounts Committee, Edward Leigh, claims senior Revenue and Customs officials approved the release of detailed information to the National Audit Office (NAO).
He said the NAO wanted only limited child benefit records but was told in an e-mail from a senior business manager in March that to remove more sensitive information was too costly and complex.
That e-mail was apparently copied to an assistant director of the department.
HAVE YOUR SAY
The result was that full details were sent to the audit office at that time, and again in October when they were lost in internal post.
The Treasury has challenged aspects of the account but refuses to elaborate.
'Systemic failure'
Shadow chancellor George Osborne said Prime Minister Gordon Brown's account of what happened had been undermined.
"This was systemic failure, not individual error by a junior official," he said.
MISSING DATA INCLUDES
Part of child benefit form
National insurance number
Name, address and birth date
Partner's details
Names, sex and age of children
Bank/savings account details
"Gordon Brown needs to tell us the whole truth of why the security of all families in the country has been put at risk."
During a heated prime minister's questions session, Mr Brown told MPs: "I profoundly regret and apologise for the inconvenience and worries that have been caused to millions of families who receive child benefits.
"When mistakes happen in enforcing procedures, we have a duty to do everything we can to protect the public."
He said he had ordered a review by the Cabinet Secretary of data safety in government and would give Information Commissioner Richard Thomas the power to spot check departments to ensure data was safe.
Conservative leader David Cameron said people would "be angry that the government has failed in its first duty to protect the public".
Mr Cameron said people were "desperately worried" and they would "find it frankly weird" that Mr Brown still wanted to go ahead with plans for a national ID cards scheme and register.
Two Labour backbench MPs - Karen Buck and Andy Love - said the government should "pause" and "stand back" from the planned project.
Bank details
The entire child benefit database was sent via internal mail from HMRC in Washington, Tyne and Wear, to the NAO in London via courier TNT on 18 October.
The data on the two missing discs includes names, dates of birth, bank and address details.
CHILD BENEFIT HOAXES
Hours after the blunder emerged, a website claimed to be offering the missing data for download
Fullreleases.com, a site registered in Arizona, lists several files entitled "child benefit", but users must pay $29.95 plus tax to join before they can view them
However, once money is paid the files cannot be accessed and the site appears to be a scam
The HMRC said people should take care with any transaction on the internet and anyone concerned about their data should call the helpline
'Our data was put at risk'
Chancellor Alistair Darling said the civil servant had broken the rules by downloading the data to disc and sending it by unrecorded delivery.
Mr Leigh said that a copy he had been given of a briefing note, written by NAO head Sir John Bourn for the chancellor, suggested that senior HMRC officials authorised the release of the sensitive information.
Bosses at the Revenue were not told about the loss of the discs until 8 November, and Mr Darling and Mr Brown learned about the situation on 10 November.
The officials involved waited before informing their superiors in the hope that the discs would be found.
The Metropolitan Police is leading the search for the discs, and the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which oversees the HMRC, is investigating the security breach.
# Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs has set up a Child Benefit Helpline on 0845 302 1444 for customers who want more details. |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7106826.stm
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Senior officials knew data was to be sent to auditors, MPs told
· Assistant director was told of information release to NAO
· Doubt cast on claim by Brown of conflicting accounts
Will Woodward, chief political correspondent
Thursday November 22, 2007
The Guardian
More details emerged yesterday of the sequence of events which led to the personal details of 25 million people being lost in the post.
Though the government has claimed that the catastrophic security breach was the product of an individual error by a junior civil servant, new evidence suggests senior Revenue & Customs officials were aware that data including addresses and bank account details of 7.5 million families was to be provided to the National Audit Office.
MPs were told yesterday that a senior official at Revenue & Customs knew that civil servants were to send sensitive data to the NAO. Sir John Bourn, the outgoing comptroller and auditor general, told a secret session of the public accounts committee that a senior business manager at Revenue & Customs had authorised the information to be released in its full form. His email approving the sharing of the data was copied to an assistant director.
Neither official's identity has been officially confirmed but the Guardian understands that the assistant director named by Sir John to MPs is Nigel Jordan.
Revenue & Customs would not confirm or deny the claim last night. "We are not commenting on the details of the process that went on," said a spokeswoman. "This is all part of the police investigation."
But Revenue & Customs yesterday denied it was at odds with the NAO over its version of events, contradicting claims by Gordon Brown at prime minister's question time yesterday. The NAO said yesterday it specifically stated that it did not need all the information being offered by Revenue & Customs. It asked for all child benefit numbers, national insurance numbers and names but did not want bank accounts and addresses and dates of birth. According to Bourn, Revenue & Customs told the NAO that removing the extra information would be too costly.
The involvement of senior officials colours and in part contradicts statements made by the chancellor, Alistair Darling, that the problem was created by an unnamed junior official in the child benefit offices in Washington, Tyne and Wear, sending two CDs containing all 25m names in the internal mail. "The fact remains that my understanding is that senior management of HMRC were not told of this until November 8," Darling told the Commons on Tuesday.
Further evidence of a systematic problem with security was revealed to the Guardian yesterday.
Shawn Williams, a partner in a law firm specialising in fraud cases, said he regularly received confidential data from Revenue & Customs in CDs with either no password or the password written on the disc itself.
While it was common in other cases for passwords to be provided by phone only once the data had been sent, Williams had never known Revenue & Customs to carry out this procedure. He said the data was often "substantial" and arrived on a regular basis.
"Any person of ill-intent coming into possession of that material has the opportunity to access that material without going through an elementary password procedure," he said. "If there was not even that level of protection then the problem is even bigger than it appears to be. It is our strongest suspicion that the discs forwarded to the National Audit Office will have been packaged together with the necessary instructions to enable the recipient to access the data.
"If so, then reassurances from the chancellor of the exchequer and chief secretary to the Treasury that the data has password or other encryption protection become meaningless."
Darling told MPs that the discs sent from Revenue & Customs to the NAO were password-encrypted.
Edward Leigh, chairman of the public accounts committee, said last night he would ask the prime minister to clarify his claim that the NAO and Revenue & Customs had different versions of the events surrounding the loss of the discs.
In the Commons yesterday Brown told Leigh: "There is a dispute about what the NAO and HMRC said to each other about this particular data." But Leigh, a former Tory minister, said: "There is no dispute between the NAO and the HMRC and I don't understand what the prime minister was saying in the answer to me today."
Leigh and Vince Cable, the acting Liberal Democrat leader, said yesterday they believed the government had created the conditions for the fiasco by combining the 2005 merger of Revenue & Customs with additional responsibilities for child benefit, and job cuts of 10,000 in 2004-07.
Cable said the prime minister and former chancellor, "who has been responsible for the department for 10 years," was at fault.
Ross Anderson, professor of security engineering at Cambridge University, said yesterday: "The government's been trying to portray this as a bungle by a junior member of staff, but it's far more than that. The mere fact that a kid could print out all this information and put it on to a CD shows that these systems are a million miles away from where they should be." |
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/economics/story/0,,2215025,00.html
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | From The Times
November 22, 2007
Police step in as staff reveal other CDs have gone astray
A ‘calamitous breakdown in communication’ at Revenue & Customs has left thousands more people exposed to risk of identity fraud
Rajeev Syal, Francis Elliott and Andrew Norfolk
At least two more CDs that could leave thousands of people open to identity fraud have been reported missing by staff at HM Revenue & Customs this week, The Times has been told.
Police have started an investigation into the loss of the unencrypted files, which went missing in transit from tax offices in Washington, Tyne & Wear, and contain “sensitive information” including national insurance numbers and dates of birth. They were sent to offices in London and are yet to be accounted for.
The loss of these files are in addition to a series of recent blunders by HMRC, including the announcement this month that a CD-Rom that contained information on 15,000 Standard Life customers had been lost.
The latest disclosure will increase the pressure on Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, who faced calls yesterday for his resignation over the loss of details of 25 million Britons from the Washington office of HMRC.
Related Links
* Thousands change PIN codes over fraud fears
* Brace yourselves for new wave of e-mail scams
* Q&A: how can I protect myself?
The police investigation may be expanded as detectives search for at least four missing CDs. Each would be considered a treasure trove of information by fraudsters. A source said: “There has been a calamitous breakdown in communication that has meant that files were being sent from the Revenue offices without proper authorisation. Staff are only now realising the seriousness of the situation and admitting to handling or sending out unencrypted files. The police are aware of these.”
The allegations of newly missing files were made by members of staff at the tax centre, some of whom appeared to be unaware of the rules governing data protection. They told officers that the files were sent to offices in Central London and have not been accounted for. The files do not, unlike the two CDs lost in transit to the National Audit Office in London, include bank account details. However, the information could be used by fraudsters to apply for credit.
Officers were last night continuing their search at the HMRC’s three-storey offices in Washington for the CDs that were destined for the National Audit Office. Detectives are understood to be satisfied that the missing package never arrived at its intended destination. Officers were seen by staff peering down radiator grilles, looking under desks and sifting through stacks of unopened post in the hope of finding the missing CDs in an envelope.
Meanwhile, detectives are trying to piece together exactly what happened on October 18, when the CDs were posted. The Metropolitan Police Specialist Crime Directorate is conducting the investigation under the charge of Acting Assistant Commissioner Janet Williams.
There was no sign yesterday of the junior official at the child benefit office who has been blamed for the blunders that led to the information going astray. An HMRC spokeswoman would not confirm that he had been suspended but said that he would face disciplinary proceedings that could lead to his dismissal.
Further questions about the standards of data protection at HMRC were raised yesterday by a solicitor who works routinely with the prosecution arm of the HMRC. Shawn Williams, of Rose, Williams & Partners, a legal firm in Wolverhampton that deals with tax fraud cases, said that his firm frequently received discs that contained personal data from the HMRC with the password included. “Sometimes there is no security at all, sometimes there are instructions telling you how to access the data, sometimes the password is just written on a compliments slip and included with the disc,” he told The Times.
The HMRC has a history of losing sensitive information on unencrypted CDs. This month it emerged that it had lost confidential data on more than 15,000 people after a CD-ROM was lost in transit as it was sent from its office to the Standard Life pensions department in Edinburgh. A further CD-Rom containing data on customers of an unnamed second company was also reportedly missing. The Information Commissioner is investigating the breach involving Standard Life. A spokesman for the company said yesterday that HMRC and the police had not been able to locate the discs.
In August a laptop that contained sensitive financial details of about 400 people with ISAs was stolen after being left in a car. In May HMRC posted details of the family tax credits of 42,000 families to other people after an apparent “printer error”.
A spokeswoman for HMRC declined to comment on the disclosures by The Times last night. “We cannot comment ahead of the review,” she said.
Lines of inquiry
The Government has ordered five separate inquiries into the fiasco:
— Scotland Yard’s Specialist Crime Directorate is conducting the search for the two discs and looking for any criminal activity
— The Information Commissioner’s Office is examining a breach of data protection law. It has new powers to conduct spot checks on government data security
— The Independent Police Complaints Commission has been asked “to identify the causes . . . and consider whether relevant local and national policies and guidelines were complied with”
— Sir Gus O’Donnell, the Cabinet Secretary, will enlist security experts to ensure that every department and agency checked procedures for keeping data safe
— The Chancellor has also asked PriceWaterhouseCoopers to report on HMRC’s data security |
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/consumer_affairs/ article2917650.ece
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: |
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More cartoons from the Times, here:
| Description: |
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44.03 KB |
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141 Time(s) |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The sequence of events:
2 October 2007: The NAO formally asks HM Revenue and Customs for files on child benefit claimants.
18 October: HMRC tells the NAO that the CDs have been sent
24 October: The NAO informs HMRC that the discs have not arrived. The NAO asks for a second set to be sent - it needs them urgently to ensure an audit of HMRC's accounts is not delayed.
25 October: The NAO confirms receipt of the second set of discs. It staff point out that the first set has still not arrived.
5 November: HM Revenue and Customs confirms that the first set of CDs is still missing.
8 November: The NAO begins a search for the missing CDs and the loss of the data is raised formally as a security incident. It is only at this point that HMRC's senior management is informed - but not the Chancellor of the Exchequer Alistair Darling who is responsible for HMRC.
10 November: HMRC with the cooperation of the NAO begins a search for the CDs at the offices of the audit office at Victoria. The NAO has no record of having received the first set of CDs. Only now is Alistair Darling, the chancellor, informed.
11 November: HM Revenue and Customs and the police search the NAO's offices. Nothing is found.
20 November: Alistair Darling makes a statement to the House of Commons on the missing discs and Paul Gray, the chairman of HMRC resigns.
21 November: HM Revenue and Customs issues an apology. |
So the entire "event" began on 2nd October 2007
The Data Protection Act 1998 came into force on 1st March 2000
An interval of 91 months and 1 day
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kbo234
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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I look at the issue and try and figure out what it could relate to.
My first thoughts were ID Cards so I checked some of the dates surrounding that legislation but found nothing. So far.
I was aware of the controversy surrounding the merger of the revenue and customs into HMRC and consequent job losses. I thought this could have been a disgruntled insider perhaps.
HMRC officially came into being on 18 April 2005. The "data loss" event started on 2.10.7 - 913 days. Close.
I looked at HMRC's Aspire contract with nonsense-Gemini. Maybe this was EDS bringing that arrangement to an end? EDS were replaced by nonsense-Gemini and have been penalised heavily for their failures with millions of pounds in fines.
I've been reading some stuff on the Data Protection Act recently and how it might not be "fit for purpose".
It might mean b* all, who knows.
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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The plot thickens . . .
I thought nonsense-Gemini were the sole IT services outfit at HMRC.
This article suggests EDS are still there.
Factional wars?
| Quote: | The Inquiry: Senior officials are blamed for loss of discs
By Cahal Milmo and Colin Brown
Published: 22 November 2007
The head of the National Audit Office, Sir John Bourn, locked horns with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and the Chancellor last night when he said the decision to post two computer discs containing the bank details of 7 million families was taken by senior HMRC officials and not, as Alistair Darling claimed, by a junior employee.
A public row broke out between the HMRC and the NAO over who was to blame for the blunder after Sir John launched a scathing attack on the former, saying high-ranking civil servants at the HMRC ordered the data – which the NAO had not requested – to be sent to his department. His comments contradicted Mr Darling's explanation to MPs on Tuesday.
The entire child benefit database was sent via internal mail by a junior official from HMRC in Washington, Tyne and Wear, to the NAO in London via courier TNT on 18 October.
Mr Darling said the civil servant broke the rules by downloading the data to computer disc and sending it by unrecorded delivery.
Edward Leigh, the Tory chairman of the Commons public accounts committee, said the NAO had asked only for basic details about child benefit recipients, without information on personal bank accounts, but was told by "high level" at the HMRC that it would be "too burdensome" to separate this data. He said he had been given a copy of a briefing note written by Sir John for the Chancellor, which suggested that senior HMRC officials authorised the release of the sensitive information.
The note says that the NAO requested data on child benefit claimants in a "desensitised" form, with bank accounts and other personal data removed, in March but an email from a senior business manager at HMRC stated that the data would not be desensitised.
Mr Leigh said the reason given for turning down the NAO's request was that desensitising information would require an extra payment to the HMRC data services provider EDS.
The disclosures will add weight to Tory claims that systemic failures at HMRC led to the worst loss of data in British history and cast doubts on the assurances by both Mr Darling and the Prime Minister that government bodies can be trusted to keep records safe.
It also raises suspicions that an office junior at the HMRC is being made a scapegoat for failures by more senior managers. That worker, who remains unnamed, was in hiding last night as the police search for the missing discs continued and the HMRC confirmed he was facing the sack. The man, who is understood to work in the IT department of the Child Benefit Agency, has been put up in a hotel with a minder to protect his identity as the clamour for his name to be published intensifies.
A spokeswoman for HMRC said: "His future is part of the investigation that is taking place. When that is completed disciplinary proceedings will follow. One of the outcomes of those proceedings is dismissal."
Senior civil servants are concerned that there should be no repeat of the public scrutiny and humiliation faced by Dr David Kelly, the government scientist who took his own life after he was exposed as a BBC journalist's source in the row over the "dodgy dossier" produced in the run-up to the Iraq war.
Mr Leigh's committee is launching an investigation into the lax data handling systems at the HMRC. It will summon Paul Gray, the department's former chairman who quit over the scandal on Tuesday, to answer MPs' questions.
Scotland Yard said officers from its specialist economic crime unit were helping to co-ordinate the investigation on Tyneside.A spokesman said: "Our inquiries will continue for the rest of the week."
It emerged yesterday that an almost identical breach rules governing the transfer of sensitive data took place in March. The NAO received discs from the Child Benefit Agency containing its full set of data on three occasions – yet none of its officials queried the decision to send out the data in an unfiltered form. |
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article3182302.ece
Better make sure he doesn't have a pruning knife on him then eh?
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Mr Darling also told parliament that he delayed announcing the loss of the CDs for 10 days after being told about it on November 10 because banks wanted more time to prepare anti-fraud measures.
The British Banking Association said: "The BBA did not ask for more time and none of our members asked for more time."
The Association of Payment Clearing Services, which manages the movement of money between banks, said: "We found out on Friday and were given until Monday to sort it out. There was no request for a delay." |
| Quote: | | Only a few weeks ago, the Government insisted the current enforcement regime for data protection was "fit for purpose" - despite a Lords committee warning over the summer that steps needed to be taken to improve it. |
| Quote: | | Searches were continuing for two CDs containing the names, addresses and bank details of 9.5million adults and the names, dates of birth and National Insurance numbers of all 15.5million children in the country which went missing after being put in the post by HM Revenue and Customs. |
| Quote: | It also emerged that:
* HMRC has had 2,111 data protection breaches in the past year, according to the Tories. Customs refused to disclose details of what these were
* A government review of security in 2003 identified "serious risks" of information going astray and recommended data should be encrypted
* The chairman of HMRC who resigned over the fiasco is still on full salary and will receive a full pension package |
| Quote: | | The Daily Telegraph has also seen a Treasury memo from an e-government working group meeting dated December 9, 2003, in which the department was told that a review of security by the NAO had found "serious risks" of messages being intercepted and a "risk of hacking". |
| Quote: | | Richard Thomas, the information commissioner, said he had repeatedly warned the Government that its data protection procedures were not up to scratch. |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=YZCX1NENSZ0CLQFI QMGCFF4AVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/11/21/ncustoms421.xml&page=1
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Sherlock Holmes
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah.... but if we all had biometric identification none of this would matter. Genotype, blood type, retina scan, finger printing all recorded, stamped, and filed then we'd all be safe in the loving arms of big brother.
 
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I've no idea where The Independent got their information from about EDS being the IT services supplier at HMRC.
This from Computer Weekly, March 2007
| Quote: | Risk Management
HMRC keeps books closed on spiralling IT costs
Author: Tony Collins
Posted: 10:56 16 Mar 2007
Edward Leigh, chairman of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, is a difficult man to please. But even he praised executives at HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) for successfully transferring a huge IT contract from one supplier to another.
Leigh said last year that the facts showed that, "It is possible to run a successful competition even when the incumbent seems firmly ensconced."
He was referring to the Aspire (Acquiring Strategic Partners for the Inland Revenue) contract, in which services supplier Capgemini took over the running of the Inland Revenue's IT department from EDS in July 2004.
It had been thought impossible to dislodge EDS, which had run a bewildering complexity of more than 110 major tax systems for 10 years.
The EDS transfer to Capgemini had its difficulties.
Some key staff at EDS, for example, did not move to the new supplier and had to be contracted to work temporarily for Capgemini after the start of the contract. And there were failures in the IT services which caused distress to the Revenue's corporate users, some of whom contacted Computer Weekly.
Still, more than 2,000 IT staff transferred from EDS to Capgemini without the work of the department falling apart. |
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2007/03/16/222455/hmrc-keeps-bo oks-closed-on-spiralling-it-costs.htm
From nonsense-Gemini:
| Quote: | The Aspire deal was one of the world’s largest IT outsourcing deals on its award in 2004 and constituted one of the largest contracts in IT outsourcing history. Aspire is a strategic partnership between Capgemini and Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs (HMRC).
This partnership derived from Capgemini’s original contract with the Inland Revenue which began in July 2004 whereby Capgemini, in a joint venture with Fujitsu and BT, took over the running and future development of the former Inland Revenue’s IT and Support Services. The size and complexity of the original Aspire deal led to it being formed as a single integrated business within Capgemini. The partnership was called Aspire (A Strategic Partnership for the Inland Revenue) and was based on an initial 10 year contract with possible continuations for up to eight years.
Following the announcement in 2004 that the Inland Revenue and Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise were to merge to become HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC), the size and scope of the business grew immeasurably. Since the merger in April 2005, Capgemini became accountable for transforming and delivering improved business and IT services to HMRC, an organisation now responsible for collecting over £430 billion each year, maintaining over 40 billion National Insurance records, dealing with 32 million tax payers, 1 million companies and 1.2 million employers.
Capgemini is the prime contractor and has overall responsibility for the transformation and delivery of IT services to HMRC. This covers Infrastructure Management, Application Management, New Project Work and Transformational. Fujitsu is subcontracted to manage the data services, input and output services, desktop and disaster recovery services whilst BT is responsible for the WAN, voice support and for providing call centre solutions. |
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Leiff
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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NO2ID CALL TO ACTION: SCRAP THE ID SCHEME NOW! | Quote: | With the scandal around the HMRC Child Benefit data breach intensifying, even some sceptical Labour MPs are calling for a (temporary) halt to the ID cards scheme. This is not enough. MPs of all parties should be calling for the immediate and permanent scrapping of the Home Office's 'identity management' programme.
Not just the card, not just the database, but also the mass 'data-sharing' that lies at the heart of government ID policy.
Please take the time this weekend or sooner to write to your MP via http://www.writetothem.com/ asking that he or she demand an immediate and permanent stop to all development of ID cards and a National Identity Register. If you don't already know his or her position, you can check how your MP voted on the ID cards legislation at http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
Be polite, be concise and make your points clearly. The following may help you, but please DON'T just cut & paste:
Having shown such contempt for personal privacy and security, the government simply cannot be trusted with all the information that the National Identity Register will demand. Fingerprints, and a detailed record of all your ID-verified transactions is data that has NEVER been collected before, counter to some MPs' claims that "we have it all already".
The HMRC data scandal clearly demonstrates the fallacy of "nothing to hide, nothing to fear". It is bad enough that the government can't look after families' financial details - if allowed to proceed, in a few short years the Home Office will be leaking or losing people's complete identity records. And the more data it has, the worse it will get.
Contrary to government assertion, biometrics WILL NOT secure your official record - but they will make it more valuable to fraudsters and organised crime. If the government really locked your ID record with your fingerprint, it would have to ask you every time that any official wanted to look at your information. This is plainly not the intention - and when breaches do happen, you won't be able to change your fingers like you can an account number. |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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The £8.5 billion, 10 year Aspire contract between HMRC and nonsense-Gemini was renegotiated earlier this month.
The changes achieved savings of between £60 and £80 millions or about 10% per year, until 2010.
That's quite a big chunk of savings !
| Quote: | HMRC cuts annual IT costs and gives Capgemini contract extension worth more than £1bn
HM Revenue and Customs has struck a deal with its IT supplier Capgemini that cuts the annual technology spend by hundreds of millions over the life of the contract. The agreement compensates the company with a contract extension worth more than £1bn.
The “restructuring” of the Revenue’s ASPIRE [Acquiring Strategic Partners for the Inland Revenue] contract will enable the department to cut its annual IT running costs - which are between £600m and £800m a year - by about 10% by 2010/11. |
http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/tony_collins/2007/11/hmrc-cuts-ann ual-it-costs-and.html
Announced on the GNN on 7.11.7
| Quote: | Wednesday 7 November 2007 09:00
HM Revenue & Customs (National)
HMRC agree contract restructure
HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) have agreed a restructuring of their IT outsourcing contract in response to HMRC's aim to significantly reduce IT running costs by 2011.
Deepak Singh HMRC Chief Information Officer said:
"I am delighted that we have been able to secure such a positive outcome that further strengthens our commitment to working with Aspire over the coming years.
The IT outsourcing relationship between HMRC and Aspire has gone from strength to strength over the past three years as we have seen significant improvements in service quality and delivery capability. The restructuring of the Aspire contract balances the need for HMRC to meet its commitments to cost reductions under the 2007 Comprehensive Spending Review without compromising our joint drive to become a world class IT function".
The contract is being extended by a further three years to 2017.
Notes for editors
Aspire is HMRC's contract with Capgemini and a number of other 'ecosystem' suppliers for the provision of IT services.
* The contract was originally signed in 2003/2004 and replaced the contracts IR had with EDS and Accenture for IT services and National Insurance Recording System (NIRS2) respectively. Following the merger of Inland Revenue and HM Customs & Excise in 2005, the latter's IT services contract with Fujitsu was incorporated within Aspire in April 2006.
* The existing contract term was for 10 years and due to end in June 2014. The contract has been extended by three years to June 2017.
* The commitment from HMRC is to cut our IT running costs by circa 10% by 2010/11.
* The original contract allows for up to an 8 year extension.
Issued by HM Revenue & Customs Press Office |
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=328545&News AreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=True
And the latest reason for the "lost data" containing bank details is that the HMRC did not want to incur additional expense for the IT services provider (not EDS) to filter out all of the sensitive data from the download !
When will these people learn the massive hidden costs of outsourcing?
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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There is also the John Bourn angle to consider:
| Quote: | John Bourn: The man behind released papers
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 2:30am GMT 23/11/2007
Sir John Bourn, the head of the National Audit Office, is arguably the man who has done most to bring to light the scandal of the lost child benefit records.
He is also a man who might not shed many tears for the anguish the affair is causing ministers, since they effectively allowed him to be forced out of his job last month.
Sir John yesterday authorised the release of copies of the internal papers, letters and emails that have shed new light on events leading to the loss of the records.
The documents paint a picture that appears to contradict the version of events presented by Alistair Darling. Their release has raised suspicions in Labour circles about Sir John's motives.
The Auditor General was effectively forced out under pressure from MPs and a notable lack of support from ministers.
Sir John said he would step down next year after it was revealed that he had spent £365,000 in travel expenses and £27,000 in restaurant bills in three years as head of the NAO, which oversees Government spending.
Like a high court judge, the Auditor General is one of the few public officials who cannot be sacked by the Government and can only be dismissed after votes in both Houses of Parliament.
On the announcement of Sir John's resignation, Gordon Brown paid the requisite public tribute, offering "best wishes for his retirement".
But few were in any doubt that the Prime Minister was happy to see the end of a Whitehall career that began in the 1950s.
Sir John's expenses had been an embarrassment for Downing Street, especially because he had retained the role Tony Blair had given him as the Prime Minister's personal investigator of allegations of wrongdoing against ministers.
The NAO, however, denies any suggestion that the NAO's willingness to engage in full disclosure over the missing data scandal reflects a desire for personal revenge on behalf of its outgoing boss.
Every email, press release and other written communication issued by the National Audit Office carries a boiler-plate assurance testifying to the watchdog's disinterest in the political process.
It reads: "The Comptroller and Auditor General, Sir John Bourn, is the head of the National Audit Office which employs some 850 staff. He and the NAO are totally independent of Government."
Some of the documents published yesterday underline the NAO's public commitment to objectivity.
In a letter between the NAO and HM Revenue and Customs discussing the release of the emails, Caroline Mawhood, an assistant auditor-general, pointedly writes: "The NAO is not making an issue of any of this.'' |
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=AWRYS2GFULLULQFI QMGSFF4AVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/11/23/ncustoms423.xml
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Two more discs missing from tax office as search for data continues
By Cahal Milmo
Published: 23 November 2007
At least two more CDs which could leave people open to identity fraud have been reported missing by staff at HM Revenue & Customs this week, it was revealed last night.
Police are investigating the loss of the unencrypted files, which went missing in transit from tax offices in Washington, Tyne and Wear, and contain "sensitive information" about thousands of benefit claimants, including their national insurance numbers and dates of birth. They do not include any bank details. The discs were sent to government offices in London and have yet to be accounted for. |
More here
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Disco_Destroyer
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Put quite simply my thoughts are that if you lose something of value you don't tell the world where it went missing and how valuanble it is, you just sue Royal Mail or which ever carrier was in care of it!
If fraud does happen as a result the theif would be found unless it is an inside job and the crooks had prior knowledge of the importance of the data and how to avoid detection.
Second problem is that the Info is not lost rather a copy as gone missing!!
Could it be that someone from within is trying to put out bad press to prevent an ID State? Or to make things more secure? One thing is for sure I'll die before being forced to accept any more ID. So any you bigwigs out there take that what ever way you like with your Shampoo and Caviar 
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Disco_Destroyer
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | | Quote: | Two more discs missing from tax office as search for data continues
By Cahal Milmo
Published: 23 November 2007
At least two more CDs which could leave people open to identity fraud have been reported missing by staff at HM Revenue & Customs this week, it was revealed last night.
Police are investigating the loss of the unencrypted files, which went missing in transit from tax offices in Washington, Tyne and Wear, and contain "sensitive information" about thousands of benefit claimants, including their national insurance numbers and dates of birth. They do not include any bank details. The discs were sent to government offices in London and have yet to be accounted for. |
More here |
Looking more like an inside job I say, blackmail the banks and or government I say but then the likely hood is its someone from that party already...doh 
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Data crisis hits Scotland as papers go missing
Jamie Doward
Sunday November 25, 2007
The Observer
The crisis over the security of personal information spread to Scotland last night when it emerged that confidential documents had gone missing in transit to Glasgow.
The office of Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister, was forced to admit that a package containing printed pension benefit statements dispatched from the Scottish Public Pensions Agency to NHS Greater Glasgow cannot be accounted for.
The package was sent by the SPPA on 26 October, as one of 162 packages going to 14 separate addresses throughout Scotland, by Fed Ex, the Scottish Executive's official courier.
The lost package contains around 200 pension benefit statements, the First Minister's office said. Each contains personal details of names and national insurance numbers, but no addresses and no bank details.
'We consider this to be a serious matter and our inquiries are continuing,' said a spokesman. 'There is no reason to suspect fraud or theft and FedEx are working to trace the package. If the package remains unaccounted for, affected individuals will be fully informed. There is a review under way around data-handling issues in the Scottish government.'
The revelation will reignite concerns about the security of data. Last week Gordon Brown apologised to Parliament after personal data on 25 million people went missing. |
As I said.
No country left behind . . .
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Pikey
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: |
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BBC
| Quote: | Data minister 'not told of discs'
Data protection minister Michael Wills has said he was not told that two discs containing 25 million people's data had been lost before an official statement.
He told a Parliamentary committee that Chancellor Alistair Darling was right to focus on resolving the problem.
But he said he had had concerns before the discs went missing that data laws needed "toughening up" and a review had already been announced by Gordon Brown.
Plans for a national ID register would need looking at again, he added.
Anyone claiming child benefit has been urged to monitor their bank accounts after two discs, containing personal details including names, dates of birth, National Insurance and bank accounts, were apparently lost in the post.
'Perfectly reasonable'
Asked when he first heard about the problem - which the chancellor was informed about on 10 November - Mr Wills told the joint committee on human rights: "I'm afraid I learnt about it when I heard the statement in the House of Commons".
He added he thought that "perfectly reasonable" adding: "I would expect ... the responsible ministers first of all to discover the extent of the problem; and then to do whatever they could to put the problem right immediately."
He also denied knowing anything about other data breaches reported in the newspapers - but said he had yet to ascertain all the facts.
The Earl of Onslow asked: "So there are lots of leaks and you know nothing about it - and you're minister for data protection?"
'Surprising'
The committee chairman, Labour MP Andrew Dismore, said it was "rather surprising" Mr Wills had not been informed earlier about the child benefit discs.
He told him: "If the private sector had done what the government has done they would have been had for breakfast. The problem is the government is not doing what it's preaching."
Obviously we must learn the lessons, something wrong has happened here, something bad has happened here, we are reviewing it
And he said the email exchange between staff at Revenue and Customs and the National Audit Office appeared to have "revolved around cost considerations" with no thought of data protection or the privacy of individuals concerned.
Mr Wills said he had concerns about data sharing within Whitehall before the loss of the discs.
But he said his department was responsible for data protection regulations and their enforcement - not to personally to stop any breaches of data protection "where and whenever they may occur".
ID register
He said it was about to be made more stringent - with proposals for tougher penalties for reckless misuse of data, including disclosure.
But he said the whole question of "mainstreaming" human rights throughout Whitehall - which include the right to privacy - would take "years".
He said: "Obviously we must learn the lessons, something wrong has happened here, something bad has happened here, we are reviewing it, we will learn the lessons and we will take action accordingly."
He added: We are going to obviously have to look at the national identity register in the light of all this. We are going to have to learn the lessons. Everything will have to be scrutinised and then we will assess it again."
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Data protection won't help once all the data is gone
Christina Zaba
Tuesday November 27, 2007
The Guardian
Last week's loss of confidential child benefit records has been a wake-up call to 25 million people about the reality of the government's handling of our personal information. But few realise the extent of what lies ahead. The Identity Cards Act, which slipped, barely noted, on to the statute books in 2006, is the jewel in the crown of a wholesale and well-advanced government commitment to "share" data about each of us between departments on an unprecedented scale. Already some 265 government departments are data-sharing. Electronic identity management in the UK is deeply entrenched in government policy, and yet no one can guarantee that such a data-sharing system can be secure. All we can do is hand over our information, cross our fingers, and hope that it won't happen to us.
This is the reality of "transformational government", the brave new world of the database state announced as long ago as 2005 by Tony Blair as the 21st-century way forward for Britain. Government by technology would now "inspire" policy, Blair said. We would do it because we could. We would lead the world once more, this time electronically.
It was an idea fit for a great leader - an aim stunning in its simplicity. A benign and caring government would simply use the best technology on earth (no expense spared - currently an independently estimated £19bn for the internal Home Office cost of the ID system alone) to track us from cradle to grave. It would achieve immense efficiencies by collecting, keeping and endlessly "sharing" information. This would become law. And sure enough, much of it now is.
So many benefits. Tony Blair declared himself "delighted". The authorities would be able to target each of us - just like Tesco does, only much better. They would remind you to get your insulin injection; suggest you took the train instead of driving; help you pay your tax properly. With ID cards in place, linked to a constantly growing personal database in the government's hands, we would have no more secrets. But that would be fine: if you had nothing to hide, there would be nothing to fear.
The advantages would be manifold. The country would work properly. Terrorists would pack their (transparent, resealable, non-liquid-holding) bags at airports, and leave the country, stricken with fear at the government's efficiency. Crime would wither. ID theft would be a thing of the past. There would be no more speeding. Government coffers would ring to the happy tune of millions saved in efficiency measures.
There would be no dishonest, incompetent or half-asleep staff, bored or overhelpful on a Friday afternoon, picking up the phone and kindly disclosing a password to someone in distress who said they had lost their pin number. And when all the personal records of the UK citizenship ended up on a computer in North Korea, being sold piecemeal by organised internet gangsters operating from here to Vladivostok, there would be no need to find out who made that call. What would be the point? You'd never be able to retrieve the information anyway. Too late then for hand-wringing and resignations. With information on 60 million of us leaked worldwide, the chaos would be unimaginable. It sounds extraordinary - but it could happen.
But the government refuses to listen, entranced as it is by its embarrassingly old-fashioned "vision" that technology can cure all ills - and closely advised by Intellect, the UK's leading technology trade organisation, whose stated aim is both to "influence policy" and "improve markets" for its paying members, while offering them "exclusive relationships with government officials".
The Home Office isn't hearing the clamour of concerned voices in the international internet security community, who are saying one thing clearly: this is very dangerous. Putting all our private details into identifiable electronic databases that will be linked, transferable online, and visible to hundreds of thousands of government agency staff is dangerous.
Data-protection legislation won't help when the data is gone. Biometrics won't help, because it can only secure individual transactions. The Home Office doesn't ask for your fingerprint in order to give your details to someone it thinks is from Revenue & Customs. Simply put, the system will create crime. It will be unworkable. And it will destroy the trust between citizen and state that has existed in this complex, ancient nation - a model of democracy, common sense and decency - for 800 years. The technology has simply not been invented that could keep an entire database state properly secure and give the government the control it aims for.
Yet the government aims to have made the systemic change irreversible by 2011. It knew very well in 2005 that the system must conflict with privacy. In the document Transformational Government - Enabled by Technology, we are told that there must be a "balance" between "maintaining the privacy of the individual" and "delivering more efficient services". So now we know. It's all in the balance. A pity, then, that 7.5 million parents weren't consulted.
Christina Zaba, the managing director of ethical media relations consultancy prone, is union liaison officer for the NO2ID campaign
http://www.no2id.net |
Comment at the Guardian
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: |
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"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like "losing" the identities of your citizens"
Telegraph
| Quote: | One of the first things the Prime Minister did on arriving at Number 10 was to appoint Sir David Varney as his "adviser on public service transformation". Based at the Cabinet Office, the former O2 boss is the hidden power behind the throne.
Ironically, Sir David was the previous head of HM Revenue and Customs who resigned eight months ago over billions of pounds worth of fraud and errors in the tax credit system.
. . his proposals for the public services, which involve radically altering the relationship between the citizen and the state.
Sir David's aim, set out in a report he wrote for Mr Brown at the end of last year, is to create a giant centralised government database containing information about everybody in the country. It would establish what he calls a "single source of truth" about each individual - "made more robust through the introduction of identity cards" - which could be accessed by any department that wanted to verify who somebody was. It could also be used to target services more efficiently at individuals.
The plan is central to the Prime Minister's stated intention of creating a more personalised system. "A joined-up identity management regime is the foundation of service transformation," Sir David writes. "It is important that the advantages of sharing identity information - making life easier for the citizen and helping Government give individuals a personalised service - are robustly communicated." He even speculates that there could be some "standardisation" between systems in the public and private sectors. |
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