Tues 11/4/; Kendal: Milan Rai "7/7 and the war on terro

[Pikey]

Thanx to Pen's networking, The Westmorland & Lonsdale (Cumbria) group will be attending this event/having our fortnightly meeting!

[Annie]

Hi Pikey

Thanks for that post - it should be an interesting evening!

I've put the entry into the calendar, and am very keen to get people to use it. As the forum grows, events can be posted in this section weeks in advance, and then drop off the bottom of the page, so people lose track of what's happening. Likewise, I wasn't aware that the Cumbrian group had regular meetings. Perhaps that could be posted in the calendar too, so anyone coming to the forum for the first time can see there is a local group they could go and meet. We have the same problem in London - of course poeple on the list know when there's a meeting, but those new to the movement and keen to get involved just don't know where to go.

Regards

Annie

[Justin]

Hi Annie,

Good idea about the calendar - can I suggest a high profile button on our home page saying "911 BRITISH DIARY- WHAT'S ON, WHERE AND WHEN" so we will be reminded to use it.

Best wishes

Justin

[xmasdale]

I understand that although Milan Rai is calling for an enquiry into 7/7, he accepts the government version of who was behind the attacks. His book carries a foreword by Rachael North.

Noel

[Justin]

Very nicely, of course, we shall make sure the people attending the meeting in Kendal are made aware that he has only gone part way and will have to rewrite his book if it is to be taken seriously. Poor chap!

[Pikey]

Just got back from the event, or rather non event in Kendal. a most disappointing, and negative experience.

My verdict:-

Milan Rai=Team Rachel=Gatekeeper

There was an audience of approximately 17 in a small room, and without seeking any approval from the audience Mr Rai announced that he was videoing the event! He explained that he was in court the following day and that he maybe losing his freedom for protesting.

He gave a "brief" 20 minute account of his findings about 7/7 which basically confirmed the official version, then he invited questions.

His modus operandi was cunning, clever and down right disrespectful IMO. As each question was raised, instead of addressing it, he then invited other questions, until someone raised a question which he felt comfortable with addressing.

The tough 911 and 7/7 questions were raised by Sinclair, Justin, Pen and myself. He failed to address Sinkeys excellent 7/7 question and advised he would address the 911 stuff at the end.

He made some incredible statements about the Muslim religion which I dont believe to be true and which I found to be racist. Its a good job there were no Muslims present because if there were, IMO there would have been trouble!

Four people left the meeting whilst he was speaking and I had to restrain myself from joining them.

A fruitless truthseeking mission I am sorry to report. For raising the tough 911 questions we were accused by the meeting organiser of hijacking the meeting.

Mr Rai's final message was that we have to do the right thing. Totally agree on that Milan but you can only do that when you act on the TRUTH!

I was asked at the end to make a donation to Mr Rai's expenses and declined in view of his failure to address the serious and tough questions.

On a final positive note though..............Pikey met Sinkey........FAB! and the audience were provided with the leaflets making them aware of the sources of 911 and 7/7 truth.

Peace & truth

[Justin]

Hi everyone,

Backing up what Pikey has written above, I'm just briefly writing this to say to the London 9/11 Truth seekers who will be attending Milan's meeting tonight - you must make sure he is not allowed to get away with his rubbish. He is a gatekeeper. He is either extremely stupid and naive or he is working to another agenda and for someone else. Likewise with Rachel.

I am pleased to say that we were accused by the organisers of wrecking their meeting - that is we heckled him everytime he made an outrageous remark or dismissed something which was of paramount importance. His tactics of stonewalling were straight out of Rachel's modus operandi. After Sinclair's opening detailed and excellent question about 7/7, I asked simply did he believe the official accounts of 7/7 and 9/11. He said he wouldn't answer those questions now but later on. We waited and waited and waited. His detailed diatribe that Blair attacking Iraq was the real reason why four young Muslims blew themselves up was unbelievably boring to listen to. He ignored totally Penny's question about the infamous doctored photograph of the 'bombers' at the station.

In the end, after a lot of 'improvements' by us to his presentation, he was cornered to reply to my question about 9/11 which he dismissed in one sentence by saying there was nothing at all that he could see that caused him to doubt the official story. Needless to say we let rip about all the different main inconsistencies to the official story especially the freefalling Twin Towers. His reply was that how could you really take seriously the work of a theologian (an attack on David Ray Griffin which was immediately reacted to by us) and why have no structural engineers come out to support our theories.

My advice to those of you attending tonight - make sure he answers your questions about 9/11 and 7/7 immediately - do not allow him to put them off. Do not be afraid to heckle him. It is quite clear to me that with the Stop The War Coalition, Galloway, Tony Benn et al, we must all start being more forthright whilst still being polite. Effective heckling is all part of living in a healthy democracy and if Milan can't take the flak, he should not have stuck his head above the parapet in the first place. By the way, be aware of his tactic of saying to the audience that they have come to listen to him not you and if he doen't like your question, apart from not answering it, he will accuse you of not giving others a chance - ie he plays to the sympathy of the audience, especially about his courtcase etc.

Good luck tonight

Justin

[Ally]

milan is a joke

[Sinclair]

I just wrote a long review of the meeting last night & just lost it when trying to post................

So, a short summation follows:

Milan rai shows a serious lack of research into the background subjects to his book.

He hardly mentioned his book in the first section of his talk.

When queried about the depth of his research & the anomalies that are evident (i.e. http://antagonise.blogspot.com/2006/02/islam-intelligence-and-infiltra tion.html ), he was not forthcoming with any significant response. He later pronounced that "Al-CIA-duh had a connection to the 7/7 attacks because Mohammed Siddique Khan's 'confession' was on the same video tape as Ayman al-Zawahri........"

Oh & Osama Bin Laden was sprinkled throughout..........

For the London meeting, some pointers:

Be succint & polite & ask him to respond to specific points (he fields questions 3 or so at a time & then selectively answers what he wants..) If you interrupt or interject, he will ignore you from thereon.......

Ask him/get him to admit to False flag ops (Gladio, Northwoods etc.) & ask him whether he has/had considered that 7/7 was such an op & what evidence he based his judgement on. He ruminated at large how the 4 7/7 suspects held a certain Islamic believe - HOW DID HE ARRIVE AT THESE CONCLUSIONS??

Ask him of the depth of his research & point out some anomalies (e.g. Visor Drills, previous Intel links to the Leeds Bookshop - see here for details) & whether he is aware of them.

A Kow-Tow with Rachel & her King's Cross collective is NOT research into the Whys & Wherefores of the 7/7 events.

Challenge him on his research, that's the main thing..........


It was an overall strange affair - Perhaps this talkshow is doing the rounds - in order to gather info/likely angles of critiscm for the forthcoming 7/7 narrative..............

We need to organise OUR OWN 911 truth public meetings & enlighten people who are unaware of the lies being fed to them.................

Anyway, It was good to link up with Justin & Pikey & have a pint in Kendal.........

[ian neal]

I've read 2/3's of Milan's book. Based on this the following is known about Milan Rai's views

1) He accepts without reservation or qualification the guilt of the '4 suicide bombers'

2) He presents no new evidence that is not already in the public domain to support his conclusion. He studiously avoids going into any detail of the events of the day, that's not the focus of his book (please). The main focus is demonstrating the link between the Iraq war and the motivations of the 'guilty 4' as if this would be some stunning or damaging revelation. The main evidence he cites as evidence are statements of SOME family members accepting their probable guilt and apologising, the Luton car and its contents, the 'Leeds bomb factory', the Luton photo, the reports of what the CCTV footage at Kings X shows and what he cites the Met as saying is the most compelling forensic evidence they have: a piece of debris embedded in a victim of the bus bombing identified as a detonation switch (hence the conclusion it was a suicide bombing and not remotely detonated). Throughout this he voices no doubts as to the veracity of this evidence.

3) As well as accepting the 7/7 official myth unreservedly he does likewise with 9/11 and Oklahoma City Bombing

4) It would be interesting to get the gist of Sinclair's question, but I suggest these are some of the areas to focus on when challenging Milan

First and foremost, Milan Rai is signature 305 on this petition, so YES or NO, does he support the call made in this petition (signed by Rachel, twice) that the inquiry is fully comprehensive (not some less than comprehensive inquiry into limted aspects such as 'intelligence failures' or emergency response)

Assuming he does support a fully comprehensive public inquiry, presumably he would support the examination of the following

The questions surrounding which train the 'guilty 4' allegedly caught. In his book he repeats the assertion that the 'bombers' caught the 7.40 train, which as we well know was reported cancelled

The questions surrounding the Visor consultants exercise

Does Milan accept that the British government has a proven track record of infiltrating and supporting terrorism, as demonstrated by Lord Steven's inquiry into Irish terrorism and does he accept that the British government has overseen the deliberate framing of terrorist suspects who turn out to have been wholly innocent (Guildford 4, Birmingham 6)?

Does Milan agree with Michael Meacher that a thorough investigation into the July 7 terror bombings in London may be thwarted by the intelligence services and that the intelligence services cannot be trusted to investigate the London bombings (original article) and that more generally the 'war on terror is bogus'?

Given this what are his thoughts on the comments of former US federal prosecutor and terrorism expert John Loftus that Haroon Aswat is connected to the bombings and that he was working for MI6

Do the statements in his book and at yesterday's meeting on 9/11 not undermine the principles stated on his organisation's website justice not vengeance. Specifically "We believe that the proper reaction to the September 11th atrocities is to proceed on the basis of international law, following the UN Charter, and working through the extradition law, to bring the perpetrators of these acts to justice." The basis of law does not allow the presumption of guilt

FYI, Rachel will be speaking and she is asking for support to prevent "fruitloops from bullying her".

To avoid the accusations of 'fruitloopary', to my mind the most credible position is not to proclaim that the Leeds 4 are proven innocent (on 7/7 IMO we have no such proof, just the usual questions and inconsistencies in the official position that demand answers, full disclosure and independent public inquiry), but that justice (a word Milan likes to own) demands the assumption of innocence until guilt is proven. Milan and Rachel's presumptions of their guilt is an insult to natural justice, the Leeds families and Islam and makes their support for a fully comprehensive inquiry no longer credible.

Good luck this evening

[ian neal]

Sinclair "We need to organise OUR OWN 911 truth public meetings & enlighten people who are unaware of the lies being fed to them................."

9/11 and 7/7

Although on 7/7 I would frame any event as the call for a fully independent, fully comprehensive public inquiry and invite Milan, Rachel and others supporting the official position to share the platform.

[xmasdale]

"The Antagonist" of the 7/7 Truth Campaign has sent us this about Milan Rai

Noel

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------
Revised version, minus typos. My apologies. Tempus fugit, et al.... pax


The July 7th Truth Campaign
London 7/7 Book Launch Tour Dates
Milan Rai's new book 7/7: The London Bombings, Islam and the Iraq War (published in April 2006 by Pluto Press) is about to be accompanied by a tour that it might be useful for J7/911 truth activists to attend, hand out flyers and perhaps ask one or two questions based on the various facts and anomalies that have been uncovered through the months of independent public research.

The London launch is also a public meeting on April 12th. For those interested in attending the book launch, here is some additional information about the book, it's author and the tour schedule:



QUOTE

Advance praise for 7/7: The London Bombings, Islam and the Iraq War:7/7 Book Cover: largely dark photograph of people observing a minute's silence outside Euston Station one week after the 7 July bombings. Sombre mood.

'This book inspired me and other survivors of July 7th. Understanding what happened and why is essential for healing and allows us to move forward. I urge all those committed to hope, healing and peaceful resolution of conflict to read what Milan has written.'
Rachel North, 'writer' and 7/7 'survivor'

'Milan Rai’s book about the July bombings in London is clear, scholarly, analytical, powerful, persuasive—and very readable. Seeking the real explanation for those events he completely destroys the illusion spread by the prime minister that they had nothing to do with Britain’s illegal aggression against Iraq, which no-one really believes. The author, a man committed to peace, holds no brief for the violence in those attacks and the suffering they caused, but patiently takes us through the circumstances that played a part in motivating those who carried them out. This is a book that everyone with a serious interest in the crisis we face must read if they are to hope to understand it, its causes, its effects, and how we might resolve it.'
Tony Benn

'A penetrating and timely analysis that deserves the attention of all sides.'
Ziauddin Sardar, author of What Muslims Believe and Why Do People Hate America?

'Clear, interesting and very well-informed.'
Revd Canon Prof. Martyn Percy, Principal of Ripon College Cuddesdon, Oxford


More about the book's author:



QUOTE

MILAN RAI BIOGRAPHY

Milan Rai is a peace activist and the author of four books: Chomsky's Politics, War Plan Iraq: Ten Reasons Why We Shouldn't Launch Another War On Iraq, Regime Unchanged, and now 7/7: The London Bombings, Islam and the Iraq War (published in April 2006 by Pluto Press). War Plan Iraq was translated into eight languages. Milan was a co-recipient of the Transport & General Workers' Union 'Frank Cousins Peace Award' in 1993.

Milan's involvement in the Iraq issue began with anti-war efforts in 1990 which led to his co-founding the direct action and information group ARROW (Active Resistance to the Roots Of War), and his founding of the British branch of Voices in the Wilderness in 1998. Milan went on four sanctions-breaking delegations to Iraq with Voices in the Wilderness between 1998 and 2001, and was the first person to be arrested for breaking the economic sanctions on Iraq - for taking children's medicines to Iraq without an export licence.

In the aftermath of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Milan co-founded Justice Not Vengeance, an anti-war group dealing with the whole range of issues raised by the 'war on terror'. Thousands of JNV (previously ARROW) anti-war briefings have been given away free at demonstrations and meetings across the UK since 2001.

Milan has been to prison - briefly- three times for his anti-war work. His latest prison experience was two weeks in Lewes Prison in Sussex, for refusing to pay £2100 compensation to the Foreign Office for anti-war statements painted on the FCO building in the run-up to the November 2004 assault on Fallujah.

(Milan's prison diary is here <http://www.j-n-v.org/Mil_Prison_Diary.htm>. Pictures of the action are on Indymedia here <http://tinyurl.com/mwe4x>.)

Milan is also the first person to be charged with organising an unauthorised demonstration in the vicinity of Parliament, and is to be tried on this charge on 16 March 2006. This offence carries a maximum penalty of three months' imprisonment. Milan's 'crime' was to organise and participate in the reading of names of the Iraq war dead with Maya Evans on 25 October 2005, opposite Downing Street. Maya was reading the names of British soldiers who had died in the conflict; Milan was reading the names of some of the Iraqi civilians who have died as a result of the invasion and occupation.

Source: Justice Not Vengeance Bio



In chapter 2 of his book, '7/7 The London Bombings - Islam & The Iraq War', Milan Rai used the following quote to place all coverage of July 7th, and indeed any media coverage of any event, into a usable context:

QUOTE

"That the media provides some information about an issue... proves absolutely nothing about the adequacy or accuracy of media coverage. The media do in fact suppress a great deal of information, but even more important is the way they present a particular fact - it's placement, tone, and frequency of repetition - and the framework of analysis in which it is placed.

The enormous amount of material that is produced in the media and books makes it possible for a really assiduous and committed researcher to gain a fair picture of the real world by cutting through the mass of misrepresentation and fraud to the nuggets hidden within.

That a careful reader, looking for a fact, can sometimes find it, with diligence and a skeptical eye, tells us nothing about whether that fact received the attention and context it deserved, whether it was intelligible to most readers or whether it was effectively distorted or suppressed."

Edward Herman & Noam Chomsky,
Propaganda Mill: The Media Churn out 'The Official Line'


In summary, adds Rai, "Careful reading is needed to overcome what Chomsky and Herman have called 'brainwashing under freedom'".

There would appear to be no reason why the application of Chomsky's techniques for finding nuggets of information in amongst the misrepresentation and fraud should not be applied to the reading of Milan Rai's new book. By using this technique it may be possible to locate any nuggets of information contained within. For example, the book claims that the alleged suicide bombers caught the 7.48am Thameslink train from Luton but this journey was proved by Independent public researchers to have been an impossible set of timings on July 7th.

Perhaps this is why Rai included the Chomsky quote in the early stages of his book.

Book Launch Tour Dates

For those interested in attending dates of the book launch, the full schedule is as follows:

5 Apr, Belfast;
10 Apr, Berwick-upon-Tweed;
11 Apr, Kendal;

12 Apr, London;
PUBLIC MEETING WITH MILAN RAI AND 'RACHEL NORTH' (7/7 SURVIVOR). Part of a national speaking tour to coincide with the publication of Milan Rai’s new book 7-9pm, Friends Meeting House, 173 Euston Road, NW1 2BJ. Organised by JNV, Quaker Peace and Social Witness and Voices UK.

13 April, Lewes (7.30pm, Newton Room at Southover Grange, 01273 473912);
19 Apr, Southampton University;
20 Apr, Yeovil;
23 Apr, Hereford;
29 Apr, Aberystwyth;
3 May, Stevenage;
18 May, Tower Hamlets.

More info www.j-n-v.org or 0845 458 9571.
Good luck!
Be sure to let us know how you get on.

Peace, Love, Truth & Justice

The July 7th Truth Campaign

http://julyseventh.co.uk/

email: julyseventh[at]fastmail.net

[xmasdale]

Grim from the Bristol group has sent us this

Noel

hi noel,

i am unable to make this meeting which disturbs me greatly. i would like to
make some suggestions as to how to go about addressing the balance within
this meeting.

first ask milan and rachel questions that all can agree upon. for example
the rule of law. trial by inquiry or jury or trial by media? they must chose
one. second, explain that they have attempted to write an historic document
which carries the weight of responsibility. do they agree or not? so it is
important therefore to get all the facts correct so to be understood by
future generations. do they agree or not? ask them have they attempted to
interview the families of the bombers from leeds. if not why not? for as
they agreed before is this book an attempt to create a balanced historical
document or is it trial by media or government or....theory? have they
interviewed the police about the evidence available? if not why not? and if
rachel suggests they are a bunch of "conspirloons" in the room then suggest
they are "conspiracons" or conspirators of misinformation or fear, unable to
respond to simple questions with simple answers.

remember at all times address the crowd rather than the speakers and if
there is a group of you that attend spread out around the room and ask the
questions. it will appear as if they have stumbled upon a hornets nest.

they are there to prove that their theory is correct. all we have to prove,
is that its just a theory. enjoy the unmasking ceremony!

deepest respect and have an amazing day!

grim

911truthbristol crew

p.s i have been asked to exhibit the stations of the cross in large
churches/cathedrals in berlin and liebenburg. the truth message is spreading
within faith.

www.graemeevelyn.com

[Annie]

[xmasdale]

This from Moeen:

Hi Noel,

Interesting bedfellows are collaborating on this Milan Rai.
I will be there this evening. You are right to state that no serious investigation has taken place. This guilt has been
reinforced by trial by media and the government leading to negative stereotyping indeed demonisation of Muslims and Islam.
This has to be challenged and reversed. There is no doubt that the entire debate whether on 9/11, 7/7 and 3/3 is being framed around Muslim guilt which many Muslims have also bought into.
This can be reversed by alternative facts being presented by
COALITIONS FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE.

Regards

Moeen

[Pikey]

Sinkey states:-

[xmasdale]

It wa an appalling meeting in London last night - which I'll report on later as, no doubt, others will.

Noel

[xmasdale]

Just a word of caution before anyone writes a report on that meeting here. There were vigorous attempts after the meeting to smooth things over and to make friends with those who had taken such a censorious attitude to us. If anyone who was at that meeting wants to write about it here would they be prepared, for the sake of good tactics, to consult with the others who were there before writing inflammatory stuff on this website which will be read by Milan and his friends and which will tend to confirm in their minds that Rachel is correct when she characterises us as all being crazy - an attitude which had led to that meeting becoming polarised before it had even started?

Well done everyone in the Truth Movement who turned up. I think there were about 16 of us in an audience of around 60.

Good tactics through mutual collaboration will bring advances; mouthing off in inflammatory language on here will be disasterous IMHO.

These people in Justice not Vengeance are not our enemy but our potential allies. If we treat them as the enemy before a dialogue has even been started (as they treated us last night) we shall get nowhere.

My conviction that we should dialogue with them does not mean that I agree with Milan's presumption of guilt of the 4 men accused of bombing London who have never faced trial or inquiry.

We must avoid enemy-consciousness IMHO. That is the path of the warmongers.

Ian Neal,
Could we have a discussion between those who went to last night's meeting in the private area of the forum, before we write anything in the public area about it?

Love and peace

Noel

"Blessed are the peacemakers"

[Prole]

Rachel North's version of the launch:

[Ally]

[Andrew Johnson]

Who has funded this extensive book tour? It must've cost a few quid, ay?

Of course, it's only respectable to make cash off a book if it supports the official story.

A shame that Rachel didn't actually include any of the actual questions put to the panel, or the answers given - but par for the course, I suppose.

If you are going to mis-represent the true version of events, you might as well attempt to do so as comprehensively as possible....

[ian neal]

[xmasdale]

I have now put a post in the private area which I hope outlines the nub of the issue and asks questions about what direction we should take.

Noel

[Justin]

Tell me I'm wasting my time on her inability to accept any part of our argument, but I have posted the following on her blog:

[Annie]

[Andrew Johnson]

Annie,

Thanks for the info. Any mileage in sending a letter to the publisher to voice our concerns about the way that questions have been dealt with in the public arena where this book launch has been presented?

As ever, it's a way to broach the 9/11 and 7/7 Truth issue to those who may not be aware.

However, given the comments from those who attended the meetings, this idea may need to be approached with caution, or even not done at all.

And yes, given your own experiences, it is clear to see how the establishment operates - both in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. Slings and arrows....? So much for freedom of speech....

[xmasdale]

Andrew, Annie

I think we should be discussing these tactical issues in the private area of the forum and there is already a thread there to do so.

Noel

[Pikey]

People dont waste your energy. Lets remain professional and adopt the peaceful and educated Gandhi approach.

Remember:-

[paul wright]

I agree Pikey
These people haven't got a high enough profile to be worth engaging
99.99% of the UK wouldn't know who they are or be overly interested in their views or experience
Every approach on our part obviously serves to entrench their views
If I've got the time I might go over to Hebden Bridge to take the piss or something - nothing more than that

[xmasdale]

Guys

Can we please discuss tactics in private?


I don’t agree with Pikey and dh that these people are best ignored, because I think they are running a moderately successful campaign to capture the heart of the anti-war movement.

Maya was arrested last year for reading the names of the Iraqi dead at the Cenotaph in Whitehall, was tried and convicted under the draconian new laws the government has introduced. It was a good and much needed protest, earned her fame and sympathy within the antiwar movement and among fair minded people.

Milan did a similar thing more recently, by organising a meeting in Parliament Square where the names of the dead were read. He was likewise arrested and was convicted yesterday, the very day of his London book launch.

Which of us has had the guts and the imagination to get ourselves arrested in a worthwhile way which brings us publicity and sympathy from the peace movement and the public?

Rachael’s dad, a canon in the Anglican diocese of Norwich, was recently reported in the press as having been insulted by our heartless Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, when the canon performed his loving fatherly duty in standing up for his injured, bomb-victim daughter by asking the HS for an inquiry. Later the press reported that Clarke had relented and had held a conciliatory meeting with the long-suffering and formerly snubbed cleric.

Friends House, Quaker Peace and Social Witness and its predecessor Quaker Peace and Service have lain at the heart of the peace movement in this country since the 19th century. QPSW sponsored Milan’s book launch and told me that they had known Milan as an excellent peace campaigner for many years and considered him to be a very open-minded and approachable person.

Bruce Kent (almost the godfather of the British peace movement) was the first person to greet me as I entered Milan’s meeting.

Milan and his friends are saying the same things about the war as are the Stop the War Coalition, the SWP, Respect and many others in the anti-war mainstream, but Milan is the only person so far to have written a book about 7/7 and therefore it will be in demand as a reference book on the topic.

Rachael spends much effort and time speaking and blogging against us with considerable vitriol and the clear intent of instilling in the minds of the peace movement nationwide that we are, in her own words "conspiraloons" and "fruitloops".

I think these people are cleverly gaining sympathetic publicity and, if Rachael is anything to go by, are out to discredit us. But we need to offer them an opportunity to demonstrate that they are fair-minded people who are prepared to discuss important matters with comrades in the peace movement who happen to disagree with some of their conclusions.

Now I am not prepared to say more in open forum, but I would like to use the private forum to hear comrades' views on what tactics we should take.

Have a happy Easter everyone.

Noel