Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: It's what they do!
It’s what they do!
Tony Gosling wrote:
This has been and is being used as a stick to beat this entire movement with and if people feel so strongly they want to discusss the most controversial details of the Holocaust they can, how you say, go elsewhere.
Of course certain elements out there have used discussion of the Holocaust “as a stick to beat this entire movement with.” That’s what the ADL does. It is not just reserved for discussions about 9/11. Find any mention of the Holocaust, anywhere, which calls any facet of it into question, and the ADL jumps in and calls it anti-Semitism. You’ve seen how questioning any details about the Holocaust has become criminalised in Germany, Austria, France, Canada and Italy (have I missed any?) and the politicians of a whole load of other countries are probably running scared because they’ll have their election slush funds withdrawn if they don’t toe the don’t-mention-the-Holocaust rules in future legislation, as laid down by the ADL
That is what these people do, and when people like you fold, they are winning! Can’t you get that into your thick head? _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: Re: It's what they do!
Anthony Lawson wrote:
That is what these people do, and when people like you fold, they are winning! Can’t you get that into your thick head?
Yes, thats what these 'people' do, they'll use any dirty trick in the book to discredit their enemies, and a Holocaust denier stick is a pretty useful one to beat people with!
There are sites where these issues are discussed openly, so why not make use of their facilities........? Regardless of your viewpoint, the undeniable fact is Holocaust revisionism makes the majority of people uncomfortable (myself included). Maybe this has something to do with some groups of people who welcome and support these views (e.g. Neo-Nazis) to facilitate their own distasteful views? After all the Holocaust poses quite a public image problem for those who promote far right views, nobody these days seems to recall 20m Soviet dead, or the 20% of the Polish population killed by Nazis. Some might even say the major barrier to widespread acceptance of far right policies is the public image problem posed by the Holocaust.
Its not even as if the subject has any special relevance to this board, in fact one could argue that Zionist's exploitation of the Holocaust for their own nefarious aims is the real crime. Justifying a present day holocaust by exploiting the Nazis crimes is a pretty disgusting trick, an absolute insult to the memory of the Jews killed during WWII. Thats a pretty productive way forward, and if you can also demonstrate that Zionists colluded in some way to help cause the Holocaust, thats an even more productive way forward.
Turn your undoubted talents to these type of subjects, and everyone will be happy. Holocaust denial at present serves only three purposes, to discourage people from joining or participating in the site, to give real nazis some encouragement, and to give those people a nice big stick. Why not play them at their own game, its not about 'folding' its about realism.........
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: Re: It's what they do!
wepmob2000 wrote:
[ in fact one could argue that Zionist's exploitation of the Holocaust for their own nefarious aims is the real crime. Justifying a present day holocaust by exploiting the Nazis crimes is a pretty disgusting trick, an absolute insult to the memory of the Jews killed during WWII. Thats a pretty productive way forward, and if you can also demonstrate that Zionists colluded in some way to help cause the Holocaust, thats an even more productive way forward..
Dear colleague
you do realise that this itself constitues HD/HR?
you see NOBODY denies
but anyone who investigates or studies is immediately labelled
It would be wishful thinking if it could be stated that the leaders of the Zionist movement sat back and ignored the plight of their dying brothers and sisters. Not only did they publicly refuse to assist in their rescue, but they actively participated with Hitler and the Nazi regime. Early in 1935, a passenger ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left the German port of Bremerhaven. Its stern bore the Hebrew letter for its name, "Tel Aviv", while a swastika banner fluttered from the mast. And although the ship was Zionist owned, its captain was a National Socialist Party (Nazi) member. Many years later a traveler aboard the ship recalled this symbolic combination as a "metaphysical absurdity". Absurd or not, this is but one vignette from a little-known chapter of history: The wide ranging collaboration between Zionism and Hitler's Third Reich. In early January 1941 a small but important Zionist organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel", better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang. Its leader, Avraham Stern, had recently broken with the radical nationalist "National Military Organization" (Irgun Zvai Leumi - Etzel) over the group's attitude toward Britain, which had effectively banned further Jewish settlement of Palestine. Stern regarded Britain as the main enemy of Zionism.
This remarkable proposal "for the solution of the Jewish question in Europe and the active participation on the NMO [Lehi] in the war on the side of Germany" is worth quoting at some length:
"The NMO which is very familiar with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its officials towards Zionist activities within Germany and the Zionist emigration program takes the view that: 1.Common interests can exist between a European New Order based on the German concept and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as embodied by the NMO. 2.Cooperation is possible between the New Germany and a renewed, folkish-national Jewry. 3.The establishment of the Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by treaty, with the German Reich, would be in the interest of maintaining and strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East.
"On the basis of these considerations, and upon the condition that the German Reich government recognize the national aspirations of the Israel Freedom Movement mentioned above, the NMO in Palestine offers to actively take part in the war on the side of Germany.
"This offer by the NMO could include military, political and informational activity within Palestine and, after certain organizational measures, outside as well. Along with this the "Jewish" men of Europe would be militarily trained and organized in military units under the leadership and command of the NMO. They would take part in combat operations for the purpose of conquering Palestine, should such a front be formed.
The Israelis and the Holocaust "The indirect participation of the Israel Freedom Movement in the New Order of Europe, already in the preparatory stage, combined with a positive-radical solution of the European-Jewish problem on the basis of the national aspirations of the Jewish people mentioned above, would greatly strengthen the moral foundation of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.
"The cooperation of the Israel Freedom Movement would also be consistent with a recent speech by the German Reich Chancellor, in which Hitler stressed that he would utilize any combination and coalition in order to isolate and defeat England".
(Original document in German Auswertiges Amt Archiv, Bestand 47-59, E224152 and E234155-58. Complete original text published in: David Yisraeli, The Palestinian Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Israel: 1947) pp. 315-317).
On the basis of their similar ideologies about ethnicity and nationhood, National Socialists and Zionists worked together for what each group believed was in its own national interests.
This is just one example of the Zionist movements' collaboration with Hitler for the purpose of possibly receiving jurisdiction over a minute piece of earth, Palestine.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Don't tell me [i]where[/i] I can speak freely.
Don't tell me where I can speak freely. I'll decide that.
webmob2000 wrote:
Turn your undoubted talents to these type of subjects, and everyone will be happy. Holocaust denial at present serves only three purposes, to discourage people from joining or participating in the site, to give real nazis some encouragement, and to give those people a nice big stick. Why not play them at their own game, its not about 'folding' its about realism.........
Rubbish! Can’t you get it into you head that someone who wants to find out more about the Holocaust is not a denier or a Nazi or a Nazi sympathiser? What is wrong with you? You are the kind of person who aids and abets the ADL by using their spin.
People who don’t think that Oswald shot Kennedy are not called “assassination deniers” or “revisionists” or “hate speakers” or anything else derogatory. I don’t give a damn who feels uncomfortable about the subject, they’ve been brainwashed to feel that way because something—I can’t tell you what, because I’m not allowed to find out—is being hidden from us. There cannot be any other explanation. Silencing any discussion about the Holocaust has become an industry, and those who don’t stand up to the pressures are going to feel a darn sight more uncomfortable when they can’t mention that certain subject, anywhere, never mind about the sites you tell me I should join. I mean anywhere!
Next we’ll have a moderator or “editor” telling us that we’re not allowed to mention Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians on this site. Then we’ll be told that we can’t discuss THAT anywhere, on the Internet. Next any support for Iran and the Iranian people will be: Verbotten!
ADL Wants Freedom Of Speech 'Boundaries' On The Net!
Liberty Online - How Much Longer?
By Harmony Grant
4-23-8
In an op-ed for the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, Christopher Wolf (chair of the ADL Internet Task Force) recommends "Setting Boundaries" on freedom of speech online.
"Debating differing ideas is one thing, but when one side of the debate becomes so mean-spirited, so hateful, and so hurtful that riots are the result," says Wolf, "it's time for Internet companies to set boundaries."
Someone should inform Wolf that most of history's most powerful and needed ideas sparked anger and riots. I'm sure as a liberal Jew he wouldn't want to turn back the civil rights movement as "so hateful, and so hurtful" it should have been illegal-but it certainly sparked plenty of riots!
Wolf's comments followed Pakistan's ban on You Tube because of a film critical of the Koran. Internet host Network Solutions pulled the plug on the film's main site. Wolf defends that decision since the film might spark "riots around the world."
Does he genuinely believe western freedom of speech should be decided by hot tempers in the Middle East? No. He approves because he wants to advance a much broader agenda. Wolf says plainly that he hopes the film Pakistan banned "will start a discussion of what to do about hate content on the Internet."
The ADL knows exactly what it wants to do. Wolf and ADL are heavily invested in a broad plan to attack internet freedom and shut down websites whose speech they hate, particularly anti-Zionist, right-wing, and "fundamentalist Christian" sites.
The Anti-Defamation Commission of B'nai B'rith-Australia's version of the Anti-Defamation League-recently applauded the Aussie government's "proposed web blackout for hate groups." Even though this broad offensive against online liberty isn't yet underway, it's a model of what ADL would like to see enforced by governments worldwide.
Attack of the Giant Censors
While the internet (especially in the US) remains a bastion of freedom, ADL has already made great headway against civil liberties through "anti-hate" and discrimination laws.
In New Mexico, a family-owned photography company was fined six grand in legal fees for refusing services to a same-sex ceremony . Vanessa Willock, a lesbian, complained to the state Human Rights Commission (HRC). She claimed her civil rights were violated because the Christian photographers refused their services because of their religious convictions. Instead of simply patronizing another private photography business, Willock legally assaulted the Christians' right to decide whom to serve. She succeeded because the photography company was fined thousands of dollars-warning them and other believers not to act on their convictions. Multiply this case by a few more, and a small business could easily be bankrupted by activist homosexuals who demand more than legal equality-they demand special protection and privilege in society.
The presidential race promises only more threats to Christian Americans' freedom and individual rights in the workplace. Obama and Clinton both support a federal hate law and the Employment Non-Discrimination Act . Obama even promises to usher ENDA through. The Christian Post explains: "ENDA seeks to make it illegal for employers to make decisions on hiring, firing, promoting or paying an employee based on sexual orientation. The bill, if passed, would add "sexual orientation" to a list of federally protected classes under a 1964 act that prohibits job discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin." Senator Ted Kennedy has vowed to bring up ENDA before the end of the year.
In dozens of states-California, Colorado, Connecticut, D.C., Iowa, Illinois, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin-it is already illegal to discriminate in the workplace because of sexual orientation. This means private individuals or organizations can't make decisions about whom to hire, fire, or serve on the basis of their religious convictions.
Schools are also sites of freedom violations. In an article called, "What's Wrong with this Religious Picture?" Thomas Haynes discusses various censoring and punishing of Christian students in America. He describes a Wisconsin senior penalized for an art project that included a cross and Bible verse. The same student was banned from making a metal cross for an assignment that students create a metal object of their choice!
In New Jersey, silencing of Christians continues. The 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a New Jersey school board's right to ban a coach from merely bowing his head when members of his football team led a pre-game prayer. Three years ago, school officials told the coach not to lead prayers, and now he is barred from even acknowledging students' reverence by bowing his head!
These are just a few examples of Christians facing outright censorship. The same activists who are so intolerant of Christian speech in schools and private organizations want to outlaw it on the web. They would like the US to behave like an Islamic republic (in Pakistan, police are required to immediately arrest anyone who is even merely accused of blasphemy). They would like the US to ban films, websites, books, or even cartoons that are outside government-approved speech-speech limits they will decide.
Such activism is spearheaded by the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, which has been working for decades to defame, marginalize and ultimately criminalize Christian and anti-Zionist speech.
If freedom is to be saved, Christians and their leaders must shatter the incredible fear and silence that protects ADL and Jewish activists. We must identify their agenda to strip Christians' freedom to speak about and act on their beliefs. The Anti-Defamation League must be publicly intimidated before Christians, well-meaning Jews, and all Americans. It's high time this anti-freedom organization feels the heat!
_________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:58 am Post subject: Re: It's what they do!
wepmob2000 wrote:
......Regardless of your viewpoint, the undeniable fact is Holocaust revisionism makes the majority of people uncomfortable....
Yes......and there's a very good reason for that.
Many people are continuously hard at work to keep it so. This is why the subject should not be taboo.
The fact that we are ALL holocaust revisionists (including Yad Vashem) has never been discussed in the public domain. The official Auschwitz death toll was changed from 4 million, without public debate, to 1.1 million 40 years after the event.
Before the numbers changed we had 'The World at War', which played a big part in embedding this horror into the public psyche, but since that there has been no inspection of this staggering change....nor the failure of this figure to alter the overall number of 6 million Jewish dead.
......but we are so brainwashed that it would be perceived as 'anti-semitic' to question even this reality, which obviously cries out for hard critical examination in the public domain.
Here is a forwarded email I received from a friend (with whom I have never discussed these matters )yesterday:
It was all in the most massive coloured fonts.
It is a matter of history that when Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps, he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead. He did this because he said in words to this effect: 'Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the track of history some b****** will get up and say that this never happened'
In Memorial
This week, the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it 'offended' the Muslim population which claims it never occurred.This is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.
It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended. This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians and 1,900 Catholic priests who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated.
Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others, claiming the Holocaust to be 'a myth,' it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets.
This e-mail is intended to reach 40 million people worldwide!
Be a link in the memorial chain and help distribute this around the world.
Don't just delete this. It will take a minute to pass this along.
'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil
is for good men to do nothing.'
Edmund Burke
(even the BBC says so) but who is going to go and find that out for themselves? The UK government have not removed 'The Holocaust' from the school curriculum.......in fact they send thousand of children a year on cut-rate flights to Auschwitz (90 GBP each on condition that they tell their friends all about it when they return to the UK).
Why are authorities still working so hard at selling us all this stuff?
As I said in an earlier post, it is easy to demonstrate that it ain't because of their loathing for genocide.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Truth does not fear investigation
Wake up!
If this continues...
They are going to get away with this...
and this...
which will inevitably lead to this.
Art by David Dees: http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/dees1.htm _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: It's what they do!
kbo234 wrote:
Many people are continuously hard at work to keep it so. This is why the subject should not be taboo.
Yes, but the flip-side of this is the equally unsavoury group who would exploit any well intentioned research for their own evil ends. With widespread sentiment about immigration and a looming economic crisis, this is fertile ground for the growth of extremist parties.
I can empathise with your viewpoint, although not necessarily agree with it, but there are better ways to tackle such issues. The lesson of the Holocaust must be that it should never be allowed to happen again, so why is it still being repeated on a daily basis?
I would have thought in fact that the promotion of the Holocaust as you have exemplified above should lead people to question whats happening now? Why is this country being allowed to slide into an Orwellian police state, with security and enforcement measures far more efficient than anything seen in 1930's Germany? Why is the current situation in the Middle east being tolerated?
(And to be fair to the e-mail your friend sent you, it does at least acknowledge the 20 million Soviet dead, although doesn't mention many of the other groups persecuted by the Nazis - Gypsies, Gays, Political opponents, etc).
Yes, but the flip-side of this is the equally unsavoury group who would exploit any well intentioned research for their own evil ends.
You are not thinking straight. You cannot stifle free speech because a few people use this freedom to disseminate their evil thoughts. You have to deal with each case individually. What you are suggestion is the mental equivalent of the following:
Because some males are uncontrollable rapists or child molesters, we should castrate every male. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
The card was sent from Aachen, where Anne had visited her grandmother
A greetings card signed by the Jewish diarist Anne Frank has been found in an antiques shop near Amsterdam.
The card was sent in 1937, when Frank was eight, and was addressed to one of her best friends, Samme Ledermann.
The Anne Frank museum has authenticated the card, which shows a clover-covered bell above a snowy field, and wishes "good luck for the New Year".
Frank, who wrote her diary while in hiding from the Nazis, died in Belsen concentration camp in 1945.
Paul van den Heuvel, a school teacher, was looking through items in his father's antique shop in Naarden, near Amsterdam, when he came across the card.
"I just found it in a box, which probably came from an Amsterdam flea market," he told Dutch television.
The card had been sent from Aachen, in Germany, where Frank was visiting her grandmother.
A spokeswoman for the Anne Frank museum, Maatje Mostard, said she had seen another similar card, posted on the same day from the same town, and she was sure it was authentic.
"I don't know what he will do with it," she said. "We hope we can get it for our collection."
Frank, her family and four other Jewish friends hid from the Nazis in a small Amsterdam apartment, until their arrest in 1944.
They were sent to Auschwitz and Belsen concentration camps. Anne died in Belsen of typhus shortly before the end of the war.
Time makes ancient truth uncouth as they say and much of the myth of Ann Frank is starting to unravel. Portions of the original diary were written in ball point pen, an instrument not available in wartime Amsterdam. In 1980, as part of a lawsuit by Otto Frank, Ann's father (who has become rich from the diary) the German Federal Criminal Investigation Bureau (BKA) concluded that portions of the diary had been written after 1951, immediatly prior to publication. Consistent with that conclusion, a New York Jury ordered Otto Frank to pay writer Meyer Levin $50,000 for Levin's work on the diary. The judge later set the award aside, and the litigants settled out of court.
Given the embarrassments regarding "Misha", "Fragments", "Stolen Soul", etc. it may be that the Ann Frank Diary, rather than the "Painted Bird" deserves the title of the first Holocaust Literary Hoax
Is this the kind of thing we MUST not question?? _________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
I think everything should be open to question and reasonable debate.
I can see holes in the holocaust, but there is no denying it happened, the question for me is how was this manipulated and b****** for the masses.
I'm still looking into the whole thing and finding that there is little to nothing that doesn't seem to have been tampered with to further some agenda or another.
Even some personalities on this site are doing the same.
This surely deserves to be a permanent front page topic of some sort. I've made it an 'announcement' post.
Some brilliant research and startling/ shocking conclusions.
Well dug out!
So there you have it: Ian Neal promoting reading about a so-called Muslim holocaust, and Tony Gosling backing him to the hilt, and immediately making it a permanent front-page topic. Read again, the penultimate line of Gosling’s:
“Some brilliant research and startling/ shocking conclusions.”
Well, well, well! Some brilliant research which has just come to his attention rates permanent front-page status, as long as it is about Muslims. But if anyone suggests that there might be something to learn about Jews—in their darkest days, and what might have caused them—he wants to banish their research and legitimate questions from this website, altogether. So the question has to be asked:
Is Tony Gosling a fit person to run any kind of truth forum? _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1107 Location: Free Scotland!
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:56 am Post subject:
Quote:
Is Tony Gosling a fit person to run any kind of truth forum?
Anthony, you'll know my own views by now but it's to Tony's credit that he has headlined this topic. The subject is too large to confuse with personality-issues.
While the USUK & the West is being hypocritically PC on "Holocaust Denial" it is going busily about denying an even greater Holocaust for which it & it alone is responsible.
You're just not going to hear folk like the fashionable Rachel broaching this topic and you know the reason why: one law for the Zionists and another for the rest of us goyim, sub-humans.
This is the only forum that I know of on either side of the Atlantic where Gideon Polya's research has been given such coverage. For that, I leave aside all my personal differences with Tony & congratulate him.
Free Speech in Germany (Freie Rede in Deutschland)
To: The German Legislator's petition committee
We, the undersigned, believe that is immoral to enshrine History in law.
The German State's reaction to those who wish to provide an alternative narrative for what has become known as the 'Holocaust' is a horrendous misuse of the principles of jurisprudence. The custodial sentences given to Ernst Zuendel, Germar Rudolf, Sylvia Stolz and others are a clear demonstration that nothing has been learned from the past. It is our firm belief that their sentences should be revoked and the law of Germany changed to reflect a real acceptance of the principles of free speech and the marketplace of ideas.
In 'On Liberty' (1859), the British philosopher John Stuart Mill wrote,
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
It is a sorry reflection on the German state that it deems it necessary to imprison individuals for nothing more than expressing sincere beliefs. Ironically, it is evocative of the fascism that they so desire to distance themselves from. It is a sign of weakness, of fear and shallow character.
We condemn it utterly.
We believe the time has come for Germany to show some courage. Sixty years of guilt, fear and shame have not allowed the nation to come to terms with its past. The time has come for a 'Realgeschichte' in which truth may be reached through competing narratives. To be afraid of this is to be afraid of the basis of all human knowledge.
Deutschland, wir glauben an Sie.
Sincerely,
The Undersigned
visit above site if you want to sign the petition. There are some interesting views expressed by petitioners but as usual some extreme ones. _________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Credit where it is due
Rory Winter wrote:
Quote:
Is Tony Gosling a fit person to run any kind of truth forum?
Anthony, you'll know my own views by now but it's to Tony's credit that he has headlined this topic. The subject is too large to confuse with personality-issues.
Credit where credit is due, of course, Rory. I have no problem with Tony Gosling highlighting discussions about any subject he chooses. My problem is that he concurrently wishes to selectively suppress discussions which other people feel should be, if not highlighted, then not completely swept under the carpet, at his whim.
If that continues, you might as well re-name this website:
9/11, THE BIGGER PICTURE
& THE QUEST FOR TRUTH
MONITORED BY: THE BUREAU OF DOUBLE STANDARDS _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1107 Location: Free Scotland!
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:57 am Post subject:
Quote:
Credit where credit is due, of course, Rory. I have no problem with Tony Gosling highlighting discussions about any subject he chooses. My problem is that he concurrently wishes to selectively suppress discussions which other people feel should be, if not highlighted, then not completely swept under the carpet, at his whim.
I regret to say you're quite right here. I personally think that Tony got his wires crossed, confusing the role of a newspaper editor with that of a forum moderator. I can see how that might have happened in an evolving forum. But when he should have taken a step back he didn't & issues just escalated.
I would like to think that we all learn from experience but that learning process can sometimes be a long and painful one.
Returning to the topic at hand, it's sad to see how the Nazis' victims have become Nazis themselves ... aided and abetted, of course, by the new Nazis in the British and US governments.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: The Winners Write the History Books
The Winners Write the History Books
Rory Winter wrote:
...it's sad to see how the Nazis' victims have become Nazis themselves ... aided and abetted, of course, by the new Nazis in the British and US governments.
Can we be absolutely certain that some of these “victims” were not Nazis before they made their move on the Palestinians? History is written by the victors, and the Zionist Jews certainly were victorious in their long-stated aim to “Return to the Promised Land” when the other war winners agreed to facilitate their taking over territory to which the majority of them had no previous earthly connection.
The Nazis would have picked the prime areas and properties in France and England, had they won. What’s the difference? Perhaps this is why that subject is verboten. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1107 Location: Free Scotland!
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:24 am Post subject:
Quote:
History is written by the victors
And that, of course, is why the recent Muslim Holocaust is a taboo subject in the West.
It's the flip side of PC-attitudes towards what is conveniently labelled as Holocaust Denial, ie it's PC to wring one's hands about one while blissfully ignoring the other.
I made this point in a Comment to our Rachel of North London. She panicked & shut down the dialogue, in effect declaring the Muslim Holocaust as a no-go area! Seems she couldn't handle the thought that we're all Nazis now. Far too heavy for the dear girl.
In these times it all boils down to who's handling your PR. We deal with head-stuff, virtual realities whereas in-your-face-Reality is far too uncomfortable to confront.
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 1107 Location: Free Scotland!
Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject:
Having commented on Nick's paper though not having read it I realise that I was judging it on hearsay. That is always a dangerous and foolish thing. Yet how many here have actually read Nick's paper to see what he is saying? I certainly hadn't.
So I found the site, did a search, found the paper, downloaded it & pasted it into a Wordfile. I'm presently reading it & there are things which he says in it which are perfectly sensible as well as others which are, to say the least, provocative.
I haven't finished reading it so I withold judgement but it does seem that organs like the Jewish Chronicle have been pretty selective in what they chose to publicise. That's newspapers for you.
Anyway, people should be allowed to make up their own minds so here's the link to Nick's paper:
Of course the option for all those posters unhappy with how this site is run was to make an offer to take it off my hands or set up your own alternative forum. You have choosen not to. So excuse me if I have little time for your complaints
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:43 am Post subject: Cop out
Blatant Cop Out
ian neal wrote:
Of course the option for all those posters unhappy with how this site is run was to make an offer to take it off my hands or set up your own alternative forum. You have choosen not to. So excuse me if I have little time for your complaints
Exactly how many faces do you have? Several offers have already been made to take it off your hands, but, as you must have known for some time, and the rest of us now know, it is not in your hands to be taken off. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:31 am Post subject: The Originators of Middle East Terrorism
The Originators of Middle East Terrorism
karlos wrote:
The Stern Gang clearly were alies of Hitler and regarded Britain as the enemy of Zionism.
As did the Irgun.
Quote:
The King David Hotel bombing (July 22, 1946) was a bomb attack against the British Mandate government of Palestine and its armed forces by members of the Irgun, a militant Zionist organization, which was led at the time by Menachem Begin, a future Prime Minister of Israel.
Members of the Irgun, commanded by Yosef Avni and Yisrael Levi and dressed as Arabs and as the Hotel's distinctive Sudanese waiters, planted a bomb in the basement of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, part of which was being used as the base for the Mandate Secretariat, the British military headquarters and a branch of the police Criminal Investigation Division. The ensuing explosion caused the collapse of the south-western corner of the southern wing of the hotel. 91 people were killed, most of them staff of the secretariat and the hotel: 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 others. Around 45 people were injured. Some of the deaths and injuries occurred in the road outside the hotel and in adjacent buildings.
Note that 17 Jews were killed in the bombing—one sixth of the total—so the Zionists were clearly not too concerned about who got caught in the crossfire. Doesn’t that ring any bells with those who hold that there is nothing to be gained by investigating what really went on behind the scenes in Nazi Germany, from Hitler’s rise to power until the Nuremburg Trials?
History doesn’t really repeat itself; it is a long skein which needs to be unravelled to indentify which threads are connected to each other, or interconnected with other groupings of threads. When one avenue of research is barred, it becomes more difficult, but not impossible. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Definitely not MI5
This week in London, a lone figure walks the streets of North London, which has been this person's home going back to the late '40s, when he came to this city naked and speechless. He weighed then less than 10 lbs.
Sixty years on he is feeling speechless, but not that he has nothing to say. He has lots to say, and his neighbours, many of them Jewish, are listening and supporting him against a vicious attack. Good job for him he has such support, as the basis of his dour mood is the posting on certain blogs a picture of him in full Nazi regalia.
So there you have it, a major Nazi gets exposed... Except that he has no Nazi leanings, nor do his sartorial preferences include brown shirts with swastikas. What has really been exposed is the depths of human depravity, when nasty idlers would go to such lengths to calumny someone.
Nick Kollerstrom, the subject of this defamation, has not only much support in the Jewish community, but is far from being on the right; he writes for such things as INLAP, the Institute of Law and Peace. His clothes, rather than being Third Reich uniforms, are usually a bit hippy, including his trademark hemp hat.
So why does someone go to lengths to slander him? The world is full of such people, and their work can go far. It can also be stopped, and this is what has propelled me to start this blog. Not that there is no other broiges worthy of a few words in London, but this one has catalysed my writing - with Job, I lament: "Oh that my words were written in a book." Job did not have the internet, but the Lord saw fit to grant him his wish. OK, this blog will never be a part of the Bible, but it has its purpose, and getting back to that let me give the history of the attacks on Nick.
It started earlier this month, around 14 April, when the blogger ad nauseum Rachel 'North' decided that he was a Holocaust denier! This woman found out that he had some questions about the location of the gas chambers in Auschwitz. He is not a denier, but has found credible some research that suggests the gas chambers, as marked today, show no traces of cyanide gas.
Rather than react strongly to this possible mishegaas on his part, I let him show me some of the evidence. I shrugged my shoulders. It is possible that some of the Holocaust stories are made up, exaggerated, or contain honest errors. In fact, this is what the Jewish Chronicle wrote in this week's issue, specifically noting that some entire books on Auschwitz experiences were fiction - but not that Auschwitz was fiction. The sad thing is that those who choose to cash in by writing such junk do the truth a disservice and give ammunition to deniers. In addition to totally bogus stories, there are bound to be, in any corpus delecti, a number of errors; those who find those errors are not deniers, they are not Nazis, they are citizens in a democracy exercising their right to speech - which Rachel 'North' does not seem to know much about. In fact, when people who knew Nick personally posted their comments on her site, she just took them down. Then she took her site off the hook for the weekend. So I could not communicate with this blogger, and decided to start my own when the situation went out of hand with Nick's image being photoshopped in a Nazi uniform. That said, let me note that I will allow a full range of comments here, let Rachel 'North' come back and state her case and I will let it be, as long as it is honest, not full of abusive language, anti-Semitic or illegal in content.
We do know Ms. 'North' to be a bit touchy on her blogging, and also litigous, having recently worked hard to send a homeless woman to prison. Felicity Jane Lowde, who got into a bit of more than a broiges with Ms. 'North', was done for cyber-stalking - even though none of her posts or emails threatened North, as far as I have been able to see from what 'North' et al., and I am sure they would have been quite happy to show such evidence if they had it.
As many other bloggers have said, why did not 'North' just delete/block the comments? That was her remedy, why put someone in jail and make a mountain out of a molehill?
And why state that Nick is a Holocaust denier, when he is not? And is she responsible for photoshopping his image into a Nazi uniform?
What is of concern is that Rachel uses her victim status to get attention, constantly reminding the world that she was raped years ago by a black man and then hurt her wrist on 7/7. She is insisting on a new inquiry into 7/7, despite much research already having been put into it. But while she has perhaps some personal conspiracy theory of her own, she vehemently puts down anyone else with some questions about 9/11, 7/7, the anthrax attacks, the Russian apartment bombing, etc. Some of those include a number of Jews and Israelis, including Barry Chamish, Jarred Israel, Yuri Feltshinsky, Simon Aaronowitz, Karl Schwartz, Dr. Len Horowitz, Dr. Barbara Hatch-Rosenberg, etc. These people, and their Gentile colleagues (including Col. Alexander Litvinenko and William Rodriguez), may be right or wrong, but they have a right to ask questions - let them be answered and not stifled. Further, these people do a mitzvah in questioning, even if they are wrong - and I would bring to mind a certain fire that occurred rather conveniently in Berlin in February of 1933. Anyone questioning that was sent to camps (and now, a certain former US Congressman has stated on the air that he wants to send present day questioner to "secret camps in Eastern Europe").
But guess what? There are many sources that prove the Reischstag Fire was the work of the Gestapo - I refer the reader to a book titled Conjuring Hitler. There is of course the definitive record of the Nuremberg trials, at which one of the 10 perpetrators confessed; most of the others were done in by the Third Reich in the Roehm Putsch of 1934. There is also note of a general suspicion in a 1939 book titled A Mother Fights Hitler, by Ingrid Litten (her son Hans, who was part Jewish, was Germany's leading civil rights' lawyer - he it was who tore Hitler apart in the dock during the famous murder trials in the late '20s).
But of course, the Rachel 'Norths' of Germany opposed this questioning - thank you all very much indeed. I lost one relative there, who was caught by the Germans when trying to rescue other relatives from the Baltic states. They would today not support 'North' or let her use them.
But back to the present, which is a function of the past - let me warn the UK diaspora community not to be used by Rachel 'North'. This clergyman's daughter might well look into the Bible and think about bearing false witness. She might also find that imprisoning homeless babblers is not a tenet of the Good Book. OK, I ought not to preach to her; I, thank the Lord, am not her father, but let me admonish her that she ought not to stir up trouble against her neighbours and try to use us against each other.
To my fellow Jews in London, ignore her and others' nonsense about Nick Kollerstrom. He is actually a very good-natured person, he has lived among us for 60 years and we know who he is - I do not need to use brackets around his surname as I have done with 'North', who, by the way, has been known to introduce herself by telling people she is not an MI5 agent. Rather strange, and one expects their standards are above taking in the likes of her, but after what we saw with David Shayler, who knows. As Elton John once crooned: "Is it foolproof or a bluff?" ['Fascist Faces', on the Fox album].
We do not need Shayler, who was (and may still be) in MI5, nor do we need 'North', who I suspect is telling the truth on that account. But as to Nick Kollerstrom being a Nazi or Holocaust denier, no way.
I live in the US and I have to admit that I'm beginning to see a disturbing pattern that bodes ill for Jews.
If the ultimate aim is to make Jews look bad these people are doing a bang up job. Just let one of the worlds smallest minorities try and dictate what is acceptable to believe or to speak or to queston and you have a formula for disaster.
I have to wonder whose side the Rachel 'North's' are really on. I mean if I were a Jew hater and knew that a direct assault was impossible the next best tactic would be to change sides and push what appeared to be a Jewish agenda down everyones throats until there was a backlash and a pissed off public did what I could not do.
I guess what I'm getting at is that with friends like Morris Dees and Rachel North Jews don't need enemies.
Let Ernst Zundel and David Irving have their say. If they're full of nonsense we'll figure it out. If they're not then we need to correct the mistakes and move on.
My problem is that I cannot believe that anyone could be that paranoid of the truth, whatever the truth turns out to be.
Lets hear what everyone has to say, weigh the evidence and go from there. Does it really need to be more complicated than that? Trying to hide the truth is like trying to hold a ping pong ball under water with a hat pin. It won't work, it can't work and you just look like a dumbass for trying.
25 April 2008 20:29
_________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:34 am Post subject: Re: It's what they do!
karlos wrote:
Dear colleague
you do realise that this itself constitues HD/HR?
you see NOBODY denies
but anyone who investigates or studies is immediately labelled
Hi Karlos,
Apologies for the slow reply. You may well be right, in a sense pretty much everyone on here is labelled in some way; 'tin foil hat wearers' for challenging the official version of 9/11, or as an extremist if you challenge Global Warming (Global Scam say I).
Perhaps we need some concensus on what is generally regarded as Holocaust Denial? Using the material you posted in this thread as an example, I wouldn't say there was anything offensive and nothing that constituted HD. On the contrary, its useful, relevant and interesting material that deserves to be read widely, it would be a good thing if more Israelis knew they are being sold down the river to further their masters ambitions!
Personally I would regard as offensive anything that denies or downplays the Holocaust (not forgetting it was far from only Jews that were murdered). For example suggestions or links to material suggesting that say Treblinka was a happy holiday camp, presumably with Redcoats and not SS guards...... or that Zyklon B was a benign delousing gas. (And trash like this does exist, some people seem to believe 3rd Reich propaganda to be wholly reliable, while the wealth of material that says otherwise is nothing more than lies). Just like out own esteemed leaders, and for example the Soviet regime, the Nazi leaders were extremely adept at whitewashing their own misdeeds.
Its strange how theres no dispute over, say, Russian or Polish war dead figures which include those killed in mass Nazi genocide, or oher groupings such as Gypsies, Gays, and Political undesireables (who were typically Communists). Nor any dispute of the evidence (which is fairly scarce) of Nazi social eugenics and genocide. Thats why I'm offended by, and suspicious of anyone who puts forth (Jewish) Holocaust Denial material of the sort I sketchily defined above, just what are their motives?
Materials that suggest others beside the Nazis also had some responsibility for these events doesn't absolve the Nazis of blame at all, it just widens the net, and presumably is therefore of limited interest to present day Nazis. If the Holocaust was in some way facilitated by more people than just the Nazis, or if there was some collusion to let it happen, this does deserve a wider audience.
Not even the official Holocaust historians claim that Zyklon-B WASN'T a de-lousing gas.
They claim it had a dual-use.
Treblinka looks to be little more than a railway station to me but i suppose i could be wrong. Do you have any links proving it was an "extermination camp"?
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