Brown and Queenie greet War Criminal

[Mark Gobell]

And this is how the people react in England when a war criminal visits a replacement puppet and he takes tea with an historic anachronism . . .

[Mark Gobell]

This is the political leader of Murdoch's global media empire of "journalism", "interviewing"the alleged leader of the "free" world.

How in the name of statesmanship, has it come to this?

Word By Word: The Full Interview

Updated:21:01, Sunday June 15, 2008

This is the full transcript of Sky News Political editor Adam Boulton's interview with US President George W. Bush and the First Lady, Laura Bush.

BOULTON: Mr. President and Mrs. Bush, welcome to the U.K. again. I wonder if we could start talking a little bit about the Middle East, which of course, to a certain extent, has defined this presidency -- and start particularly with Afghanistan, which I know you've been to recently, and you were at the Donor Conference. It seems to me, if we go back to 2001, the initial success of the military operation in Afghanistan, no one really expected to be where we are now with a high rate of casualties amongst British and American forces, and even in Iraq.

THE PRESIDENT: I think a lot of people didn't expect there to be a democratically elected government, either, with a parliament and a President. You know, there's a -- yes, the Taliban hasn't given up. And one of the interesting lessons of this -- of the 21st century is that proper use of military doesn't take long to remove, in this case, the Taliban. But what does take time is to help rebuild after a lot of years of just unbelievable brutality placed upon the Afghan people by the Taliban.

So, yes, of course I wish they would have all folded their tents and went away, but they didn't; they want to fight because they want a safe haven and they want to destabilize a democracy. But there is substantial progress there. On the other hand, there's still a lot of work to be done.

BOULTON: Mrs. Bush, you've been there recently, and you talked about the unbelievable brutality, particularly towards women and children there. Do you honestly feel that it is getting better?

MRS BUSH: I do think it's getting better. And I saw a lot of signs of it. I saw a lot more agriculture, for instance; a lot more fields planted than the time before. Girls are in school there. The infant mortality rate and the maternal mortality rate has dropped. I visited Bamiyan, which has a female governor. So there are a lot of signs of progress.

But on the other hand, Afghanistan was totally destroyed. And they're building -- the Afghans are building a country from nothing, which is why it was so important at the conference for support of Afghanistan for developed countries to continue to invest in Afghanistan, so we can help them build the civic institutions that they need to be able to withstand these raids from the Taliban.

BOULTON: Some of our British officials have talked about generations of involvement, both military and in terms of investment. Is that how you see it?

THE PRESIDENT: It's hard to predict how long it's going to take. The idea is, of course, to get these Afghan troops trained up as quickly as possible, so there's less need for security. But I'm confident there's going to be -- it's going to take a pretty long time to get this economy up to be a modern, functioning economy. It doesn't take much investment, though, to really help it.

BOULTON: Because there are those who say the British Empire failed in Afghanistan, Soviet empire failed in Afghanistan, and maybe the locals are just sitting out the American empire.

THE PRESIDENT: Could be. Except this isn't the American empire, the British Empire or coalition empire; this is freedom's march. And freedom has had a way of taking hold in some of the places where people have never given freedom a chance. I believe in the universality of freedom. I believe everybody wants to live in a free society. I'm not surprised that an enemy that can't stand freedom is trying to shake our will.

BOULTON: Do you think there is the hunger for that freedom, though, because some of the men, presumably, want to repress the women still --

MRS BUSH: Well, I'm sure that some do. I mean, that was -- their culture and their culture had women as subservient and hidden behind the burka. And that won't change right away. But I think women wanted to change, a lot of women do. And they're very courageous -- women who teach school there who work in businesses, who have little businesses of their own. Women parliamentarians are targeted, and they're afraid.

So it's more important than ever. A group of women parliamentarians visited me at the White House recently -- the President and me. And they said, this is our only chance, and if we don't make it this time, then who knows when we ever will. And that's why the international community has to stay engaged as much as we can.

BOULTON: Were you disappointed that at the moment Britain, Canada, the United States are fighting on the front line, whereas other countries, like Germany and France obviously are hanging back. Have you managed to make any changes -- (laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, I understand the politics of our allies. Like in Germany's case, as I said publicly, that we are so appreciative of any contribution that Germany has made. It's unusual for Germany to be committing troops outside her country, as you well know.

BOULTON: But not in harm's way --

THE PRESIDENT: Well, maybe, maybe not. But they're helping. They're helping with PRTs, they're helping -- I mean, a society -- first of all, not every part of Afghanistan is turbulent. There are some parts of Afghanistan where development can take place, and the Germans are helping there.

President Sarkozy has committed more troops. And by the way, the French have been fighting in Afghanistan early on with their special forces.

Let me -- can I say one thing? Here's the interesting question: Is it worth it? Does it matter whether or not the free world helps Afghanistan develop into a democracy? An Afghan democracy, I've come to the conclusion and Laura has come to the conclusion that it does matter. It matters for our own security, as we learned on September the 11th. It also matters from a humanitarian perspective. And the fundamental question facing the free world in the 21st century is going to be, do you want to be just comfortable and could care less about what takes place in another part of the world, or do you feel an obligation to help -- help whether it be Afghan women, Afghan children, HIV/AIDS on the continent of Africa, babies dying needlessly from malaria. And that's the question, Adam, as we head into the 21st century. And I've made the stand for America that not only will we be engaged, we'll be engaged effectively for our own security as well as for moral reasons.

BOULTON: In the Muslim world in particular, how much of a problem is it that Saddam Hussein has not been taken dead or alive, as you put it?

THE PRESIDENT: Osama bin Laden is still alive. I think that, one -- and when they analyze al Qaeda would see that al Qaeda is on the run. They made a declaration that they're going to have -- you know, to run parts of Iraq. They've been -- we've routed them in Iraq. That's not to say that they're not still dangerous or want to come back, but they've been routed. They got driven out of their safe haven in Afghanistan. Are they lethal? You bet they're lethal. Should we worry about their plotting and planning in places like America or Great Britain? Absolutely we should. But it's really hard to argue that Osama bin Laden and his movement are doing well.

BOULTON: Have you ordered a special effort to take him before you leave the White House?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I said "dead or alive" right after September the 11th. It's an unfortunate statement I made. But inherent in that statement is our desire to bring him to justice. And I read -- somebody said they -- headline says "Bush orders special hunt for Osama bin Laden." It's a little bit of press hyperventilating -- after all, that's what we've been doing ever since September the 11th.

BOULTON: Did you think it was an unfortunate statement when he used the Wild West language?

THE PRESIDENT: Tell the truth. (Laughter.)

MRS BUSH: Sort of. (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: Let me just say, when I got home she made a few comments.

BOULTON: Why, because it was just inappropriate?

MRS. BUSH: Well, I don't know why exactly. Just didn't sound serious, really, I think.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, because it makes it look like I like war, and I don't. And that's why. I mean, it's --

BOULTON: And it was the wrong message.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Look, it was unscripted, I spoke my mind, and it just sent the wrong signal. I didn't realize it at the time, obviously; otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

BOULTON: Another thing which is being suggested, coinciding with this visit, is that in Iraq, Britain and America are somehow going different directions; that you've committed to the surge at a time when our new Prime Minister Gordon Brown is drawing down the troops. I mean, do you think we've drawn them down too quickly?

THE PRESIDENT: No, look, I am really appreciative of the relationship I have with Gordon Brown, and particularly on this issue. The worst thing allies can do is not communicate about our plans and our desires. We all want to take troops out of Iraq, and we are. You're right, put more in for the surge. He, by the way, left a lot of troops in, more so than they thought they were going to leave in initially. And so we communicate now. And if there's success, we're going to pull troops out.

And I have absolutely no problem with how Gordon Brown is managing the Iraqi effort.

BOULTON: Well, it's inevitably, though, a change when, after the very close relationship you had with the Blairs, that Gordon Brown and Sarah Brown came in. I mean, it looked a bit on that visit -- I was there in the sun at Camp David -- it looked a little bit as if it was a rather colder relationship.

MRS BUSH: No, I don't think so at all. I've only met Sarah the one time -- the last time they were at the White House, and I liked her very much. We had a long -- several years with the Blairs, of course. We had time to develop a very strong friendship. And I don't doubt that we would develop a very strong friendship with the Browns, too, if we had more time with them and a longer time.

BOULTON: You didn't think -- and keeping your suit on was a bit stiff and British.

THE PRESIDENT: No, I mean, it's -- different people, different times, and yet the same important relationship. And it's inevitable that there would be comparison between my relationship and Tony Blair and my relationship and Gordon Brown. And frankly, they're both unique relationships, and both of them honest relationships, and both of them forged at different times. Blair's and my relationship was forged in fire.

BOULTON: Also a suggestion perhaps that the closeness between Britain and America is going to end with the next President, to a certain extent.

THE PRESIDENT: I don't think so.

BOULTON: I mean, and the suggestion that in France you were reorienting towards --

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, no, no, no. Look, I mean, the American President must have good relations with as many leaders as possible. There's a lot of -- and we can. I know there's all kinds of gossip about that, but the special relationship between America and Great Britain has endured for years, and it will -- it'll be strong in the future.

BOULTON: I mean, it's competitive in the end, for Britain, isn't it?

THE PRESIDENT: Not really.

BOULTON: You don't think so --

THE PRESIDENT: I don't think so. No, I don't. Look, America can be friends with a lot of countries, and that doesn't diminish the special relationship with Great Britain. As a matter of fact, Great Britain should want America to be friendly with France and Germany.

BOULTON: But some people would say it's just reality that Britain is becoming less important in the world because of China or India or --

THE PRESIDENT: I don't think so. I don't see it that way. I really don't. Surely you're not buying into that pessimism.

BOULTON: One thing -- talking of pessimism -- one thing that -- (laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: He is buying into it. (Laughter.)

BOULTON: Well, no, no, no. It was probably the one thing that Prime Minister -- Prime Minister Brown has been very clear about is the economic problems, the downturn we're all going through.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

BOULTON: And he's said repeatedly that, you know, the credit crunch -- basically it's America's fault.

THE PRESIDENT: I think we have our own problems. I mean, to the extent that America's economy helps drive a lot of the world economy and to the extent that we've slowed down -- therefore, you know, part of it has to do with America's slowdown. But high energy prices aren't America's fault. High energy prices are the fault of demand relative to world supply. And we're getting our house back in order. I mean, if what the Prime Minister is saying is, I hope America recovers as quickly as possible, I'm right there with him. And we had a significant stimulus package that we passed back to our people.

BOULTON: Do you think it was too free economically in the United States with the growth of the sub-prime market and the loans that were --

THE PRESIDENT: You know, I think it's -- first of all, I don't think there is such a thing as almost too free an economy. I'm a free market person. Inherent in that question is, do you think the government ought to be regulating more of economic growth; I don't believe that. I think it's a combination, no question, of an oversupply in housing. And there was, frankly, some -- you know, Wall Street created some products that people weren't sure what they were buying, really.

And it's just a confluence of some bad events that came together, and yet our economy is still growing. Keep in mind, this is -- you know, this is an economy that grew nearly 1 percent in the last quarter. Is that good enough? No. But it's certainly better than the negative.

BOULTON: There's no answer to oil shortage, though, is there?

THE PRESIDENT: I don't -- you know, there is, but there's not a magic wand for today. I mean, politicians would love to be able to say to the consumers, okay, your price of gasoline is dropping precipitously because I said it has to. It took us a while to get in this problem and it's going to take a while to get out of it.

Now, in America, what we need to be doing is drilling for more oil and gas, except --

BOULTON: There's a lot of people who say that's short-sighted. You know, it's going to run out one day.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, in the meantime you've got a bunch of people squawking about the price of gasoline. And because we didn't try to find more oil and gas, we're in a pinch in America.

Secondly, hydrocarbons is simply a transition to new technologies. And what we're learning is it's going to take a while for new technologies to get on the market. And the question is, will consumers pay more for gasoline or will they have a reasonable price for gasoline? And as a result of the Democratic Congress not letting us drill for oil and gas in America, our consumers are paying a higher price for gasoline.

BOULTON: Do you think Gordon Brown can achieve much by going to Saudi Arabia?

THE PRESIDENT: We'll see. As I said, I thought it was an interesting idea. I frankly haven't spent all that much time fully analyzing what's possible, what's not possible, -- and I will when I get home. I've got some people thinking about it and I'm going to send a -- I'm going to send, you know, the appropriate level person there.

BOULTON: Mrs. Bush, this has been perhaps the most controversial presidency because of what happened on 9/11 and since, I think -- certainly that I've ever covered. And there's been a lot of criticism of your husband and his administration -- people saying, you know, this is the "good riddance tour" and "the worst presidency ever" and all that. I mean, that must have hurt a lot, you and your family.

MRS BUSH: Well, it does bother me, of course. Like everyone, you know, I hope my husband would be popular; people want to be popular. But on the other hand, I know what he's really like and I know how serious these times are for our country and for the world, and that he's made the very tough decisions that I think people would want their leader to make and I know Americans appreciate.

BOULTON: I mean, has it been good for your marriage -- eight years in the White House?

MRS BUSH: It's been fine for our marriage.

THE PRESIDENT: Never been better.

MRS BUSH: We have a very good marriage. We both have a lot of strength. And believe me, these were years when you really needed to be really strong.

BOULTON: Yes, Cherie Blair called it the "goldfish bowl."

THE PRESIDENT: Let me say this to you about all this popularity stuff. First of all, popularity is fleeting. And I want it to be said about George W. Bush that when he finished his presidency, he looked in the mirror at a man who did not compromise his core principals for the sake of politics, or the Gallup poll, or the latest, you know, whatever. And you can't lead in this world if you're chasing something as temporary as a popularity poll.

BOULTON: I mean, you've talked a lot about freedom. I've heard you talk about freedom -- I think every time I've seen you.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

BOULTON: And yet there are those who would say, look, let's take Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib and rendition and all those things, and to them that is the, you know, the complete opposite of freedom.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course if you want to slander America, you can look at it one way. But you go down -- what you need to do -- I think I suggested you do this at a press conference -- if you go down to Guantanamo and take a look at how these prisoners are treated -- and they're working it through our court systems. We are a land of law.

BOULTON: But the Supreme Court have just said that -- you know, ruled against what you've been doing down there.

THE PRESIDENT: But the district court didn't. And the appellate court didn't.

BOULTON: The Supreme Court is supreme, isn't it?

THE PRESIDENT: It is, and I accept their verdict. I don't agree with their verdict. And it's not what I was doing down there. This was a law passed by our United States Congress that I worked with the Congress to get passed and sign into law.

BOULTON: But it looked like an attempt to bypass the Constitution, to a certain extent.

THE PRESIDENT: This was a law passed, Adam. We passed a law. Bypassing the Constitution means that we did something outside the bounds of the Constitution. We went to the Congress and got a piece of legislation passed.

BOULTON: Which is now being struck down, I think.

THE PRESIDENT: It is, and I accept what the Supreme Court did, and I necessarily don't have to agree with it.

My only point to you is, is that yes, I mean, we certainly wish Abu Ghraib hadn't happened, but that should not reflect America. This was the actions of some soldiers. That doesn't show the heart and soul of America. What shows the heart and soul of America is the sacrifice of our troops willing to defend our country and liberate 50 million people, or the generosity of America when it comes to providing money for HIV/AIDS in Africa, or the fact that America feeds more of the hungry in the world than any other country. That's the true America.

BOULTON: I talked to Tony Blair just before he left office. You've got a few months more than when I spoke to him and talked about the people, obviously on our side, but the civilians who've died, particularly in the Middle East. And he said quite properly he took responsibility for that; that it weighed on his conscience what had happened. Is that how you feel?

THE PRESIDENT: When anybody dies in war, of course it weighs on my conscience. And on the other hand, getting rid of Saddam Hussein was the right thing to do, and I'm not going to back off one inch on that. The world is better off without him. And I'm sorry that innocent civilians die in Iraq, but I want you to remember, hundreds of thousands died when Saddam Hussein was leading that country. And war is brutal; I wish we didn't have war. But I believe we're now on the way to peace.

BOULTON: Mrs. Bush, I just want to ask you a question. You spoke about Hillary Clinton, congratulating her for her effort. Do you think whoever wins this next election that the Vice President should be a woman? (Laughter.)

MRS BUSH: That's a very good one. I think I'll leave it up to both of those candidates to pick their own Vice Presidential candidate.

BOULTON: But time for a woman, do you think?

MRS BUSH: Sure. You know, I mean, of course I want to see a woman President in the United States; a Republican woman, that is.

BOULTON: Yes. Condoleezza Rice, how about that?

THE PRESIDENT: She'd be good.

MRS BUSH: I've always been Condi's biggest fan, but she said she doesn't want to run.

BOULTON: Finally, what about the Bush family? We've had father and son in the White House. Is this the end or not?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, we've got another one out there who did a fabulous job as Governor of Florida, and that's Jeb. But, you know, you better ask him whether or not he's thinking about running. But he'd be a great President.

BOULTON: Would you advise the next generation to --

MRS BUSH: Sure, if they want to. I mean, this is an unbelievable life, a life of public service. And I think one of the reasons that George and his brother, Jeb, served in office is because they admired their father so much and saw how he was as a public servant.

BOULTON: So he's not the last Bush.

MRS BUSH: Well, who knows. We'll see.

THE PRESIDENT: I'd recommend one of them running. It's been a fabulous life. Just remember, there's six months to go and a lot can get done in six months.

BOULTON: Thank you very much.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, sir.