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Stephen
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The Watcher
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outsider
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 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt if Ian Crane would find problems with her presentation above.
Certainly seems pukka to me.
I have Ian's DVD, and though I cannot remember all of it, they both seem to be virulently against Codex, and rightly so.
I got some vitamins at a health store last weekend; I said, when she affirmed she had multivitamins, 'so they haven't stopped them yet?'.
She said no. I asked her if she had heard of Codex Alimentarius, and she hadn't.
I gave her a copy of Ian's videos on Codex, and also one about vaccines, 'Vaccines: the Hidden Dangers'.
According to Rima Laibow (video clip above), the guillotine drops in December this year; I hadn't known that before.
_________________
'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7. |
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Moon-in-Taurus
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | According to Rima Laibow (video clip above), the guillotine drops in December this year; I hadn't known that before. |
Outsider, I used to quote her, and ended up feeling very silly, again.
Clips from the links that The Watcher posted above:
http://www.anhcampaign.org/news/codex-misinformation-creates-public-co nfusion
Codex misinformation creates public confusion
| Quote: | Are you confused over what impact Codex will have on food and dietary supplements? If so, we're not surprised, given the rampant misinformation about Codex that abounds on the internet.
Will Codex ban food supplements from 31st December 2009?
One of the rumours that abounds suggests that Codex will ban a wide variety of food supplements as of 31 December 2009. This is wrong. This date refers to the end of the transition phase of the European Food Supplements Directive which brings in a ban after this date of any vitamin or mineral food supplement that has yet to be approved on the Directive's positive list (Annex II).
This means that many food supplements containing vitamins and minerals that have not been approved as safe and bioavailable by the European Food Safety Authority will indeed be banned from 1 January 2010. But it is not Codex that is causing these bans—it is the European Directive. The same European Directive will also likely impose restrictions on maximum dosages on vitamins and minerals in 2010—and this is something that the ANH, together with a number of other organisations, such as the Irish Association of Health Stores, are working very hard to counter. But again, these restrictions on dosages are not the result of Codex, but are the effects of the EU Directive. |
http://www.thenhf.com/articles/articles_486/articles_486.htm
From Why Does Dr. Rima Laibow Use Psychological Warfare Techniques?
by Jonathan Campbell, April 2007
| Quote: | (Dr Laibow:)
“Some people in the CODEX arena are now focusing on FTAA and CAFTA and saying that it is a waste of time to focus in CODEX because FTAA and CAFTA contain CODEX language in their text. These forces are either using mis- or dis- information by misleading people to think that because these trade agreements contain CODEX language they somehow are a significant part of the Codex problem.”
Dr. Laibow does not reveal that the many Codex committees are all controlled by the multinational agricultural and pharmaceutical companies, so that it is precisely what she is telling people to do – trying to change the Codex regulations – is fruitless. She does not reveal that the Codex regulations themselves, without multinational agreements such as FTAA and CAFTA in place, are just pieces of paper that lack any power.
These are masterful uses of Semantic Differential. Many orators and politicians have mastered this kind of psychological use of words without learning it from Army Intelligence, but one can only wonder where a naturopathic doctor such as Dr. Laibow might have learned to write in this fashion. Perhaps it was from working with her husband, General Albert Stubblebine, former head of the US Army Intelligence & Security Command (INSCOM) 1981-84. Anyone in that position would be steeped in knowledge about psychological warfare techniques and especially about the use of Semantic Differential.
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Her husband is the same General Stubblebine who has been saying for some time that the thing that hit the Pentagon could not have been a plane but could have been a missile. He is a "black ops" expert.
Very complicated. |
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outsider
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| Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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@ moon-in Taurus:
Her husband is the same General Stubblebine who has been saying for some time that the thing that hit the Pentagon could not have been a plane but could have been a missile. He is a "black ops" expert.
I won't try to answer the Codex / Multinational argument, I am not versed enough in it. But it seems to me Codex is just part of the NWO global plan of regulations. Either way, whoever is going to ban the vitamins, reduce the potency etc., the whole idea stinks.
But as for Stubblebine saying whatever hit Pentagon couldn't have been a plane, but could have been a missile, I don't see what that has to do with 'Black Ops' or disinfo. Most Truthers would agree. A plane cannot hit a wall, make a 16'-18' diameter round hole, and leave unbroken windows where wings and engines would have impacted. We've all seen the pictures; are you suggesting they are faked? And, of course, make a neat round hole through 9' of steel-reinforced concrete.
_________________
'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7. |
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Moon-in-Taurus
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Joined: 22 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Goodness, no. I shall just go and hide my head in a bucket
while
independenWV of the prison planet forum tells the story:
| Quote: | Re: Stubblebine & Laibow (guests on AJ show last week)
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 10:25:03 AM »
http://www.ymlp167.com/pubarchive_show_message.php?jham+1544
http://www.nocodexgenocide.com/page/page/3113450.htm
True Ott, PhD, is a naturopath in Utah and owner of Mother Earth Minerals http://www.meminerals.com/ His doctoral thesis was titled Harmonic Resonance- a Theorem and it was a brilliant effort to understand the work of Royal Raymond Rife who used resonant frequencies to cure diseases. When Ott set up a clinic to research this further in which he was advising MDs who were working with him, a massive effort was made to shut him down. He was put on trial and an attempt was made to charge him with "Practicing Medicine Without a License" (even though he wasn't practicing medicine, he was merely conducting research and in a totally lawful way), but they did not find him guilty due to the courageous intervention of James Dussault, ND http://www.wnho.net/drdussault.htm.
Shortly after assisting Dr.Ott as an expert witness in court in which he testified that the court could not legally proceed against Dr.Ott due to the Nuremberg Code, Dr.Dussault was murdered by the CIA in Arizona where he was shot on February 19,2002 and his office was firebombed. He was the founder of the World Natural Health Organization, and the Global Martial Arts Federation. Obviously, Dr.Ott's research went directly against the New World Order's societal control and population control agendas.
Dr. Ott has just done a great job of exposing the (so called) "Natural Solutions Foundation" (Rima Laibow, MD and Major General Albert Stubblebine) on Rebecca Carley MDs radio show called "Whats Ailing America?" and I urge you to listen to the archive of last Saturday's show which can be heard here: http://216.240.133.177/archives32/Carley/2008/12/Carley_1_121308_14000 0.mp3 Ott has some particularly interesting facts to relate about General Stubblebine and his involvement with CIA black operations pertaining to "Silent Sound" technology which was used during the first Gulf war to cause thousands of Iraqi troops to surrender en masse.
I will be building on his information with an ADDITIONAL expose of the "Natural Solutions Foundation" tomorrow on Dr. Carley's web based show which you can hear tomorrow (Saturday December 20th from 3-5 PM Eastern time (Noon-2PM Pacific) via http://www.republicbroadcasting.org/index.php?cmd=listenlive This is a call in show, and I encourage you to participate and to forward this alert to others because unless we successfully thwart NSF's efforts to hijack the health freedom movement, we won't have a chance of stopping the Pharma driven agenda to defend our access to dietary supplements! (If you MISS the show, it will be archived at http://www.republicbroadcasting.org/index.php?cmd=archives.year&Progra mID=36&year=8&backURL=index.php%3Fcmd%3Darchives
If you aren't familiar with the immense problem of NSF being a controlled opposition group, please see http://www.nocodexgenocide.com/page/page/3312735.htm http://www.nocodexgenocide.com/page/page/3112930.htm and especially this enlightening article by Paul Taylor of the Dr. Rath Health Foundation http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/THE_FOUNDATION/Events/codex-moderng eneral.html (and read the links from this article about General Stubblebine).
In tomorrows radio show you will see just how NSF has been trying to steer unwitting vitamin consumers and alternative practitioners into dead ends and into superfluous courses of action and phony fundraising intended to divert our efforts in many ways so that we won't be able to successfully stop Codex. General Stubblebine and Dr.Laibow are highly skilled manipulators, and Dr.Carley and I will build on Dr.Otts efforts to expose them in the hope of successfully countering their efforts against us.
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http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=73408.0 |
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outsider
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Moon-in-Taurus wrote: | Goodness, no. I shall just go and hide my head in a bucket
while
independenWV of the prison planet forum tells the story: |
I will when I get the time check these archived Prison Planet programs out; but you have carefully skirted the Pentagon attack.
Do you think a 'plane' hit and penetrated the 9' steel-reinforced walls of the Pentagon?
Do you think wings and engines could hit the outer wall, leave no discernable debris, and leave windows they would have struck unbroken?
Even if Stubblebine and his wife are wrong about the Codex, he is right about the Pentagon.
_________________
'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7. |
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outsider
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: |
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ANYBODY WHO BELIEVES A BOEING HIT THE PENTAGON SHOULD CHECK THIS SITE OUT:
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
With Calum Douglas' video of black box info reconstruction, showing it was not low enough, and on wrong course, to hit poles and Pentagon); thirteen eyewitness testimonies to having seen the plane (but on a flight path which could not have knocked down the light poles and hit the Pentagon), is anyone out there suggesting Pilots for 911 Truth and Calum Douglas are 'controlled opposition'?
Here is one of their videos online:
http://vodpod.com/watch/1632533-911-attack-on-the-pentagon
and here is Calum's video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2833924626286859522
_________________
'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7. |
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Thermate911
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 16 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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@ outsider - yes, great links to great information.
What I find odd is that many people seem to be ignoring the recent CIT eye witness evidence - which cannot be ignored by a court of law.
Second link in my sig...
As for Codex, psy-ops and distraction aside, it is without doubt a most diabolic document in the truest sense of the word. It spells death to Nature, whichever way you read it.
Snag is, as pointed out, the majority are entirely, blissfully ignorant of it...
Hey ho - I'm off to the real world for a while. Bye.
_________________
"We will lead every revolution against us!" - attrib: Theodor Herzl
"Timely Demise to All Oppressors - at their Convenience!" - 'Interesting Times', Terry Pratchett |
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Moon-in-Taurus
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="outsider"] | Moon-in-Taurus wrote: | Goodness, no. I shall just go and hide my head in a bucket
while
independenWV of the prison planet forum tells the story:
I will when I get the time check these archived Prison Planet programs out; but you have carefully skirted the Pentagon attack.
Do you think a 'plane' hit and penetrated the 9' steel-reinforced walls of the Pentagon?
Do you think wings and engines could hit the outer wall, leave no discernable debris, and leave windows they would have struck unbroken?
Even if Stubblebine and his wife are wrong about the Codex, he is right about the Pentagon. |
No, I don't believe a plane hit the Pentagon. Looks like a missile to me too.
In fact Stubblebine's original youtube video (dated 2006 I think) inclined me to regard him as having joined the side of the angels. His involvement in the Codex misinformation destroys that regard, since Codex is indeed an evil piece of work.
Perhaps he did his Pentagon thing to gain credibility for the active dark operation that is the misinformation about Codex. Do please tell me an easy way to say it.
911 has been done, they can give ground on that. Codex is a work in progress. |
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outsider
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| Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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@ Moon-in-Taurus:
Perhaps he did his Pentagon thing to gain credibility for the active dark operation that is the misinformation about Codex. Do please tell me an easy way to say it.
911 has been done, they can give ground on that. Codex is a work in progress.
911 is indeed a 'fait accompli', but it's the key to exposing the whole abomination that is the NWO, Illuminati, CFR, Round Table, Trilateral Commission, Masonic Agenda that we are living through, which of course includes Codex.
_________________
'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7. |
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TonyGosling
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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Codex Alimentarius is of course a crucial topic for the future of the population of Planet Earth
So here are some real good health links
Independent minded doctors etc.
Usually struggling to survive under campaigns of disinformation and censorship by the pharmaceutical industry cartel
Dr. Matthias Rath
As a doctor and scientist I was privileged to contribute to several areas which I believe will allow mankind to build a healthier and hopefully more peaceful world. My discoveries in the area of natural health prevention and treatment of cardiovascular disease will allow us to largely eradicate heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure, heart failure, irregular heart beat and a variety of other related conditions in this and the future generations of mankind.
In June 1997, Dr. Rath gave a historic speech in Chemnitz, Germany in which he outlawed the pharmaceutical 'busi-ness with disease'
The second contribution to mankind I made was the exposure of the pharmaceutical industry as the largest investment industry on earth, maintaining and promoting one of the largest deception and fraud schemes in the history of mankind. While the advertisements promise “health” the very market place of this investment industry is the existence and expansion of diseases. Prevention, root cause treatment and eradication of diseases threaten the pharmaceutical “investment business with disease” and are therefore fought by the so-called pharmaceutical cartel. In a public presentation in June 1997, I formulated for the first time the sobering analysis, that the very industry that claims the monopoly on global “health care” is by itself the biggest obstacle for the people of the world to enjoy a healthy life.
http://www4.dr-rath-foundation.org/
Welcome to Orthomolecular Medicine Online
Orthomolecular medicine, as conceptualized by double-Nobel laureate Linus Pauling, aims to restore the optimum environment of the body by correcting imbalances or deficiencies based on individual biochemistry, using substances natural to the body such as vitamins, minerals, amino acids, trace elements and fatty acids. The term "orthomolecular" was first used by Linus Pauling in a paper he wrote in the journal Science in 1968. The key idea in orthomolecular medicine is that genetic factors affect not only the physical characteristics of individuals, but also to their biochemical milieu.
http://www.orthomed.org/
Safe Harbor founder Dan Stradford
We live in a changing world. Surveys show 69% of the U.S. population now uses vitamins or other natural remedies. Increasing numbers seek safer and more effective health care through medical doctors inclined toward natural healing or similar professionals such as chiropractors, Oriental medicine practitioners, naturopaths, homeopaths, and nutritionists. Bookstore shelves are filled in greater numbers with titles promoting natural or alternative healing of all manner of mental ills, such as anxiety, depression, senility, psychosis, "hyperactive" children, etc.
Another flood of books has been written by professionals speaking out against the unnecessary or hazardous use of prescription mind-altering drugs, mistaken psychiatric diagnosis of adults and children, harmful therapies and a host of other issues in the treatment of the mentally troubled.
Headlines now announce "new discoveries" of remarkably effective herbal remedies (such as St. John’s Wort) or nutritional treatments for mental disturbances. Clearly an expanding sector of the population is seeking a "safe harbor" from mental troubles and from traditional mental health practices.
Thus the mission of Safe Harbor is to assist and promote non-harmful, alternative (non-psychiatric) methods and practitioners for helping the mentally disturbed. Our purpose is to provide education and choice to the public in the matter of alternative mental health practices.
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/
_________________
www.lawyerscommitteefor9-11inquiry.org
www.rethink911.org
www.patriotsquestion911.com
www.actorsandartistsfor911truth.org
www.mediafor911truth.org
www.pilotsfor911truth.org
www.mp911truth.org
www.ae911truth.org
www.rl911truth.org
www.stj911.org
www.v911t.org
www.thisweek.org.uk
www.abolishwar.org.uk
www.elementary.org.uk
www.radio4all.net/index.php/contributor/2149
http://utangente.free.fr/2003/media2003.pdf
"The maintenance of secrets acts like a psychic poison which alienates the possessor from the community" Carl Jung
https://37.220.108.147/members/www.bilderberg.org/phpBB2/ |
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GodSaveTheTeam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:35 am Post subject: Herbal remedies to disappear from shelves |
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Interesting to note that this news is released at midnight on Saturday night...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12196371
| Quote: | Hundreds of traditional and imported remedies on the shelves of health food shops and herbalists are set to be banned under new licensing rules.
The EU directive aims to protect users from any damaging side-effects that can arise from taking unsuitable medicines. |
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http://www.youtube.com/user/bobzimmerfan?feature=mhum#p/a |
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Andrew.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The EU directive aims to protect users from any damaging side-effects that can arise from taking unsuitable medicines.
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Oh, that’s good then as all pharmacy (chemical) products have damaging side effects (death really.) But I suspect that I’ve misinterpreted their true (untrue really) intentions "unsuitable medicines". |
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fish5133
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew. wrote: | | Quote: | The EU directive aims to protect users from any damaging side-effects that can arise from taking unsuitable medicines.
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Oh, that’s good then as all pharmacy (chemical) products have damaging side effects (death really.) But I suspect that I’ve misinterpreted their true (untrue really) intentions "unsuitable medicines". |
greek word for witchcraft is pharmakia from which we get pharmacy.
herbalists are just pharmacists/chemists in a less formal/controlled guise.
ban fags
ban booze
ban cars
ban fat
All with pretty damaging side effects. One might argue that getting drunk is not a side effect but its primary function.
looks like we will all have to grow our own!
_________________
JO911B.
"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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Andrew.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
looks like we will all have to grow our own!
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They don't even allow that, as we have been taken of the land by usury and such (unlawful legislation) to grow any green (none toxic) herbs/plants that are a part of a healthy diet (not medicine, pharmacy.) Keep the Covenant and you/we won’t get sick bodies, headaches and the like, even.
Realise what it’s like to keep that part of the Covenant and the (Spiritual) Joy, health gained (Soul and body) as a Blessing and of our own free will we wouldn’t take any drugs.
Then:
15:22 Jesus said: Woe to the flesh which depends upon the soul; woe to the soul which depends upon the flesh.
15:23 His disciples said to Him: When will the Kingdom come?
15:24 Jesus said: It will not come by expectation; they will not say: "See, here", or: "See, there". But the Kingdom of the Father is spread upon the earth and men do not see it.
But like you suggest "we should grow our own."
And stand up for ourselves and others.
PS: I know many here know much of this this. |
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outsider
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Joined: 30 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| fish5133 wrote: | | Andrew. wrote: | | Quote: | The EU directive aims to protect users from any damaging side-effects that can arise from taking unsuitable medicines.
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Oh, that’s good then as all pharmacy (chemical) products have damaging side effects (death really.) But I suspect that I’ve misinterpreted their true (untrue really) intentions "unsuitable medicines". |
greek word for witchcraft is pharmakia from which we get pharmacy.
herbalists are just pharmacists/chemists in a less formal/controlled guise.
ban fags
ban booze
ban cars
ban fat
All with pretty damaging side effects. One might argue that getting drunk is not a side effect but its primary function.
looks like we will all have to grow our own! |
Totally agree with Andrew here.
Herbal remedies (sometimes referred to as 'old wives tales') certainly work in many instances; the pharmaceutical conglomerates (whilst lobbying for their banning) know this, and whilst filching the ideas and historic usages of plants, tabletise them and flog them at big mark-ups.
Some people have been warning us for some years this was coming; cheap (often) historic remedies are denied to us by legislation, whilst whatever poisonous GM or 'vaccines' are forced upon us.
This is an extremely important issue, and should be treated as such, another machination by the 'False Flaggers', 'Agent Provocateurs' and the NWO fiends who are implementing 'Human population culling'.
_________________
'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7. |
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Andrew.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Just to make it clear, I wasn’t suggesting using herbs/plants as a medicine, but that a healthy diet will help to keep the body healthy, green herbs/plants (none toxic) are just a part of a healthy diet and also more importantly to be spiritually aligned.
| Quote: | | In this evil world, people give drugs to people in order to "remove" their drug problem?!! People, your drug-dependency or usage is the result of a CAUSE, a SPIRITUAL and NON-PHYSICAL cause. We aren't chemical-dependent, we are LOVE-DEPENDENT. We have been conned into believing that, by using something physical, our Spirits / Beings / Souls (the real us); which are non-physical Light / Essence; will feel better. With every comedown you feel WORSE and the next "high" is always LOWER. The only permanent solution is to learn how to use your will-power, not only so you "don't take drugs", including pharmaceutical ones, but primarily to water the vast spiritual desert inside every one of us and fulfill the very reason for our existence. |
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outsider
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Andrew. wrote: | Just to make it clear, I wasn’t suggesting using herbs/plants as a medicine, but that a healthy diet will help to keep the body healthy, green herbs/plants (none toxic) are just a part of a healthy diet and also more importantly to be spiritually aligned.
| Quote: | | In this evil world, people give drugs to people in order to "remove" their drug problem?!! People, your drug-dependency or usage is the result of a CAUSE, a SPIRITUAL and NON-PHYSICAL cause. We aren't chemical-dependent, we are LOVE-DEPENDENT. We have been conned into believing that, by using something physical, our Spirits / Beings / Souls (the real us); which are non-physical Light / Essence; will feel better. With every comedown you feel WORSE and the next "high" is always LOWER. The only permanent solution is to learn how to use your will-power, not only so you "don't take drugs", including pharmaceutical ones, but primarily to water the vast spiritual desert inside every one of us and fulfill the very reason for our existence. |
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Thanks for clarification. I most assuredly do believe herbs and plants have physical medicinal properties, and have been used successfully in that capacity for thousands of years.
While you're watering the vast spiritual desert within yourself, the pathological, perverted megalomaniacs destroy the planet.
I believe this world to be a trial, with those who try to do good getting it in the neck, and those who serve Moloch, Yah-Bul-On, Mammon, Hecate etc. run the world, courtesy of Satan.
_________________
'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7. |
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Andrew.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Thanks for clarification. I most assuredly do believe herbs and plants have physical medicinal properties, and have been used successfully in that capacity for thousands of years. |
Yes I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that there is no need to take them as medicine if you just keep a healthy diet etc. It does start a downward spiral as we can see in history using them as a medicine which has lead to further confusion.
| Quote: | While you're watering the vast spiritual desert within yourself, the pathological, perverted megalomaniacs destroy the planet.
I believe this world to be a trial, with those who try to do good getting it in the neck, and those who serve Moloch, Yah-Bul-On, Mammon, Hecate etc. run the world, courtesy of Satan.
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Yes I agree.
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(Just know that they cannot possibly win) spiritually all is well, when aligned to Godly ways “The New Song” Which does include the physical Laws that we should keep.
Most if not all of them will perish by mutual slaughter, because they in there confusion will not return to true Law and order of thier own free will. |
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TonyGosling
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Husq
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Andrew.
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Posts: 1518
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| Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Keep a healthy diet etc and you wont get it in the first place, or put junk into the environment; so young children don't have it passed on to them by parents or the environment before they have even had much exposure to it. Not forgetting other junk they put into their bodies at an early age.
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Side effects (marketing ploy) are not side effects they are just effects and it can only get worse. |
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