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Justin
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 Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Jay Ref - stop being so bloody smug and half-witted and have a look at my post under 'The Gathering Storm'. See the sort of people who have influence at the White House.
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Jay Ref
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin wrote: | | Jay Ref - stop being so bloody smug and half-witted and have a look at my post under 'The Gathering Storm'. See the sort of people who have influence at the White House. |
no.
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Justin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'm asking you again, as a human being and who obviously detests and abhors the sight of dead mutilated children as much as I do, PLEASE HAVE A LOOK AT MY POST UNDER 'THE GATHERING STORM'.
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Last edited by Justin on Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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paul wright
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin wrote: | | I'm asking you again, as a human being and who obviously detests and abhors the sight of dead mutilated children as I do, PLEASE HAVE A LOOK AT MY POST UNDER 'THE GATHERING STORM'. |
Is he? and does he? I've not seen much evidence
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jomper
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Having read this entire thread so far it seems to me that Jay Ref is, or was, apparently posting and responding in the spirit of reasonable debate until he suggested that Mark Gobell find unbiased expert opinion "from an actual scientist who have no relation to the Truth Movement" to support his position.
Mark responded with a link to a piece by MIT's Professor Thomas Eagar explaining why the towers collapsed, which is here: http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/small/nova.htm This is an interestingly annotated article which is, or was, entirely relevant and pertinent to the discussion at that stage.
Unfortunately, Jay Ref could twice not get his browser to load the article - although it would appear that all the other contributors to this thread could, as can I. At that point I feel the discussion, regrettably, moved on from what should have become an important reference point.
I would like to encourage anyone who has not already done so and is interested in the Lord Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems at MIT's interpretation of the collapses of the Twin Towers to access that URL and consider the points being made there.
That URL, which does not fail for me at present, is once again: http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/small/nova.htm |
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Jay Ref
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jomper wrote: | Having read this entire thread so far it seems to me that Jay Ref is, or was, apparently posting and responding in the spirit of reasonable debate until he suggested that Mark Gobell find unbiased expert opinion "from an actual scientist who have no relation to the Truth Movement" to support his position.
Mark responded with a link to a piece by MIT's Professor Thomas Eagar explaining why the towers collapsed, which is here: http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/small/nova.htm This is an interestingly annotated article which is, or was, entirely relevant and pertinent to the discussion at that stage.
Unfortunately, Jay Ref could twice not get his browser to load the article - although it would appear that all the other contributors to this thread could, as can I. At that point I feel the discussion, regrettably, moved on from what should have become an important reference point.
I would like to encourage anyone who has not already done so and is interested in the Lord Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems at MIT's interpretation of the collapses of the Twin Towers to access that URL and consider the points being made there.
That URL, which does not fail for me at present, is once again: http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/small/nova.htm |
That link still does not work from my location. (I'm in the US) Perhaps you can just cut/paste the relevant parts? You know, where the Lord Professor of Materials Engineering says that it was a controlled demo done by an evil NWO/ZOG entity...??
Anything less seems quite irrelevant at this point...
-z
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Justin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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Location: Cumbria / Yorkshire Dales
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Please Jay Ref, we are waiting to hear what you have to say about this - you being an American who supports the official story of 9/11 and all that. Come on, I hear a drum roll, are you going to respond?
| Quote: | Jay Ref,
You have all the answers so you tell us. So why won't you comment about this appalling mindset that is clearly influencing the White House/ NeoCon Administration? Why do you refuse to engage in dialogue here? Could it be you might actually agree with us....now that would never do, would it?
Please comment about this - I'm asking you politely:
Quote:
Lobbying for Armageddon
By Sarah Posner Posted August 3, 2006.
In a perfect world, a reporter at last week's press conference with George Bush and Tony Blair would have asked Bush, in the presence of his principal European ally, if he believes the European Union is the Antichrist.
Although it sounds like the kind of Pat Robertson lunacy that makes even the wingnuts run for the nearest exit, it's a question Bush should be forced to answer. Bush and other leading Republicans have lined up behind a growing movement of Christian Zionists for whom a European Antichrist figures prominently in an end-times scenario. So they should be forced to explain to the rest of us why they're courting the votes of people who believe our allies are evil incarnate. Could it be that the central requirement for their breathlessly anticipated Armageddon -- that the United States confront Iran -- happens to dovetail so nicely with the neoconservative war agenda?
At the center of it all is Pastor John Hagee, a popular televangelist who leads the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas. While Hagee has long prophesized about the end times, he ratcheted up his rhetoric this year with the publication of his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," in which he argues that a confrontation with Iran is a necessary precondition for Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ. In the best-selling book, Hagee insists that the United States must join Israel in a preemptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West. Shortly after the book's publication, he launched Christians United for Israel (CUFI), which, as the Christian version of the powerful American Israel Public Affairs Committee, he said would cause "a political earthquake."
At CUFI's kick-off banquet at the Washington Hilton, attended by over 3,500 members, Republican support for both Hagee's effort and his drumbeat for war with Iran were on full view. Republican National Committee Chair Ken Mehlman told the group that "no regime is more central to the global jihad" than Iran. Just two days before, Newt Gingrich and John McCain made the rounds of the Sunday talk shows to sound the same message, leading Benny Elon, a member of the Israeli Knesset, to comment to the Jerusalem Post that their remarks originated with Hagee. Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback also addressed the group, and Bush sent words of support to the gathering. Republicans, and even some Democrats, spoke at CUFI events to show their "support for Israel." But while public and media attention was on the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, Hagee's focus continued to be on Iran.
While the crisis at the Israel-Lebanon border drew more mainstream media attention to CUFI's activities, Hagee's supporters have long known that leading Republicans are listening. Rabbi Daniel Lapin, a prominent Jewish ally of the evangelical right (and friend of Jack Abramoff) has said that Hagee "without question, yes, absolutely" has the ear of the White House. Hagee's annual Night to Honor Israel at his church has drawn prominent Republicans, including Tom DeLay, who was the keynote speaker in 2002.
Although Republicans would never admit it -- they claim their support for Christian Zionists like Hagee is based on their own support for Israel -- it is clear that they know they need the votes of this constituency to win. In the same way that Karl Rove courted conservative evangelicals in 2004 by appealing to their homophobia, Republican campaign rhetoric for 2006 and 2008 has already shown signs of playing to voters who have been hearing hype for a war with Iran for months -- at church.
While Washington insiders wonder what it means when Republicans like Mehlman and presidential aspirants Gingrich and McCain finger Iran as the central player in an epic clash of civilizations, Hagee already has spent months mobilizing the shock troops in support of another war. As diplomats, experts and pundits debate how many years Iran will need to develop a viable nuclear weapon, Hagee says the mullahs already possess the means to destroy Israel and America. And although Bush insists that diplomatic options are still on the table, Hagee has dismissed * diplomacy and primed his followers for a conflagration.
Hagee wields "a very large megaphone" that reaches "a very large group of people," said Rabbi James Rudin of the American Jewish Committee, who has studied the Christian right for 30 years. With CUFI, the pastor has exponentially expanded the reach of his megaphone beyond his television audience. Thanks to the viral marketing made possible by the hundreds of evangelical leaders who have signed on to his new organization, his warmongering has rippled through megachurches across America for months. Hagee calls pastors "the spiritual generals of America," an appropriate phrase given his reliance on them to rally their troops behind his message.
The CUFI board of directors includes the Rev. Jerry Falwell, former Republican presidential candidate and religious right activist Gary Bauer, and George Morrison, pastor of the 8,000-member Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, Colo., and chairman of the board of Promise Keepers. Rod Parsley, the Ohio televangelist who is rapidly becoming a major political player in the Christian right, signed on to be a regional director.
For Hagee's new project, his influence in Washington is probably less important than his influence over his audience. With the clout of his listeners, he can serve Bush administration hawks by firing up grassroots support for a military strike against Iran. Over 700,000 people purchased his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," and countless more have heard him promote it on Christian radio and television programming. Dramatic, doomsday advertising has been heard by listeners of Christian media as well as on Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly's radio programs. The pages of "Jerusalem Countdown" provide a peculiar mix of biblical prophecy, purported inside information from Israeli government officials and a mixed-up, pared-down lesson in nuclear physics.
"I wrote this book in April 2005, and when people read it, they will think I wrote it late last night after the FOX News report," says the author without a trace of irony. "It's that close to where we are and beyond."
Hagee speaks simultaneously to two audiences about Iran's nuclear capabilities: one that fears a terrorist attack by Iran and another that embraces a biblically mandated apocalypse. To impress the fearful, he mimics Bush's deceptions about Iraq's capacity to attack the United States with weapons of mass destruction, Condoleezza Rice's warnings of mushroom clouds, and Dick Cheney's dissembling about an alliance between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida. Comparing Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Hitler, Hagee argues that Iran's development of nuclear weapons must be stopped to protect America and Israel from a nuclear attack. Preying on legitimate worries about terrorism, and invoking 9/11, he vividly describes a supposed Iranian-led plan to simultaneously explode nuclear suitcase bombs in seven American cities, or to use an electromagnetic pulse device to create "an American Hiroshima."
When addressing audiences receptive to Scriptural prophecy, however, Hagee welcomes the coming confrontation. He argues that a strike against Iran will cause Arab nations to unite under Russia's leadership, as outlined in chapters 38 and 39 of the Book of Ezekiel, leading to an "inferno [that] will explode across the Middle East, plunging the world toward Armageddon." In Hagee's telling, Israel has no choice but to strike at Iran's nuclear facilities, with or without America's help. The strike will provoke Russia -- which wants Persian Gulf oil -- to lead an army of Arab nations against Israel. Then God will wipe out all but one-sixth of the Russian-led army, as the world watches "with shock and awe," he says, lending either a divine quality to the Bush administration phrase or a Bush-like quality to God's wrath.
But Hagee doesn't stop there. He adds that Ezekiel predicts fire "upon those who live in security in the coastlands." From this sentence, he concludes that there will be judgment upon all who stood by while the Russian-led force invaded Israel, and issues a stark warning to the United States to intervene: "Could it be that America, who refuses to defend Israel from the Russian invasion, will experience nuclear warfare on our east and west coasts?" He says yes, citing Genesis 12:3, in which God said to Israel: "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you."
To fill the power vacuum left by God's decimation of the Russian army, the Antichrist -- the head of the EU -- will rule "a one-world government, a one-world currency and a one-world religion" for three and a half years. (Hagee adds that "one need only be a casual observer of current events to see that all three of these things are coming into reality." The "demonic world leader" will then be confronted by a false prophet, identified by Hagee as China, at Armageddon, the Mount of Megiddo in Israel. As they prepare for the final battle, Jesus will return on a white horse and cast both villains -- and presumably any nonbelievers -- into a "lake of fire burning with brimstone," thus marking the beginning of his millennial reign.
Hagee doesn't fear a nuclear conflagration, but rather God's wrath for standing by as Iran executes its supposed plot to destroy Israel. A nuclear confrontation between America and Iran, which he says is foretold in the Book of Jeremiah, will not lead to the end of the world, but rather to God's renewal of the Garden of Eden. But Hagee is ultimately less concerned with the fate of Israel or the Jews than with a theocratic Christian right agenda. When Jesus returns for his millennial reign, he tells his television audience, "the righteous are going to rule the nations of the earth When Jesus Christ comes back, he's not going to ask the ACLU if it's all right to pray, he's not going to ask the churches if they can ordain pedophile bishops and priests, he's not going to ask if it's all right to put the Ten Commandments in the statehouses. He's not going to endorse abortion, he's going to run the world by the word of God The world will never end. It's going to become a Garden of Eden, and Christ is going to rule it."
Sarah Posner has covered the religious right for The American Prospect, The Gadflyer, and AlterNet. This article is adapted from "Pastor Strangelove," which appeared in the June 2006 issue of The American Prospect. |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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See, JREF, I am having trouble understanding not that there were machine rooms in the WTC towers but how you would explain that all the concrete that is (a) disintegrating into fine dust and (b) being thrown outwards away from the building as it collapses would cause air to compress further down in the building.
It doesn't make sense to me. Surely the air would dissipate as the building collapses.
Your logic doesn't make sense to me. |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | See, JREF, I am having trouble understanding not that there were machine rooms in the WTC towers but how you would explain that all the concrete that is (a) disintegrating into fine dust and (b) being thrown outwards away from the building as it collapses would cause air to compress further down in the building.
It doesn't make sense to me. Surely the air would dissipate as the building collapses.
Your logic doesn't make sense to me. |
Oh come come dear scubadiver. One must get ones facts about right if one is to mingle with the big boys as it were.
Those buildings were entirly hollow, to be sure. The floors were removed at the last minute, i do believe. WHY YES that is precisely why FEMA were in New York the day before you see? All the floors, walls, office equipment, elevators AND VENTS were extracted by the government in an entirely innocent fashion. Why even the central steel columns were extracted. This is why they do not feature in the official reports. Now please, have a cup of tea and forget all this la de da evidence and whatever.
THERES A WAR ON!!!
TALLYHO!!!!!!
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scubadiver
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | scubadiver wrote: | See, JREF, I am having trouble understanding not that there were machine rooms in the WTC towers but how you would explain that all the concrete that is (a) disintegrating into fine dust and (b) being thrown outwards away from the building as it collapses would cause air to compress further down in the building.
It doesn't make sense to me. Surely the air would dissipate as the building collapses.
Your logic doesn't make sense to me. |
Oh come come dear scubadiver. One must get ones facts about right if one is to mingle with the big boys as it were.
Those buildings were entirly hollow, to be sure. The floors were removed at the last minute, i do believe. WHY YES that is precisely why FEMA were in New York the day before you see? All the floors, walls, office equipment, elevators AND VENTS were extracted by the government in an entirely innocent fashion. Why even the central steel columns were extracted. This is why they do not feature in the official reports. Now please, have a cup of tea and forget all this la de da evidence and whatever.
THERES A WAR ON!!!
TALLYHO!!!!!! |
OK, I've got the message! |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | See, JREF, I am having trouble understanding not that there were machine rooms in the WTC towers but how you would explain that all the concrete that is (a) disintegrating into fine dust and (b) being thrown outwards away from the building as it collapses would cause air to compress further down in the building.
It doesn't make sense to me. Surely the air would dissipate as the building collapses.
Your logic doesn't make sense to me. |
what is it you think was in the WTC towers? Bare concrete? There was tonnes and tonnes of drywall...don't you think some of that dust may have been from that source?
While a great deal of material was thrown outwards the most massive amount was heading straight down causing the floor by floor disintegration. If most material was thrown to the sides as you say the towers would not have collapsed completely.
Go ask an expert if you don't believe me...of course the air pressure would dissipate....it would blow out of every opening...just like it shows in that video.
My logic doesn't make sense to you because you have no training in logic. You either don't know what Occam's razor is, or don't care as you never feel the need to heed it. Logic would be a fine subject for you to study. At least it'd be better than wasting your time with the troothers and loosers.
-z
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"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Pikey
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Same old same old. Cherry picked facts and lies. |
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Wonder why it sounded like a missile to some people?
When will you ever hear an aircraft travelling at 500mph?
When they're at 40000ft? Do things sound the same at 40000ft as they do 400ft?
No.
Well that's one mystery solved
Oh, and how many people have actually heard a missile? How do they know what a missile sounds like? |
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gypsum
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Any idea when we're gonna see some video evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon JP? 5 years is too long to wait!! |
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| gypsum wrote: | | Any idea when we're gonna see some video evidence of a plane hitting the pentagon JP? 5 years is too long to wait!! |
Why does everything have to be caught on video to be true?
In my town about a year ago, some men stole a JCB, drove it round the corner, ram raided a bank, and stole the cash machine. None of this was caught on CCTV, despite the town being generously covered with cameras. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. |
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gypsum
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Why does everything have to be caught on video to be true?
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Please point out to me where I said it wasn't true.
| Quote: |
In my town about a year ago, some men stole a JCB, drove it round the corner, ram raided a bank, and stole the cash machine. None of this was caught on CCTV, despite the town being generously covered with cameras. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. |
Are you trying to suggest that it wasn't caught on ANY cameras?? You've GOT to be kidding me  (the pentagon that is).
http://www.infowars.net/articles/may2006/170506Pentagon_videos.htm |
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| gypsum wrote: | | Quote: |
Why does everything have to be caught on video to be true?
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Please point out to me where I said it wasn't true.
| Quote: |
In my town about a year ago, some men stole a JCB, drove it round the corner, ram raided a bank, and stole the cash machine. None of this was caught on CCTV, despite the town being generously covered with cameras. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. |
Are you trying to suggest that it wasn't caught on ANY cameras?? You've GOT to be kidding me (the pentagon that is).
http://www.infowars.net/articles/may2006/170506Pentagon_videos.htm |
The parking gate camera shows the Pentagon being struck. It's not high quality. Why would you expect any other camera to be of any better quality? CCTV is not designed to capture high speed objects. They run at lower frame rates to save on recording space. Even if they ran at a full 25 frames per second they'd have difficulty capturing a 500mph object. And why would other people's security cameras be pointing at the Pentagon? They tend to record people's own property, not other people's. |
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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Cameras that are monitored by security guards often don't have tapes, because they have security guards to respond to intruders or whatever. Why would the Pentagon want to reveal the location of its cameras and security net to the public?
The rest of the tapes are the property of the person who owns the cameras that recorded them. The government cannot release them even if they wanted to, they don't belong to them. |
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gypsum
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The parking gate camera shows the Pentagon being struck. |
Tell me honestly, if you had not been told by anyone that a boeing had crashed into the pentagon, and you watched that video, would you believe that one had? |
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Johnny Pixels
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Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| gypsum wrote: | | Quote: |
The parking gate camera shows the Pentagon being struck. |
Tell me honestly, if you had not been told by anyone that a boeing had crashed into the pentagon, and you watched that video, would you believe that one had? |
The video does not definitively prove a Boeing 757 specifically no, but it does show it is not a missile, because the object is much much too large. A missile would not have shown up at all.
That only leaves doubt as to the type of large object. It wasn't a truck, because trucks don't move that fast, and there were no truck remains found. It wasn't a bomb, because bombs don't fly horizontally across the ground. It could have been some kind of aircraft. There was aircraft wreckage found. A Boeing 757 was hijacked earlier in the day, and flown to that location. The wreckage was found to be that of a 757, and more specifically, the 757 that had been hijacked.
The video alone is not conclusive, but then we don't rely on a single source of evidence to draw conclusions from. |
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