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TimmyG
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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 Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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JREF. any evidence is debatable. but you're attitude is that it doesn't exist at all, which it does.
how can you prove that the squibs at the twin towers were compressed air from air vents?
the reason the eye witness reports may carry more significance that you might expect is that the recordings of firefighters reporting on them were withheld from the public until pressure from the victims families got them released. on the day reporters were saying that they thought cars with bombs in contributed to the collapse etc... strange how these reports seemed to disappear after the 11th. this suspicious activity is backed up by the speed and symetry of the collapse.. as well as the very low probability that such a collapse would take place
who decided that the indian times report of the atta transfer was a fabrication? why was mahmoud ahmed fired?
there is much evidence that wtc7 was demolished in the form of video footage showing a collapse identical to that of a building brought down in a controlled demolition. i've seen your myths website try and explain the squibs as a trick of the light on the video. pathetic.
by your reasoning nothing exists apart from what the government and its related organisations tells us does. your argument is based on 'the governement haven't admitted anything. so they weren't involved'
NISTs own hypothesis for the collapse of wtc7 has a self admitted 'low probability of occurance'.. anyone presented with the video of wtc7 collapsing for the first time would observe a controlled demo. the fact our mainstream media won't discuss the remarkable, unexplained collapse of this building is fascinating. the fact you can't see how anyone would believe it is a demo says a lot about your sense of reasoning. you decide what the truth is first, then defend it agressively no matter what. not critical, independent thinking in anyway.
| Quote: | | No. I want you to show me the evidence that proves me wrong about my acceptance of the OS. |
i don't know how i can do this since you don't think for yourself.
heres a few things to consider if you beleive the official story:
the FBI have no hard evidence that bin laden organised it.
John O'niel was killed on 9/11. he had been investigating bin laden and alkaeda and was told to stop.
an 'unidentified 30 year old male in a suit' apparently handed a passport of one of the hijackers to a cop on the street. we are told a passport fell out the plane onto the street and was found during the crisis. you believe this without question. if the 9/11 report said that a book entitled 'how we plan to fly planes into the wtc without any help from the US government - O. B. Laden' fell out of the plane and was magically found, i expect you would accept it as the truth.
I am actually prepared to accept that there could have been islamic terrorists on the flights, attempting to fly the planes into the wtc (if this is the case i imagine they would be remote controlled to ensure success though). I can accept that people involved may actually be terrorists thinking they were working for someone else. but i don't accept that the us government had no prior knowledge or involvement in what happened.
i don't see how that is wacky in anyway.
i can't explain what happened. but there are too many strange co-incidences for it not to be an inside job
please note i am talking about you personally here. i am not grouping you with all people who don't believe what I believe.. unlike yourself
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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scar
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Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Dont Feed Them
_________________
Positive...energy...activates...constant...elevation. (Gravediggaz) |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| scar wrote: | | Dont Feed Them |
HAAAA HAA
Great stuff.
Hey JJ. Why dont you p1ss off back to where you're wanted ad get one of your apologist 'friends' to shave your back or something.
_________________
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | | JREF. any evidence is debatable. but you're attitude is that it doesn't exist at all, which it does. |
Good, show it. Better yet call the media outlets and show them so they can show the whole world!
| Quote: |
how can you prove that the squibs at the twin towers were compressed air from air vents? |
Easy, all buildings have machine rooms...all buildings have vents to the outside air. It is logical that such a vent would expel air if the pressure inside is greater than outside. Also demolition squibs go off and collapse begins...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated!! What would be the point of a demo squib? To initiate a collapse! Also CDI the world's leading experts in CD have laughed at the CD theory.
| Quote: |
the reason the eye witness reports may carry more significance that you might expect is that the recordings of firefighters reporting on them were withheld from the public until pressure from the victims families got them released. on the day reporters were saying that they thought cars with bombs in contributed to the collapse etc... strange how these reports seemed to disappear after the 11th. this suspicious activity is backed up by the speed and symetry of the collapse.. as well as the very low probability that such a collapse would take place |
You do know that there are no structural engineers or demolition experts anywhere in the world who agree with you....you know that right?
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who decided that the indian times report of the atta transfer was a fabrication? why was mahmoud ahmed fired? |
What does it matter? I already told folks here that UBL admitted that he did it!! Yet I am then told that UBL is a CIA stooge and can't be trusted. If I provide accurate sourced info on the Indian Intel fabrication you won't accept it anyway. Moving goalposts is a favorite activity around here.
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there is much evidence that wtc7 was demolished in the form of video footage showing a collapse identical to that of a building brought down in a controlled demolition. i've seen your myths website try and explain the squibs as a trick of the light on the video. pathetic. |
The only thing remotely "identical" is that it fell down. Tell me this, how many non-CD building collapses have you seen? If the answer is "zero" other than WTC 1,2, and 7 then how would you know what to look for that would differentiate one from another? You do know that not one structural engineer or CD expert agrees with you right? Why do you think you are right and they are wrong?
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by your reasoning nothing exists apart from what the government and its related organisations tells us does. your argument is based on 'the governement haven't admitted anything. so they weren't involved' |
This is untrue. Evidence can quite easily exist independent of any single source.
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NISTs own hypothesis for the collapse of wtc7 has a self admitted 'low probability of occurance'.. anyone presented with the video of wtc7 collapsing for the first time would observe a controlled demo. |
You do know that no structural engineers agree with your assessment right? Anyone may be able to see anything...people saw faces of demons in the dust cloud! But does a structural engineer or CD expert "see" a CD in the video of WTC7? Not one does.
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the fact our mainstream media won't discuss the remarkable, unexplained collapse of this building is fascinating. |
Maybe they don't because it's not that remarkable. Perhaps if you can find a structural engineer... naw...forget it...you can't!
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the fact you can't see how anyone would believe it is a demo says a lot about your sense of reasoning. you decide what the truth is first, then defend it agressively no matter what. not critical, independent thinking in anyway. |
Wrong again....I see how people would see a building falling down as a CD because the only buildings anyone has ever seen falling down were controlled demos!! The only thing in common really was the law of gravity. CD's don't flatten nearby buildings. The collapses were not nearly so neat as you nuts keep saying they were.
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| Quote: | | No. I want you to show me the evidence that proves me wrong about my acceptance of the OS. |
i don't know how i can do this since you don't think for yourself. |
Gee, if I didn't think for myself I'd be likely to believe any c*** and bull story....the fact that I ask for evidence is itself evidence that I will consider changing my mind if the evidence warrants...BTW...it doesn't!
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heres a few things to consider if you beleive the official story:
the FBI have no hard evidence that bin laden organised it. |
Untrue. UBL himself admitted it. The hijackers made "martyr" videos that admitted it. The FBI doesn't make war...similarly the FBI never had Hitler on it's most wanted list.
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John O'niel was killed on 9/11. he had been investigating bin laden and alkaeda and was told to stop. |
WKJON? is fictional. See the last scene for more info.
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an 'unidentified 30 year old male in a suit' apparently handed a passport of one of the hijackers to a cop on the street. we are told a passport fell out the plane onto the street and was found during the crisis. you believe this without question. |
Well, there are many 30 year old men in suits in lower Manhattan on a tuesday morning. Since seat cushions, life vests, and other perishable items were found from the aircraft I'd say it's clearly not impossible for such a thing to survive intact.
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if the 9/11 report said that a book entitled 'how we plan to fly planes into the wtc without any help from the US government - O. B. Laden' fell out of the plane and was magically found, i expect you would accept it as the truth. |
It would make more sense than the theories I've heard here!
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I am actually prepared to accept that there could have been islamic terrorists on the flights, |
Charitable of you old boy...
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attempting to fly the planes into the wtc (if this is the case i imagine they would be remote controlled to ensure success though). |
Now you're going loopy again. Have you ever heard of William of Ockham?
| Quote: | | if one can explain a phenomenon without assuming this or that hypothetical entity, there is no ground for assuming it. That is, one should always opt for an explanation in terms of the fewest possible number of causes, factors, or variables. |
Sounds logical no?
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I can accept that people involved may actually be terrorists thinking they were working for someone else. but i don't accept that the us government had no prior knowledge or involvement in what happened.
i don't see how that is wacky in anyway. |
It's wacky because you are making an assumption without evidence. I'd be like the police dragging you off the street and charging you with murder...then telling you to prove you didn't.
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i can't explain what happened. but there are too many strange co-incidences for it not to be an inside job |
Coincidences are not evidence of anything. Anyone ever born has been a benificiary of countless coincidences. You can find coincidences everywhere after the fact if you look hard enough.
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please note i am talking about you personally here. i am not grouping you with all people who don't believe what I believe.. unlike yourself |
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If I claimed my coffee was hot you'd be expected to believe me. If I claimed a fairy was swimming in my coffee you'd damned well need to see it to believe it!
You CTers are making the extraordinary claim that our government murdered 3,000 Americans...it's not exactly an ordinary claim...it requires extraordinary evidence for me to take seriously...CTers offer NO EVIDENCE.
Unless you lot come up with something better the movement is done. Unless that is you're looking to start a Bohemian Grove of the poor and stupid.
-z
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | scar wrote: | | Dont Feed Them |
HAAAA HAA
Great stuff.
Hey JJ. Why dont you p1ss off back to where you're wanted ad get one of your apologist 'friends' to shave your back or something. |
My 14 year old is less childish than you are...and you're an "activist"?? You seem more like a slow teenager with a dearth of friends....
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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andyb
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: SW London
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref" wrote: | JREF. any evidence is debatable. but you're attitude is that it doesn't exist at all, which it does.
Good, show it. Better yet call the media outlets and show them so they can show the whole world!
how can you prove that the squibs at the twin towers were compressed air from air vents?
Easy, all buildings have machine rooms...all buildings have vents to the outside air. It is logical that such a vent would expel air if the pressure inside is greater than outside. Also demolition squibs go off and collapse begins...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated!! What would be the point of a demo squib? To initiate a collapse! Also CDI the world's leading experts in CD have laughed at the CD theory.
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Is this the same CDI who got given the contratc to clean up Ground Zero and the Oklahoma bombing. A company winning no bid contracts like that are hardly going to fight their paymasters. Jay Ref, you complain about our arguments but then shoot yourself in the foot all the time. Keep going.
_________________
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King |
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Eckyboy
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Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 162
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't understand you Jay Ref. You accuse us of closing our minds yet you are just as guilty of it as anyone. I try to be fair and just. I like to look at both sides of the argument weigh up the evidence and then try and make an informed opinion. It is from this that I believe 911 was an inside job. You are the opposite but the evidence you have quoted does not convince me are there any other examples you can provide? |
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TimmyG
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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JREF.
fukcing hell.
you have contricticted yourself many times.
your arguement is so poor i have no energy left to converse with you.
john o neil was a real person you moron. not a fictional character.
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Easy, all buildings have machine rooms...all buildings have vents to the outside air. It is logical that such a vent would expel air if the pressure inside is greater than outside. Also demolition squibs go off and collapse begins...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated!! What would be the point of a demo squib? To initiate a collapse! Also CDI the world's leading experts in CD have laughed at the CD theory. |
this is no more proof than the controlled demo theory. IT IS A THEORY. YOU HAvE A FUKCING THEORY JUST LIKE WE DO. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!!!?!!?!!
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Quote:
if the 9/11 report said that a book entitled 'how we plan to fly planes into the wtc without any help from the US government - O. B. Laden' fell out of the plane and was magically found, i expect you would accept it as the truth.
It would make more sense than the theories I've heard here!
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what the * does that mean?! i'm not talking about any theories you might have found here. i'm talking about WHAT I AM SAYING TO YOU
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Quote:
I can accept that people involved may actually be terrorists thinking they were working for someone else. but i don't accept that the us government had no prior knowledge or involvement in what happened.
i don't see how that is wacky in anyway.
It's wacky because you are making an assumption without evidence. |
i'm not assuming anything. this is a potential theory. further investigation is required. i can see how your summary of 'us CT's' has been based on th e assumptions of Loose Change, which i agree in places, are lazily drawn.
unfortunately the government are not accountable to anyone so the likelyhood we will suceed in having these questions answered and the truth come out, is small. this doesn't mean i'm going to sit back and become brainwashed
JREF. if anyone is bonkers here, its you. I would like you to answer one last question for me.
Do you not think that the collapse of WTC7 looks like, in any way, a controlled demolition?
I can honestly say that i would like someone to convince me it wasn't an inside job. it would mean i would have a lot more spare time. but so far noone and nothing i've seen can do this.. your words only support the 'GREAT CONSPIRACY' as you put it.
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act"
Last edited by TimmyG on Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| andyb wrote: | | Jay Ref" wrote: | JREF. any evidence is debatable. but you're attitude is that it doesn't exist at all, which it does.
Good, show it. Better yet call the media outlets and show them so they can show the whole world!
how can you prove that the squibs at the twin towers were compressed air from air vents?
Easy, all buildings have machine rooms...all buildings have vents to the outside air. It is logical that such a vent would expel air if the pressure inside is greater than outside. Also demolition squibs go off and collapse begins...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated!! What would be the point of a demo squib? To initiate a collapse! Also CDI the world's leading experts in CD have laughed at the CD theory.
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Is this the same CDI who got given the contratc to clean up Ground Zero and the Oklahoma bombing. A company winning no bid contracts like that are hardly going to fight their paymasters. Jay Ref, you complain about our arguments but then shoot yourself in the foot all the time. Keep going. |
What part of "World's Leading" did you not understand? But please, if you can find a company anywhere in the world that does controlled demos, call them and ask them if 9/11 is a CD. Or is every structural engineer and demolition expert in the world inonit?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Eckyboy wrote: | | I don't understand you Jay Ref. You accuse us of closing our minds yet you are just as guilty of it as anyone. I try to be fair and just. I like to look at both sides of the argument weigh up the evidence and then try and make an informed opinion. It is from this that I believe 911 was an inside job. You are the opposite but the evidence you have quoted does not convince me are there any other examples you can provide? |
That you don't understand me does not surprise me...after all, I haven't had much luck teaching my cat calculus either...
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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TimmyG
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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so what you are saying is that the majority of people on this forum are mental, paranoid, reptoid believing, tin foil hat wearing, deluded cats?
and i sing for the spice girls?
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | JREF.
fukcing hell.
you have contricticted yourself many times.
your arguement is so poor i have no energy left to converse with you.
john o neil was a real person you moron. not a fictional character. |
Ad-hominum attacks coupled with poor reading comprehension are what I expect from you lot. Please go back and re-read if your education level will allow and you will see that I was speaking of the film "WKJON?" not the man, the movie. It is a fictionalized account. Sheesh!
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Easy, all buildings have machine rooms...all buildings have vents to the outside air. It is logical that such a vent would expel air if the pressure inside is greater than outside. Also demolition squibs go off and collapse begins...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated!! What would be the point of a demo squib? To initiate a collapse! Also CDI the world's leading experts in CD have laughed at the CD theory. |
this is no more proof than the controlled demo theory. IT IS A THEORY. YOU HAvE A FUKCING THEORY JUST LIKE WE DO. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!!!?!!?!! |
Funny that. But all theories are not equal. My theory posits the existance of vents and machine rooms in buildings....(not very exciting though is it?) ...and then your theory posits the existance of a massive government conspiracy guilty of placing demo charges in the building. (wow, exciting stuff no!!??)
My theory requires: Vents and machine rooms to exist,..and air pressure.. :yawn: No controversy there I'd guess...even you would have to agree that 1. the buildings had vents and machine rooms...and 2. the collapse pushed air ahead of it.
Your theory requires:
- Expert demo techs working in secret.
- Explosives, det cord, blasting caps,..etc...
- Thousands of everyday people not noticing the demo techs.
- Drone planes to disguise the demolition.
- More techs to create the drone conversion.
- NORAD to "stand down"
- hundreds or more to keep their mouths shut. etc...etc...
That's just a partial list...there's also much to go wrong. The planes impacts could easily damage the detcords and primer connections. The demo charges might be found in the wreckage...and for what gain? To attack Iraq? By using Saudi patsies??
Insanity...that's the word for your theory.
It's clearly more fun than mine...but far less plausible.
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Quote:
if the 9/11 report said that a book entitled 'how we plan to fly planes into the wtc without any help from the US government - O. B. Laden' fell out of the plane and was magically found, i expect you would accept it as the truth.
It would make more sense than the theories I've heard here!
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what the * does that mean?! i'm not talking about any theories you might have found here. i'm talking about WHAT I AM SAYING TO YOU |
Okay, what you are saying to me makes less sense than finding such a publication lying unburnt in Mohammed Atta's gaping mouth. What passes for thought for you is nothing more than a daydream you can't wake up from.
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Quote:
I can accept that people involved may actually be terrorists thinking they were working for someone else. but i don't accept that the us government had no prior knowledge or involvement in what happened.
i don't see how that is wacky in anyway.
It's wacky because you are making an assumption without evidence. |
i'm not assuming anything. this is a potential theory. further investigation is required. i can see how your summary of 'us CT's' has been based on th e assumptions of Loose Change, which i agree in places, are lazily drawn.
unfortunately the government are not accountable to anyone so the likelyhood we will suceed in having these questions answered and the truth come out, is small. this doesn't mean i'm going to sit back and become brainwashed |
"Become"?? Too late for that I'm afraid. The government is accountable to the voters. Or perhaps you'd like to tell us your thoughts about Diebold? No doubt you subscribe to that theory as well eh?
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JREF. if anyone is bonkers here, its you. I would like you to answer one last question for me.
Do you not think that the collapse of WTC7 looks like, in any way, a controlled demolition? |
It fell down. Controlled demo's fall down. That's bout the end of the similarities I'm afraid.
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I can honestly say that i would like someone to convince me it wasn't an inside job. it would mean i would have a lot more spare time. but so far noone and nothing i've seen can do this.. your words only support the 'GREAT CONSPIRACY' as you put it. |
Is there anything to your warped mind that doesn't support the great conspiracy? Nope...didn't think so.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense
Last edited by Jay Ref on Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | so what you are saying is that the majority of people on this forum are mental, paranoid, reptoid believing, tin foil hat wearing, deluded cats?
and i sing for the spice girls? |
As a theory it's more plausible than the CT....and it has gads of evidence for it besides...
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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scar
Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Jay Rtf will always empty your feedbag and come back for more.
_________________
Positive...energy...activates...constant...elevation. (Gravediggaz)
Last edited by scar on Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TimmyG
Validated Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Please go back and re-read if your education level will allow and you will see that I was speaking of the film "WKJON?" not the man, the movie. It is a fictionalized account. Sheesh! |
hmmm. you see i mentioned this guy called John O'Neil, and i was talking about the person. you suddenly started talking about the film by someone else. which i haven't watched, and wasn't talking about.
| Quote: | It fell down. Controlled demo's fall down. That's bout the end of the similarities I'm afraid.
p |
so i expect you can provide us with a few other buildings which have fallen down in the same manner?
you don't find the kink or the squibs in anyway similar?
me being a deluded cat who sings for the spice girls is more plausable than wtc7 being demolished? hmm
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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TimmyG
Validated Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Quote:
who decided that the indian times report of the atta transfer was a fabrication? why was mahmoud ahmed fired?
What does it matter? I already told folks here that UBL admitted that he did it!! |
eh.. hang on.. hang on one second... ooh
your god aren't you? why didn't you say?? sorry god. i didn't realise it was you
i'm really sorry. you told me and i didn't believe you. sorry god
well if you told us!! well. jeez.. sorry guys.. sorry. close the forum. nothing to see here
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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scubadiver
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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JREF
what are your sources of irrefutable, independent, evidence that supports the official story.
You still haven't come with the goods. |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Listen guys, you're not going to get through to this apologist no matter what you say. Save your energy, seriously.
Have a look through his previous post list. There you'll see that when asked with questions that back him against he wall, and he can't parrot the answers from his debunk sites, he disappears completely.
This guy is NOT interested in debate. He WILL NOT examine evidence that we provide.
His only objective here is to cause a fuss, take up time and fuel his own sense of self-importance. Replying to this guys ranting nonsense is reeeealy tempting (he has said a whole rake of stuff i'd LOVE to answer) but it will get you nowhere.
Seriously, everyone have a look trough his previous posts. You'll also see how he arrived here ranting and insulting and calling people names, yet when the same is done to him he sits on his ivory tower and replies with hypocritical rubbish like this;
| Quote: |
Ad-hominum attacks coupled with poor reading comprehension are what I expect from you lot. |
Lets all stop wasting our breath on him, and when he answers to posts, resist the temptation to reply and simply ignore him.
Trust me, with his ego this will drive him mad. 
_________________
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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kbo234
Validated Poster
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 2017
Location: Croydon, Surrey
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: |
Have a look through his previous post list. There you'll see that when asked with questions that back him against he wall, and he can't parrot the answers from his debunk sites, he disappears completely.
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Absolutely correct. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | | Quote: | | Please go back and re-read if your education level will allow and you will see that I was speaking of the film "WKJON?" not the man, the movie. It is a fictionalized account. Sheesh! |
hmmm. you see i mentioned this guy called John O'Neil, and i was talking about the person. you suddenly started talking about the film by someone else. which i haven't watched, and wasn't talking about.
| Quote: | It fell down. Controlled demo's fall down. That's bout the end of the similarities I'm afraid.
p |
so i expect you can provide us with a few other buildings which have fallen down in the same manner? |
Sorry but I know of no other buildings which have had fuel-laden 767's flown into them in excess of 500mph. As for WTC7, I know of no other 50 story building clobbered by debris from a falling 110 story building.
Therefore the WTC collapses are unique. Nothing like them have ever before ocurred.
| Quote: |
you don't find the kink or the squibs in anyway similar?
me being a deluded cat who sings for the spice girls is more plausable than wtc7 being demolished? hmm |
Well you are the one who asked what I want...what I really, really want!? So yeah, using your level of evidence you become a Spice Girl.
As for your "squibs" I feel the need to repeat myself since you don't seem to have read my posts.
[ | Quote: | Previously posted by Jay Ref:
Funny that. But all theories are not equal. My theory posits the existance of vents and machine rooms in buildings....(not very exciting though is it?) ...and then your theory posits the existance of a massive government conspiracy guilty of placing demo charges in the building. (wow, exciting stuff no!!??)
My theory requires: Vents and machine rooms to exist,..and air pressure.. :yawn: No controversy there I'd guess...even you would have to agree that 1. the buildings had vents and machine rooms...and 2. the collapse pushed air ahead of it.
Your theory requires:
* Expert demo techs working in secret.
* Explosives, det cord, blasting caps,..etc...
* Thousands of everyday people not noticing the demo techs.
* Drone planes to disguise the demolition.
* More techs to create the drone conversion.
* NORAD to "stand down"
* hundreds or more to keep their mouths shut. etc...etc...
That's just a partial list...there's also much to go wrong. The planes impacts could easily damage the detcords and primer connections. The demo charges might be found in the wreckage...and for what gain? To attack Iraq? By using Saudi patsies??
Insanity...that's the word for your theory. |
I ask you again, what's more plausible? A building with vents and machine rooms?
Or a host of invisible demo techs planting tons of invisible explosives that leave no trace?
Well?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | Listen guys, you're not going to get through to this apologist no matter what you say. Save your energy, seriously.
Have a look through his previous post list. There you'll see that when asked with questions that back him against he wall, and he can't parrot the answers from his debunk sites, he disappears completely.
This guy is NOT interested in debate. He WILL NOT examine evidence that we provide.
His only objective here is to cause a fuss, take up time and fuel his own sense of self-importance. Replying to this guys ranting nonsense is reeeealy tempting (he has said a whole rake of stuff i'd LOVE to answer) but it will get you nowhere.
Seriously, everyone have a look trough his previous posts. You'll also see how he arrived here ranting and insulting and calling people names, yet when the same is done to him he sits on his ivory tower and replies with hypocritical rubbish like this;
| Quote: |
Ad-hominum attacks coupled with poor reading comprehension are what I expect from you lot. |
Lets all stop wasting our breath on him, and when he answers to posts, resist the temptation to reply and simply ignore him.
Trust me, with his ego this will drive him mad. |
Hey man make up your mind! I thought you were enjoying my posts!! You have told me numerous times to "keep it up"...now you seem to have turned on me!!??
Gee, and I thought you were my bud. 
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | JREF
what are your sources of irrefutable, independent, evidence that supports the official story.
You still haven't come with the goods. |
Well then you obviously have not really read the 9/11 commission report. Before you laugh and call it a single source; you may wish to read the footnotes. The report has multiple sources. The sources tie in the actions of Ramzi Yousef in the first WTC bombing with UBL, and Khalid Sheikh Muhammed. These guys collaborated on many attacks...the last and most ambitious being 9/11.
| Quote: | From 9/11 Commission Staff Statement No. 16:
Plot Overview
Origins of the 9/11 attacks
The idea for the September 11 attacks appears to have originated with a veteran jihadist named Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM). A Kuwaiti from the Baluchistan region of Pakistan, KSM grew up in a religious family and claims to have joined the Muslim Brotherhood at the age of 16. After attending college in the United States, he went to Afghanistan to participate in the anti-Soviet jihad. Following the war, he helped run a non-governmental organization in Pakistan assisting the Afghan mujahidin.
KSM first came to the attention of U.S. authorities as a result of the terrorist activity of his nephew Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing. KSM provided a small amount of funding for that attack. The following year, he joined Yousef in the Philippines to plan what would become known as the “Bojinka” operation, the intended bombing of 12 U.S. commercial jets over the Pacific in a two-day period. That plot unraveled, however, when the Philippine authorities discovered Yousef’s bomb-making equipment in Manila in January 1995. During the course of 1995, Yousef and two of his co-conspirators in the Bojinka plot were arrested overseas and were brought to the United States for trial, but KSM managed to elude capture following his January 1996 indictment for his role in the plot.
By the middle of 1996, according to his account, KSM was back in Afghanistan. He had met Usama Bin Ladin there in the 1980s. Now, in mid-1996, KSM sought to renew that acquaintance, at a point when Bin Ladin had just moved to Afghanistan from the Sudan. At a meeting with Bin Ladin and Mohamed Atef, al Qaeda’s Chief of Operations, KSM presented several ideas for attacks against the United States. One of the operations he pitched, according to KSM, was a scaled-up version of what would become the attacks of September 11. Bin Ladin listened, but did not yet commit himself.
Bin Ladin approves the plan
According to KSM, the 1998 East Africa embassy bombings demonstrated to him that Bin Ladin was willing to attack the United States. In early 1999, Bin Ladin summoned KSM to Kandahar to tell him that his proposal to use aircraft as weapons now had al Qaeda’s full support. KSM met again with Bin Ladin and Atef at Kandahar in the spring of 1999 to develop an initial list of targets. The list included the White House and the Pentagon, which Bin Ladin wanted; the U.S. Capitol; and the World Trade Center, a target favored by KSM.
Bin Ladin quickly provided KSM with four potential suicide operatives: Nawaf al Hazmi, Khalid al Mihdhar, Walid Muhammad Salih bin Attash, also known as Khallad, and Abu Bara al Taizi. Hazmi and Mihdhar were both Saudi nationals—although Mihdhar was actually of Yemeni origin—and experienced mujahidin, having fought in Bosnia together. They were so eager to participate in attacks against the United States that they already held U.S. visas. Khallad and Abu Bara, being Yemeni nationals, would have trouble getting U.S. visas compared to Saudis. Therefore, KSM decided to split the operation into two parts. Hazmi and Mihdhar would go to the United States, and the Yemeni operatives would go to Southeast Asia to carry out a smaller version of the Bojinka plot.
In the fall of 1999, training for the attacks began. Hazmi, Mihdhar, Khallad, and Abu Bara participated in an elite training course at the Mes Aynak camp in Afghanistan. Afterward, KSM taught three of these operatives basic English words and phrases and showed them how to read a phone book, make travel reservations, use the Internet, and encode communications. They also used flight simulator computer games and analyzed airline schedules to figure out flights that would be in the air at the same time. Kuala Lumpur
Following the training, all four operatives for the operation traveled to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Khallad and Abu Bara were directed to study airport security and conduct surveillance on U.S. carriers, and Hazmi and Mihdhar were to switch passports in Kuala Lumpur before going on to the United States. Khallad—who traveled to Kuala Lumpur ahead of Hazmi and Mihdhar—attended a prosthesis clinic in Kuala Lumpur. He then flew to Hong Kong aboard a U.S. airliner and was able to carry a box cutter, concealed in his toiletries bag, onto the flight. He returned to Kuala Lumpur, where Hazmi and Mihdhar arrived during the first week in January 2000. The al Qaeda operatives were hosted in Kuala Lumpur by Jemaah Islamiah members Hambali and Yazid Sufaat, among others. When Khallad headed next to a meeting in Bangkok, Hazmi and Mihdhar decided to join him to enhance their cover as tourists.
Khallad had his meetings in Bangkok and returned to Kandahar. Khallad and Abu Bara would not take part in a planes operation; in the spring of 2000, Bin Ladin cancelled the Southeast Asia part of the operation because it was too difficult to coordinate with the U.S. part. Hazmi and Mihdhar spent a few days in Bangkok and then headed for Los Angeles, where they would become the first 9/11 operatives to enter the United States on January 15, 2000.
Four students in Hamburg
While KSM was deploying his initial operatives for the 9/11 attacks to Kuala Lumpur, a group of four Western-educated men who would prove ideal for the attacks were making their way to the al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan. The four were Mohamed Atta, Marwan al Shehhi, Ziad Jarrah, and Ramzi Binalshibh. Atta, Shehhi, and Jarrah would become pilots for the 9/11 attacks, while Binalshibh would act as a key coordinator for the plot. Atta, the oldest of the group, was born in Egypt in 1968 and moved to Germany to study in 1992 after graduating from Cairo University. Shehhi was from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and entered Germany in 1996 through a UAE military scholarship program. Jarrah was from a wealthy family in Lebanon and went to Germany after high school to study at the University of Greifswald. Finally, Binalshibh, a Yemeni, arrived in Germany in 1995.
Atta and Binalshibh were the first of the four to meet, at a mosque in Hamburg in 1995. In 1998, Atta and Binalshibh moved into a Hamburg apartment with Shehhi, who had been studying in Bonn; after several months, the trio moved to 54 Marienstrasse, also in Hamburg. How Shehhi came to know Atta and Binalshibh is not clear. It is also unknown just how and when Jarrah, who was living in Greifswald, first encountered the group, but we do know that he moved to Hamburg in late 1997.
By the time Atta, Shehhi, and Binalshibh were living together in Hamburg, they and Jarrah were well known among Muslims in Hamburg and, with a few other like-minded students, were holding extremely anti-American discussions. Atta, the leader of the group, denounced what he described as a global Jewish movement centered in New York City which, he claimed, controlled the financial world and the media. As time passed, the group became more extreme and secretive. According to Binalshibh, by sometime in 1999, the four had decided to act on their beliefs and to pursue jihad against the Russians in Chechnya.
The Hamburg students Join al Qaeda
As Binalshibh is the only one of the four still alive, he is the primary source for an explanation of how the Hamburg group was recruited into the 9/11 plot. Binalshibh claims that during 1999, he and Shehhi had a chance meeting with an individual to whom they expressed an interest in joining the fighting in Chechnya. They were referred to another individual named Mohamedou Ould Slahi—an al Qaeda member living in Germany. He advised them that it was difficult to get to Chechnya and that they should go to Afghanistan first. Following Slahi’s advice, between November and December of 1999, Atta, Jarrah, Shehhi, and Binalshibh went to Afghanistan, traveling separately. When Binalshibh reached the camps in Kandahar, he found that Atta and Jarrah had already pledged bayat, or allegiance, to Bin Ladin, and that Shehhi had already left for the UAE to prepare for the anti-U.S. mission the group had been assigned. Binalshibh followed suit, pledging bayat to Bin Ladin in a private meeting. Binalshibh, Atta, and Jarrah met with Bin Ladin’s deputy, Mohamed Atef, who directed them to return to Germany and enroll in flight training. Atta was chosen as the emir, or leader, of the mission. He met with Bin Ladin to discuss the targets: the World Trade Center, which represented the U.S. economy; the Pentagon, a symbol of the U.S. military; and the U.S. Capitol, the perceived source of U.S. policy in support of Israel. The White House was also on the list, as Bin Ladin considered it a political symbol and wanted to attack it as well. KSM and Binalshibh have both stated that, in early 2000, Shehhi, Atta, and Binalshibh met with KSM in Karachi for training that included learning about life in the United States and how to read airline schedules.
By early March 2000, all four new al Qaeda recruits were back in Germany. They began researching flight schools in Europe, but quickly found that training in the United States would be cheaper and faster. Atta, Shehhi, and Jarrah obtained U.S. visas, but Binalshibh—the sole Yemeni in the group—was rejected repeatedly. In the spring of 2000, Atta, Shehhi, and Jarrah prepared to travel to the United States to begin flight training. Binalshibh would remain behind and help coordinate the operation, serving as a link between KSM and Atta.
California
While the Hamburg operatives were just joining the 9/11 plot, Nawaf al Hazmi and Khalid al Mihdhar were already living in the United States, having arrived in Los Angeles on January 15, 2000. It has not been established where they stayed during the first two weeks after their arrival. They appear to have frequented the King Fahd Mosque in Culver City, possibly staying in an apartment nearby. Much remains unknown about their activities and associates while in Los Angeles and our investigation of this period of the conspiracy is continuing.
KSM contends that he directed the two to settle in San Diego after learning from a phone book about language and flight schools there. Recognizing that neither Hazmi nor Mihdhar spoke English or was familiar with Western culture, KSM instructed these operatives to seek help from the local Muslim community.
As of February 1, 2000, Hazmi and Mihdhar were still in Los Angeles, however. That day, the two al Qaeda operatives met a Saudi named Omar al Bayoumi. Bayoumi told them that he lived in San Diego and could help them if they decided to move there. Within a few days, Hazmi and Mihdhar traveled to San Diego. They found Bayoumi at the Islamic Center and took him up on his offer to help them find an apartment. On February 5, Hazmi and Mihdhar moved into a unit they rented in Bayoumi’s apartment complex in San Diego. While it is clear that Bayoumi helped them settle in San Diego, we have not uncovered evidence that he did so knowing that they were terrorists, or that he believed in violent extremism.
Hazmi and Mihdhar also received assistance from various other individuals in the Muslim community in San Diego. Several of their new friends were foreign students in their early 20’s who worshipped at the Rabat Mosque in La Mesa. One of them, an illegal immigrant named Mohdar Abdullah, became particularly close to Hazmi and Mihdhar and helped them obtain driver’s licenses and enroll in schools. When interviewed by the FBI after 9/11, Abdullah denied knowing about the operatives’ terrorist plans. Before his recent deportation to Yemen, however, Abdullah allegedly made various claims to individuals incarcerated with him about having advance knowledge of the operatives’ 9/11 mission, going so far as to tell one inmate that he had received instructions to pick up the operatives at Los Angeles International Airport, and had driven them from Los Angeles to San Diego. Abdullah and others in his circle appear to have held extremist sympathies.
While in San Diego, Hazmi and Mihdhar also established a relationship with Anwar Aulaqi, an imam at the Rabat Mosque. Aulaqi reappears in our story later. Another San Diego resident rented Hazmi and Mihdhar a room in his house. An apparently law abiding citizen with close contacts among local police and FBI personnel, the operatives’ housemate saw nothing in their behavior to arouse suspicion. Nor did his law enforcement contacts ask him for information about his tenants.
Hazmi and Mihdhar were supposed to learn English and then enroll in flight schools, but they made only cursory attempts at both. Mihdhar paid for an English class that Hazmi took for about a month. The two al Qaeda operatives also took a few short flying lessons. According to their flight instructors, they were interested in learning to fly jets and did not realize that they had to start training on small planes. In June 2000, Mihdhar abruptly returned to his family in Yemen, apparently without permission. KSM was very displeased and wanted to remove him from the operation, but Bin Ladin interceded, and Mihdhar remained part of the plot.
The Hamburg Group arrives in the United States
On the East Coast, in May and June 2000, the three operatives from Hamburg who had succeeded in obtaining visas began arriving in the United States. Marwan al Shehhi arrived first, on May 29, 2000, at Newark Airport in New Jersey. Mohamed Atta arrived there five days later, on June 3. He and Shehhi had not yet decided where they would train. They directed inquiries to flight schools in New Hampshire and New Jersey, and, after spending about a month in New York City, visited the Airman Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma, where Zacarias Moussaoui would enroll the following February. For some reason, Atta and Shehhi decided not to enroll there. Instead, they went to Venice, Florida, where Ziad Jarrah had already started his training at Florida Flight Training Center, having arrived in the United States on June 27. Atta and Shehhi enrolled in a different flight school, Huffman Aviation, and began training almost daily. In mid-August, Atta and Shehhi both passed the Private Pilot Airman test. Their instructors described Atta and Shehhi as aggressive and rude, and in a hurry to complete their training.
Meanwhile, Jarrah obtained his single engine private pilot certificate in early August 2000. In October, Jarrah went on the first of five foreign trips he would take during his time in the United States. He returned to Germany to visit his girlfriend, Aysel Senguen, the daughter of Turkish immigrants, whom Jarrah had met in 1996 and married in a 1999 Islamic ceremony not recognized under German law.
The fourth pilot: Hani Hanjour
By this point, in the fall of 2000, three 9/11 pilots were progressing in their training. It was clear, though, that the first two assigned to the operation, Hazmi and Mihdhar, would not learn to fly aircraft. It proved unnecessary to scale back the operation, however, because a young Saudi with special credentials arrived at an al Qaeda camp in Afghanistan.
Hani Hanjour had studied in the United States intermittently since 1991, and had undergone enough flight training in Arizona to obtain his commercial pilot certificate in April 1999. His friends there included individuals with ties to Islamic extremism. Reportedly a devout Muslim all his life, Hanjour worked for a relief agency in Afghanistan in the 1980s. By 2000, he was back in Afghanistan where he was identified among al Qaeda recruits at the al Faruq camp as a trained pilot and who should be sent to KSM for inclusion in the plot.
After receiving several days of training from KSM in Karachi, Hanjour returned to Saudi Arabia on June 20, 2000. There he obtained a U.S. student visa on September 25, before traveling to the UAE to receive funds for the operation from KSM’s nephew, a conspirator named Ali Abdul Aziz Ali. On December 8, 2000, Hanjour traveled to San Diego to join Nawaf al Hazmi, who had been alone since Mihdhar’s departure six months earlier.
Once Hanjour arrived in San Diego and joined Hazmi, the two quickly relocated to Arizona, where Hanjour had spent most of his previous time in the United States. On December 12, 2000, they were settling in Mesa, Arizona, and Hanjour was ready to brush up on his flight training. By early 2001, he was using a Boeing 737 simulator. Because his performance struck his flight instructors as sub-standard, they discouraged Hanjour from continuing, but he persisted. He and Hazmi then left the Southwest at the end of March, driving across the country in Hazmi’s car. There is some evidence indicating that Hanjour may have returned to Arizona in June of 2001 to obtain additional flight training with some of his associates in the area.
9/11 operatives on the move
Back in Florida, the Hamburg pilots—Atta, Shehhi, and Jarrah—continued to train. By the end of 2000, they also were starting to train on jet aircraft simulators. Around the beginning of the New Year, all three of them left the United States on various foreign trips. Jarrah took the second and third of his five foreign trips, visiting Germany and Beirut to see his girlfriend and family respectively. On one trip, Jarrah’s girlfriend returned with him to the United States and stayed with him in Florida for ten days, even observing one of Jarrah’s training sessions at flight school.
While Jarrah took these personal trips, Atta traveled to Germany for an early January 2001 meeting with Ramzi Binalshibh. Atta reported that the pilots had completed their training and were awaiting further instruction from al Qaeda. After the meeting, Atta returned to Florida and Binalshibh headed to Afghanistan to brief the al Qaeda leadership. As soon as Atta returned to Florida, Shehhi took his foreign trip, an unexplained eight-day sojourn to Casablanca.
After Atta and Shehhi returned to Florida, they moved on to the Atlanta area, where they pursued some additional training. The two rented a small plane with a flight instructor and may have visited a flight school in Decatur, Georgia. By February 19, Atta and Shehhi were on the move again, traveling to Virginia Beach, Virginia. Here is a shot of Atta on February 20, withdrawing $4,000 from his account at a SunTrust Bank branch in Virginia Beach. A bit later, Jarrah spent time in Georgia as well, staying in Decatur in mid-March. At the end of March, he left again for Germany to visit his girlfriend. At about this time, Hanjour and Hazmi were driving from Arizona toward the East Coast. After being stopped for speeding in Oklahoma on April 1, they finally arrived in Northern Virginia. At the Dar al Hijra mosque in Falls Church, they met a Jordanian man named Eyad al Rababah, possibly through Anwar Aulaqi, the imam whom they had known in San Diego and who, in the interim, also had moved east in early 2001.
With Rababah’s help, Hanjour and Hazmi were able to find a room in an apartment in Alexandria, Virginia. When they expressed interest in the greater New York area, Rababah suggested they accompany him to Connecticut, where he was in the process of moving. On May 8, the group—which by now included al Qaeda operatives Ahmad al Ghamdi and Majed Moqed—traveled to Fairfield, Connecticut. The next day, Rababah took them to Paterson, New Jersey to have dinner and see the area. Soon thereafter, they moved into an apartment in Paterson. At this time, we have insufficient basis to conclude that Rababah knew the operatives were terrorists when he assisted them. As for Aulaqi, there is reporting that he has extremist ties, and the circumstances surrounding his relationship with the hijackers remain suspicious. However, we have not uncovered evidence that he associated with the hijackers knowing that they were terrorists.
While Hanjour and Hazmi were settling in New Jersey, Atta and Shehhi were returning to southern Florida. We have examined the allegation that Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague on April 9. Based on the evidence available—including investigation by Czech and U.S. authorities plus detainee reporting—we do not believe that such a meeting occurred. The FBI’s investigation places him in Virginia as of April 4, as evidenced by this bank surveillance camera shot of Atta withdrawing $8,000 from his account. Atta was back in Florida by April 11, if not before. Indeed, investigation has established that, on April 6, 9, 10, and 11, Atta’s cellular telephone was used numerous times to call Florida phone numbers from cell sites within Florida. We have seen no evidence that Atta ventured overseas again or re-entered the United States before July, when he traveled to Spain and back under his true name. Shehhi, on the other hand, visited Cairo between April 18 and May 2. We do not know the reason for this excursion.
The muscle hijackers
While the pilots trained in the United States, Bin Ladin and al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan started selecting the muscle hijackers—those operatives who would storm the cockpit and control the passengers on the four hijacked planes. (The term “muscle” hijacker appears in the interrogation reports of 9/11 conspirators KSM and Binalshibh, and has been widely used to refer to the non-pilot hijackers.) The so-called muscle hijackers actually were not physically imposing, as the majority of them were between 5’5” and 5’7” in height and slender in build. In addition to Hazmi and Mihdhar, the first pair to enter the United States, there were 13 other muscle hijackers, all but one from Saudi Arabia. They were Satam al Suqami, Wail and Waleed al Shehri (two brothers), Abdul Aziz al Omari, Fayez Banihammad (from the UAE), Ahmed al Ghamdi, Hamza al Ghamdi, Mohand al Shehri, Saeed al Ghamdi, Ahmad al Haznawi, Ahmed al Nami, Majed Moqed, and Salem al Hazmi (the brother of Nawaf al Hazmi).
The muscle hijackers were between 20 and 28 years of age and had differing backgrounds. Many were unemployed and lacked higher education, while a few had begun university studies. Although some were known to attend prayer services regularly, others reportedly even consumed alcohol and abused drugs. It has not been determined exactly how each of them was recruited into al Qaeda, but most of them apparently were swayed to join the jihad in Chechnya by contacts at local universities and mosques in Saudi Arabia.
By late 1999 and early 2000, the young men who would become the muscle hijackers began to break off contact with their families and pursue jihad. They made their way to the camps in Afghanistan, where they volunteered to be suicide operatives for al Qaeda. After being picked by Bin Ladin himself for what would become the 9/11 operation, most of them returned to Saudi Arabia to obtain U.S. visas. They then returned to Afghanistan for special training on how to conduct hijackings, disarm air marshals, and handle explosives and knives. Next KSM sent them to the UAE, where his nephew, Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, and another al Qaeda member, Mustafa al Hawsawi, would help them buy plane tickets to the United States.
In late April 2001, the muscle hijackers started arriving in the United States, specifically in Florida, Washington, DC, and New York. They traveled mostly in pairs and were assisted upon arrival by Atta and Shehhi in Florida or Hazmi and Hanjour in DC and New York. The final pair, Salem al Hazmi and Abdulaziz al Omari, arrived New York on June 29 and likely were picked up the following day by Salem’s brother, Nawaf, as evidenced by Nawaf’s minor traffic accident while heading east on the George Washington Bridge. Finally, on July 4, Khalid al Mihdhar, who had abandoned Nawaf al Hazmi back in San Diego 13 months earlier, re-entered the United States. Mihdhar promptly joined the group in Paterson, New Jersey.
Summer of preparations
In addition to assisting the newly-arrived muscle hijackers, the pilots busied themselves during the summer of 2001 with cross-country surveillance flights and additional flight training. Shehhi took the first cross-country flight, from New York to San Francisco and on to Las Vegas on May 24. Jarrah was next, traveling from Baltimore to Los Angeles and on to Las Vegas on June 7. Then, on June 28, Atta flew from Boston to San Francisco and on to Las Vegas. Each flew first class, in the same type of aircraft he would pilot on September 11.
In addition to the test flights, some of the operatives obtained additional training. In early June, Jarrah sought to fly the “Hudson Corridor,” a low altitude “hallway” along the Hudson River that passed several New York landmarks, including the World Trade Center. Hanjour made the same request at a flight school in New Jersey. The 9/11 operatives were now split between two locations: southern Florida and Paterson, New Jersey. Atta had to coordinate the two groups, especially with Nawaf al Hazmi, who was considered Atta’s second-in-command for the entire operation. Their first in-person meeting probably took place in June, when Hazmi flew round-trip between Newark and Miami.
The next step for Atta was a mid-July status meeting with Binalshibh at a small resort town in Spain. According to Binalshibh, the two discussed the progress of the plot, and Atta disclosed that he would still need about five or six weeks before he would be able to provide the date for the attacks. Atta also reported that he, Shehhi, and Jarrah had been able to carry box cutters onto their test flights; they had determined that the best time to storm the cockpit would be about 10-15 minutes after takeoff, when they noticed that cockpit doors were typically opened for the first time. Atta also said that the conspirators planned to crash their planes into the ground if they could not strike their targets. Atta himself planned to crash his aircraft into the streets of New York if he could not hit the World Trade Center. After the meeting, Binalshibh left to report the progress to the al Qaeda leadership in Afghanistan, and Atta returned to Florida on July 19.
In early August, Atta spent a day waiting at the Orlando airport for one additional muscle hijacker intended for the operation, Mohamed al Kahtani. As noted in Staff Statement No. 1, Kahtani was turned away by U.S. immigration officials and failed to join the operation. On August 13, another in-person meeting of key players in the plot apparently took place, as Atta, Nawaf al Hazmi, and Hanjour gathered one last time in Las Vegas. Two days later, the FBI learned about the strange behavior of Zacarias Moussaoui, who was now training on flight simulators in Minneapolis.
The final days
In addition to their last test flights and Las Vegas trips, the conspirators had other final preparations to make. Some of the pilots took practice flights on small rented aircraft, and the muscle hijackers trained at gyms. The operatives also purchased a variety of small knives that they may have used during the attacks. While we can’t know for sure, some of the knives the terrorists bought may have been these, which were recovered from the Flight 93 crash site. On August 22, Jarrah attempted to buy four Global Positioning System (GPS) units from a pilot shop in Miami. Only one unit was available, and Jarrah purchased it along with three aeronautical charts.
Just over two weeks before the attacks, the conspirators purchased their flight tickets. Between August 26 and September 5, they bought tickets on the Internet, by phone, and in person. Once the ticket purchases were made, the conspirators returned excess funds to al Qaeda. During the first week in September, they made a series of wire transfers to Mustafa al Hawsawi in the UAE, totaling about $26,000. Nawaf al Hazmi attempted to send Hawsawi the debit card for Mihdhar’s bank account, which still contained approximately $10,000. (The package containing the card would be intercepted after the FBI found the Express Mail receipt for it in Hazmi’s car at Dulles Airport on 9/11.) The last step was to travel to the departure points for the attacks. The operatives for American Airlines Flight 77, which would depart from Dulles and crash into the Pentagon, gathered in Laurel, Maryland, about 20 miles from Washington, DC. The Flight 77 team stayed at a motel in Laurel during the first week of September and spent time working out at a nearby gym. On the final night before the attacks, they stayed at a hotel in Herndon, Virginia, close to Dulles Airport. Further north, the operatives for United Airlines Flight 93, which would depart from Newark and crash in Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania, gathered in Newark. Just after midnight on September 9, Jarrah received this speeding ticket as he headed north through Maryland along Interstate 95, towards his team’s staging point in New Jersey.
Atta continued to coordinate the teams until the very end. On September 7, he flew from Fort Lauderdale to Baltimore, presumably to meet with the Flight 77 team in Laurel, Maryland. On September 9, he flew from Baltimore to Boston. By this time, Marwan al Shehhi and his team for Flight 175 had arrived in Boston, and Atta was seen with Shehhi at his hotel. The next day, Atta picked up Abdul Aziz al Omari, one of the Flight 11 muscle hijackers, from his Boston hotel and drove to Portland, Maine. For reasons that remain unknown, Atta and Omari took a commuter flight to Boston during the early hours of September 11 to connect to Flight 11. As shown here, they cleared security at the airport in Portland and boarded the flight that would allow them to join the rest of their team at Logan Airport.
The Portland detour almost prevented Atta and Omari from making Flight 11 out of Boston. In fact, the luggage they checked in Portland failed to make it onto the plane. Seized after the September 11 crashes, Atta and Omari’s luggage turned out to contain a number of telling items, including: correspondence from the university Atta attended in Egypt; Omari’s international driver’s license and passport; a video cassette for a Boeing 757 flight simulator; and this folding knife and pepper spray, presumably extra weapons the two conspirators decided they didn’t need.
On the morning of September 11, after years of planning and many months of intensive preparation, all four terrorist teams were in place to execute the attacks of that day.
Financing of the 9/11 plot
We estimate that the 9/11 attacks cost somewhere between $400,000 and $500,000 to execute. The operatives spent over $270,000 in the United States, and the costs associated with Zacarias Moussaoui—who is discussed at greater length below—were at least $50,000. Additional expenses included travel to obtain passports and visas; travel to the United States; expenses incurred by the plot leader and facilitators outside the United States; and expenses incurred by the people selected to be hijackers but who ultimately did not participate. For many of these expenses, we have only fragmentary evidence and/or unconfirmed detainee reports and can make only a rough estimate of costs. Our $400,000-$500,000 estimate does not include the cost of running the camps in Afghanistan where the hijackers were recruited and trained, or the cost of that training. We have found no evidence that the Hamburg group received funds from al Qaeda before late 1999. They apparently supported themselves before joining the conspiracy. Thereafter, according to KSM, they each received $5,000 to pay for their return to Germany from Afghanistan plus funds for travel from Germany to the United States. KSM, Binalshibh, and plot facilitator Mustafa al Hawsawi, each received money— perhaps $10,000—to cover their living expenses while they fulfilled their roles in the plot.
In the United States, the operatives’ primary expenses consisted of flight training, living expenses (room, board and meals, vehicles, insurance, etc.), and travel (casing flights, meetings, and the flights on 9/11). All told, about $300,000 was deposited into the 19 hijackers’ bank accounts in the United States. They received funds in the United States through a variety of unexceptional means. Approximately $130,000 arrived via a series of wire transfers from Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, who sent approximately $120,000 from Dubai, and Binalshibh, who sent just over $10,000 from Germany. Shown here is the receipt for the largest wire transfer sent to the conspirators in the United States, $70,000 that Ali wired Marwan al Shehhi on September 17, 2000, just when Shehhi, Atta and Jarrah were in the middle of their flight training. In addition to receiving funds by wire, the operatives brought significant amounts of cash and travelers checks with them into the United States, the largest amount coming with the 13 muscle hijackers who began arriving in April 2001. Finally, several of the operatives relied on accounts in overseas financial institutions, which they accessed in the United States with ATM and credit cards.
The conspiracy made extensive use of banks in the United States, both branches of major international banks and smaller regional banks. All of the operatives opened accounts in their own names, using passports and other identification documents. There is no evidence that they ever used false social security numbers to open any bank accounts. Their transactions were unremarkable and essentially invisible amidst the billions of dollars flowing around the world every day.
No credible evidence exists that the operatives received substantial funding from any person in the United States. Specifically, there is no evidence that Mihdhar and Hazmi received funding from Saudi citizens Omar al Bayoumi and Osama Bassnan, or that Saudi Princess Haifa al Faisal provided any funds to the conspiracy either directly or indirectly.
To date, the U.S. government has not been able to determine the origin of the money used for the 9/11 attacks. Compelling evidence traces the bulk of the funds directly back to KSM, but from where KSM obtained the money remains unknown at this time. Ultimately the question is of little practical significance. Al Qaeda had many avenues of funding and a pre-9/11 annual budget estimated at $30 million. If a particular source of funds had dried up, al Qaeda could have easily found enough money to fund an attack that cost $400,000-$500,000 over nearly two years.
A Closer Look at Specific Aspects of the Plot
Given the catastrophic results of the 9/11 attacks, it is tempting to depict the plot as a set plan executed to near perfection. This would be a mistake. The 9/11 conspirators confronted operational difficulties, internal disagreements, and even dissenting opinions within the leadership of al Qaeda. In the end, the plot proved sufficiently flexible to adapt and evolve as challenges arose. |
This is but one staff statement from the 9/11 commission and it references multiple primary (first hand) sources. It is logically and internally consistent. I found this on an MSNBC website in about 3 mins.
In other words the info is out there for you to see...you just don't want to see it. You are destined to be laughed at wherever you go and whoever you tell your complicated paranoid fantasy to. Have fun with that.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | | Quote: | Quote:
who decided that the indian times report of the atta transfer was a fabrication? why was mahmoud ahmed fired?
What does it matter? I already told folks here that UBL admitted that he did it!! |
eh.. hang on.. hang on one second... ooh
your god aren't you? why didn't you say?? sorry god. i didn't realise it was you
i'm really sorry. you told me and i didn't believe you. sorry god
well if you told us!! well. jeez.. sorry guys.. sorry. close the forum. nothing to see here |
Critical thinking is not a god-like power. Anyone can do it...even you...but you have to want to.
An example of critical thinking in action:
In reviewing the picture of material being vented from the WTC tower during the collapse is it more reasonable to posit the existance of vents and air pressure at work...or a massive conspiracy involving bombs and drones??
Either theory explains the picture...but which is more likely to be true? The existance of vents and machine rooms and air pressure during the collapse is indisputable and backed by evidence and falsifiable data. The second theory is backed by nothing but the assumptions of biased anti-government "activists".
Case closed.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Abandoned Ego
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 288
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: Youre right Jay |
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| Quote: | In other words the info is out there for you to see...you just don't want to see it. You are destined to be laughed at wherever you go and whoever you tell your complicated paranoid fantasy to. Have fun with that.
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Youre right Jay. In fact its splattered all over this forum
Along with a litany of questions to you, which despite promising to answer you have failed miserably with.
Rather like the Kean Commission really.
You werent on it were ya ? 
Just one final thing Jay. We are still waiting for your evidence of the official conspiracy theory.
Just like that photo of the plane hitting the pentagram. |
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andyb
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: SW London
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Jayref,
Is this the same commission you are talking about
| Quote: |
Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.
Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources. Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.
In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.
"We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied."
Although the commission's landmark report made it clear that the Defense Department's early versions of events on the day of the attacks were inaccurate, the revelation that it considered criminal referrals reveals how skeptically those reports were viewed by the panel and provides a glimpse of the tension between it and the Bush administration.
A Pentagon spokesman said yesterday that the inspector general's office will soon release a report addressing whether testimony delivered to the commission was "knowingly false." A separate report, delivered secretly to Congress in May 2005, blamed inaccuracies in part on problems with the way the Defense Department kept its records, according to a summary released yesterday.
A spokesman for the Transportation Department's inspector general's office said its investigation is complete and that a final report is being drafted. Laura Brown, a spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, said she could not comment on the inspector general's inquiry.
In an article scheduled to be on newsstands today, Vanity Fair magazine reports aspects of the commission debate -- though it does not mention the possible criminal referrals -- and publishes lengthy excerpts from military audiotapes recorded on Sept. 11. ABC News aired excerpts last night.
For more than two years after the attacks, officials with NORAD and the FAA provided inaccurate information about the response to the hijackings in testimony and media appearances. Authorities suggested that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that jets had been scrambled in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington.
In fact, the commission reported a year later, audiotapes from NORAD's Northeast headquarters and other evidence showed clearly that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft -- American Airlines Flight 11 -- long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center.
Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the commission determined that the airliner was not hijacked until 12 minutes later. The military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.
These and other discrepancies did not become clear until the commission, forced to use subpoenas, obtained audiotapes from the FAA and NORAD, officials said. The agencies' reluctance to release the tapes -- along with e-mails, erroneous public statements and other evidence -- led some of the panel's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on Sept. 11.
"I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on Sept. 11, said in a recent interview. "The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. . . . This is not spin. This is not true."
Arnold, who could not be reached for comment yesterday, told the commission in 2004 that he did not have all the information unearthed by the panel when he testified earlier. Other military officials also denied any intent to mislead the panel.
John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary, said in a recent interview that he believed the panel may have been lied to but that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to support a criminal referral.
"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006 080101300.html
_________________
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| kbo234 wrote: | | DeFecToR wrote: |
Have a look through his previous post list. There you'll see that when asked with questions that back him against he wall, and he can't parrot the answers from his debunk sites, he disappears completely.
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Absolutely correct. |
Absolutely in-correct. If DeFecToR was "absolutely correct" you would not now be reading this post would you? Obviously I'm right here and will be until such time as you guys give in to your urge to ban me so that the choir can get back to singing the praises of the prevailing mythology in peace.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| andyb wrote: | Jayref,
Is this the same commission you are talking about
| Quote: |
Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.
Suspicion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources. Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.
In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.
"We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied."
Although the commission's landmark report made it clear that the Defense Department's early versions of events on the day of the attacks were inaccurate, the revelation that it considered criminal referrals reveals how skeptically those reports were viewed by the panel and provides a glimpse of the tension between it and the Bush administration.
A Pentagon spokesman said yesterday that the inspector general's office will soon release a report addressing whether testimony delivered to the commission was "knowingly false." A separate report, delivered secretly to Congress in May 2005, blamed inaccuracies in part on problems with the way the Defense Department kept its records, according to a summary released yesterday.
A spokesman for the Transportation Department's inspector general's office said its investigation is complete and that a final report is being drafted. Laura Brown, a spokeswoman for the Federal Aviation Administration, said she could not comment on the inspector general's inquiry.
In an article scheduled to be on newsstands today, Vanity Fair magazine reports aspects of the commission debate -- though it does not mention the possible criminal referrals -- and publishes lengthy excerpts from military audiotapes recorded on Sept. 11. ABC News aired excerpts last night.
For more than two years after the attacks, officials with NORAD and the FAA provided inaccurate information about the response to the hijackings in testimony and media appearances. Authorities suggested that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that jets had been scrambled in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington.
In fact, the commission reported a year later, audiotapes from NORAD's Northeast headquarters and other evidence showed clearly that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft -- American Airlines Flight 11 -- long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center.
Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the commission determined that the airliner was not hijacked until 12 minutes later. The military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.
These and other discrepancies did not become clear until the commission, forced to use subpoenas, obtained audiotapes from the FAA and NORAD, officials said. The agencies' reluctance to release the tapes -- along with e-mails, erroneous public statements and other evidence -- led some of the panel's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on Sept. 11.
"I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described," John Farmer, a former New Jersey attorney general who led the staff inquiry into events on Sept. 11, said in a recent interview. "The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. . . . This is not spin. This is not true."
Arnold, who could not be reached for comment yesterday, told the commission in 2004 that he did not have all the information unearthed by the panel when he testified earlier. Other military officials also denied any intent to mislead the panel.
John F. Lehman, a Republican commission member and former Navy secretary, said in a recent interview that he believed the panel may have been lied to but that he did not believe the evidence was sufficient to support a criminal referral.
"My view of that was that whether it was willful or just the fog of stupid bureaucracy, I don't know," Lehman said. "But in the order of magnitude of things, going after bureaucrats because they misled the commission didn't seem to make sense to me."
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006 080101300.html |
Your posting of this info is appreciated but I don't see your point. Your article fails to refute any point made in my source...in fact it points up the fact that the 9/11 commission reacted with appropriate skepticism of DoD accounts which did not mesh with the facts.
It actually bolsters the credibility of my post. Thanks.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Youre right Jay |
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| Abandoned Ego wrote: | | Quote: | In other words the info is out there for you to see...you just don't want to see it. You are destined to be laughed at wherever you go and whoever you tell your complicated paranoid fantasy to. Have fun with that.
|
Youre right Jay. In fact its splattered all over this forum
Along with a litany of questions to you, which despite promising to answer you have failed miserably with.
Rather like the Kean Commission really.
You werent on it were ya ?
Just one final thing Jay. We are still waiting for your evidence of the official conspiracy theory.
Just like that photo of the plane hitting the pentagram. |
Your post is a non-sequitur. Please make sense next time.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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andyb
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: SW London
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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It does show waht a farce the Keane Commission and report really are. How it bolsters your argument only you will know!
_________________
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| andyb wrote: | | It does show waht a farce the Keane Commission and report really are. How it bolsters your argument only you will know! |
All it shows is that the commission looked skeptically at all sources...even those within the government.
Sounds to me like what an independent investigator would do. What is it you guys are agitating for? An independent investigation? If you really were concerned about "truth" you'd likely be quite happy with the Keane commission and it's skeptical appraisal of many varied sources.
As I said...case closed.
-z
BTW: Still no one wants to address my version of the "squib" seen in that pic. Which is more likely?
- A vent in a machine room expelling air pressure during the collapse
- A detonation charge set by experts who were not seen working, who used explosives which left no traces, led by a conspiracy involving hundreds if not thousands of people who all remain silent to this day.
Well? Which do you think more likely?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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