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stateofgrace
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Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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Andrew Johnson
Mighty Poster
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1919
Location: Derbyshire
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 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Time management, my friend - just a suggestion....
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Andrew
Ask the Tough Questions, Folks! |
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blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why has this forum banned all skeptics, |
It obviously hasn't otherwise you would not be here. I say it should. Filth like you should not be allowed here. |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: | | Quote: | | Why has this forum banned all skeptics, |
It obviously hasn't otherwise you would not be here. I say it should. Filth like you should not be allowed here. |
He's talking about the Loose Change forum.
But hey Stateofgrace. Dont like it, make your own documentary, open your own forum and invite the entire world to come and post so you can show everyone what a swell guy you are.
And as for holding lots of polls and calling it poll rigging....???
Eh....?
Come again....?
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Johnny Pixels
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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We've already got a place for discussing 9/11 conspiracies at the JREF forum. We've even got a special Conspiracy Theory sub-forum.
Benefits:
- No bans for disagreeing
- No separate forum for critics
- Non-biased moderation
Down Sides:
- No swearing
- Evidence required for arguments
Come over and sign up:
http://forums.randi.org/forumindex.php
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I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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stateofgrace
Moderate Poster
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your kind offer, Johnny I will. although I have already met many of your members on other forums.
They are nice guys and have contributed greatly to showing me the real truth behind 911. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| stateofgrace wrote: | Thank you for your kind offer, Johnny I will. although I have already met many of your members on other forums.
They are nice guys and have contributed greatly to showing me the real truth behind 911. |
This is why I suffer this 3 ring circus of stupid....
Thanks man.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | stateofgrace wrote: | Thank you for your kind offer, Johnny I will. although I have already met many of your members on other forums.
They are nice guys and have contributed greatly to showing me the real truth behind 911. |
This is why I suffer this 3 ring circus of stupid....
Thanks man.
-z |
I'd love to believe that JJ but then why all the self fulfilling ego-stroking? If you truly wanted to be comended on how you've "showed the real truth about 911" then why arent you trying to show the "real" truth about 911 instead of enaging in name calling a diversions?
No, from what i've seen you still have..ehem...'pride' issues. You're not a Porsche owner are you?
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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stateofgrace
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Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: |
It obviously hasn't otherwise you would not be here. I say it should. Filth like you should not be allowed here. |
So you agree that censorship and poll rigging is ok? |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| stateofgrace wrote: | | blackcat wrote: |
It obviously hasn't otherwise you would not be here. I say it should. Filth like you should not be allowed here. |
So you agree that censorship and poll rigging is ok? |
For god sake. We've already been through this here.
This is a private website forum, where membership is discretional, and rules can be changed or created according to its moderators. This is NOT an area of free speech. You cannot come here and do what you want. By the very nature of the internet, it is a place where you can FIND somewhere where you opinion is welcomed, no matter what it may be, but that does not mean that you have ANY rights here or anywhere else on the net.
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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stateofgrace
Moderate Poster
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| So you do not agree with freedom of speech ? |
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scar
Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Freedom of speech is not an absolute right, there are practical limitations.
We accept these limitations because we recognize that they serve a greater good. While we may have the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say it wherever we want. |
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stateofgrace
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Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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So serving the greater good involves censorship and poll rigging?
Suppression of freedom of speech and simply insulting anybody that has a different opinion? |
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scar
Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| stateofgrace wrote: | | So you do not agree with freedom of speech ? |
| scar wrote: | Freedom of speech is not an absolute right, there are practical limitations.
We accept these limitations because we recognize that they serve a greater good. While we may have the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say it wherever we want. |
| stateofgrace wrote: | So serving the greater good involves censorship and poll rigging?
Suppression of freedom of speech and simply insulting anybody that has a different opinion? |
I didnt mention censorship or poll rigging nor did I insult you. You obviously didnt understand.
Would you make jokes about bombs whilst boarding a plane? |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| stateofgrace wrote: | So serving the greater good involves censorship and poll rigging?
Suppression of freedom of speech and simply insulting anybody that has a different opinion? |
Sounds like you've pretty much cut to the chase scene....
911 "Truth" is built upon tall tales that:
- Turn innocent people into mass-murderers.
- Turn mass-murderers into innocent people.
- Make liars out to be heros.
- Make heros out to be liars.
- Dishonour the dead.
- Promote anti-semitism.
- Con the stupid.
- Stroke the egos and play on the fears of the paranoid.
- Screw with the minds of the deluded.
- Create a cottage industry out of national tragedy.
The kind of people who once slunk around cemetaries with shovels and lanterns now use "movements" and the internet. The net result is the same. Victims are re-victimized, families re-traumatized, and unfair advantage of the vulnerable is taken.. All for the gain of a few very unsavoury characters.
Disgusting.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| stateofgrace wrote: | | So you do not agree with freedom of speech ? |
I'll ignore the fact that this statement doesnt make sense and answer the question you were trying to ask.
I agree that in certain venues and situations we should be allowed to exercise our right to free speech.
However, i cannot walk on to private premises, say for example where you work or your home and say what i like and expect my right to free speech to be honered. It doesnt work that way. The same applies here or at any other website where you can voice your opinion. What you are allowed to do there is at the discretion of the owner and moderator of the website. What rights you have to say what you want in a private place are given to you by the owner of that place. If you break the rules laid down there you can be forcably stopped from voicing your opinion. It would then be up to you to exercise your freedom to go elsewhere where your opinion will be welcomed.
And please, stop trying to make out that we have some issue with the limiting of free speech in all curcumstances. That is absolute rubbish. Some of us do have issues with free speech but its with these disgusting 'free speech zones' that now limit our right to assemble and protest. That is a REAL free speech issue, unlike your ill concieved semantics.
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | stateofgrace wrote: | | So you do not agree with freedom of speech ? |
I'll ignore the fact that this statement doesnt make sense and answer the question you were trying to ask.
I agree that in certain venues and situations we should be allowed to exercise our right to free speech.
However, i cannot walk on to private premises, say for example where you work or your home and say what i like and expect my right to free speech to be honered. It doesnt work that way. The same applies here or at any other website where you can voice your opinion. What you are allowed to do there is at the discretion of the owner and moderator of the website. What rights you have to say what you want in a private place are given to you by the owner of that place. If you break the rules laid down there you can be forcably stopped from voicing your opinion. It would then be up to you to exercise your freedom to go elsewhere where your opinion will be welcomed. |
This is very good advice if we were speaking of a insular club, private organization, or business. This however purports to be a public movement. You cannot promote an agenda calling for a new investigation into a public tragedy by only allowing speech which supports your side of the argument.
At some point you must debate the merit of your demands with people who may not agree with you. If you don't wish to ever do this...then you have no movement. What you have is a club for paranoid individuals.
| Quote: |
And please, stop trying to make out that we have some issue with the limiting of free speech in all curcumstances. That is absolute rubbish. Some of us do have issues with free speech but its with these disgusting 'free speech zones' that now limit our right to assemble and protest. That is a REAL free speech issue, unlike your ill concieved semantics. |
There is no difference. The concept is the same. The only difference is in scale. Your stance is clear hypocrisy.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Let's clarify a few things
This website isn't the be all and end all of this campaign. We will happily debate our critics in public
We will also happily debate our critics on this forum in this area, when some of 'us' can be bothered
But you should understand the primary function of this forum. It is an on-line community for supporters of the campaign to reopen 9/11 to link up and plan / share 9/11 campaigning activities. If we allowed all our critics the freedom to post all over this space, it would change its very nature and purpose.
So to clarify this area (critics corner) is pretty much a free speech zone. There are still some rules (eg http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=1685) but our critics are welcome here.
The rest of the forum is for campaign supporters. Here supporters are free to speak their minds. There is no central party line beyond what is on the front page and we don't endorse any one campaigner or version of events.
It's a bit like if you joined a political party and then went along to the national conference and started heckling and saying that in fact you don't actually support the political party. I think you would find the conference organisers might have a problem with your constant heckling in the main hall and request that you use a fringe meeting to make your points to anyone who is interested.
Jayref, if I thought your opinion carried any weight with the wider British public I might be tempted to engage with you in the belief that our debate might sway this wider opinion, but mostly I see engaging with you to be a waste of my time as is most antagonistic debate on public discussion forums. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ian neal wrote: | Let's clarify a few things
This website isn't the be all and end all of this campaign. We will happily debate our critics in public |
So why are you afraid to debate them here? In a place where your level of control is highest?
| Quote: |
We will also happily debate our critics on this forum in this area, when some of 'us' can be bothered |
Well obviously your most adroit debaters haven't yet been bothered...
| Quote: |
But you should understand the primary function of this forum. It is an on-line community for supporters of the campaign to reopen 9/11 to link up and plan / share 9/11 campaigning activities. If we allowed all our critics the freedom to post all over this space, it would change its very nature and purpose. |
A head-nodders club...got it.
"marginalized" is a better word than "welcome".
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The rest of the forum is for campaign supporters. Here supporters are free to speak their minds. There is no central party line beyond what is on the front page and we don't endorse any one campaigner or version of events. |
They need not worry about supporting their allegations in any way...got it.
| Quote: |
It's a bit like if you joined a political party and then went along to the national conference and started heckling and saying that in fact you don't actually support the political party. I think you would find the conference organisers might have a problem with your constant heckling in the main hall and request that you use a fringe meeting to make your points to anyone who is interested. |
Like the Republican Convention in NYC? Great...so the "Critic's Corner" is precisely the same as the "free speech zones" in every fundamental way? Got it!
| Quote: |
Jayref, if I thought your opinion carried any weight with the wider British public I might be tempted to engage with you in the belief that our debate might sway this wider opinion, but mostly I see engaging with you to be a waste of my time as is most antagonistic debate on public discussion forums. |
The number of people that "believe" has zero effect on true facts. If you are after truth then you dig out the factual objective evidence. But if you are building a cult...well then belief is everything, isn't it?
Good luck handing out the Kool-Aid there Ian.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
This is very good advice if we were speaking of a insular club, private organization, or business. This however purports to be a public movement.
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Public movement, privately owned and controlled website. See the difference?
| Jay Ref wrote: |
You cannot promote an agenda calling for a new investigation into a public tragedy by only allowing speech which supports your side of the argument.
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Correct. Which is why there is a place here that allows your opinions.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
At some point you must debate the merit of your demands with people who may not agree with you.
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And there was me thinking we were debating who are favourite popstars are.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
There is no difference. The concept is the same. The only difference is in scale. Your stance is clear hypocrisy.
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No, because the right to assemble and protest is a right to do so on publicly owned property. Our rights to free speech are supposed to be protected by law. Please show me where your right to post whatever you want on any website is protected by law.
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Dont get me wrong. I think it was a bad idea for the Loose Change crowd to shut their critics section. However, they had the RIGHT to do so.
But what you all are now trying to do amounts to childish point scoring.
Got anything worth debating? Go for it.
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | Let's clarify a few things
This website isn't the be all and end all of this campaign. We will happily debate our critics in public |
So why are you afraid to debate them here? In a place where your level of control is highest?
| Quote: |
We will also happily debate our critics on this forum in this area, when some of 'us' can be bothered |
Well obviously your most adroit debaters haven't yet been bothered...
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Who says I'm afraid? Not seeing it as a good use of my time more like. |
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stateofgrace
Moderate Poster
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | Dont get me wrong. I think it was a bad idea for the Loose Change crowd to shut their critics section. However, they had the RIGHT to do so.
But what you all are now trying to do amounts to childish point scoring.
Got anything worth debating? Go for it. |
Don't you get it? As the point I am making going straight over your head?
Let me explain and clarify all this for you.
The LC forum is the main forum for promoting the garbage that is called loose change. It is moderated by the makers of this piece of trash.
Yet the very things they believe they are fighting against, that being censorship they do themselves. The very thing the believe they are fighting for, that being freedom of speech they suppress.
Why? Because their entire trashy movie as been exposed as the junk it is. Their entire stupid claims have been repeated torn apart by a few people that can be even bothered to take the time and address them.
One day a qualified pilot pitched, he flew for a living 747’s. He explained the flight path of Flight 77 to everybody. He explained in clear and precise terms exactly what happened to that flight. What did they do? They banned him and removed all traces of his posts.
Listen to experts? You are joking simply censor it all and carry on with our political agenda, even though we know full well we are lying.
A movement that is founded on lies, censorship and suppression is what you support and you wonder why people simply ignore you or just laugh.
This entire movement is geared towards selling wanton lies and deceptions. |
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Johnny Pixels
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ian neal wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | Let's clarify a few things
This website isn't the be all and end all of this campaign. We will happily debate our critics in public |
So why are you afraid to debate them here? In a place where your level of control is highest?
| Quote: |
We will also happily debate our critics on this forum in this area, when some of 'us' can be bothered |
Well obviously your most adroit debaters haven't yet been bothered...
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Who says I'm afraid? Not seeing it as a good use of my time more like. |
You quite spectacularly don't get the point. Not you on your own, but the whole "truth" movement, all arms of it. You believe that 9/11 is an inside job. What do you plan to do with the evidence of this? Just sit around calling the government mass murderers? If you have evidence of a government conspiracy that resulted in the mass murder of its own citizens, then it would be immoral not to act on this evidence. Assuming you wish to act on this evidence, you'll need to take it to court. At the moment you have me, Jay Ref, Chipmunk Stew and a few others ripping your arguments to pieces. What you propose to do is to ignore this criticism as a waste of your time. When you take this evidence to court, do you think they're going to present a couple of part-time debunkers as experts, or are they going to have the pick of the scientific and engineering communities?
Or are you not planning to take this evidence to court? If you're withholding evidence then you're already committing a crime.
It's time to put up, or shut up.
_________________
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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Andrew Johnson
Mighty Poster
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1919
Location: Derbyshire
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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"What's up x are you afraid of reality?"
"Don't you get it? Of couse you don't x, your grasp of english isn't that good."
"As I have explained already, you are just plane WRONG!!!"
"But what you suggest amounts to CENSORSHIP which is the OPPOSITE of what you say you stand for!"
"You are therefore, x intellectually dishonest!"
"Don't try to insult my intelligence with such rubbish."
"It's perfectly clear to anyone of average intelligence that what you are saying is stupid"
"Why don't you debate your critics?"
"What are you afraid of, the truth?"
"To suggest this or that is pathetic and you are avoiding the facts because you can't answer the question"
Ummmm - have I missed any?
_________________
Andrew
Ask the Tough Questions, Folks! |
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Johnny Pixels
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew Johnson wrote: | "What's up x are you afraid of reality?"
"Don't you get it? Of couse you don't x, your grasp of english isn't that good."
"As I have explained already, you are just plane WRONG!!!"
"But what you suggest amounts to CENSORSHIP which is the OPPOSITE of what you say you stand for!"
"You are therefore, x intellectually dishonest!"
"Don't try to insult my intelligence with such rubbish."
"It's perfectly clear to anyone of average intelligence that what you are saying is stupid"
"Why don't you debate your critics?"
"What are you afraid of, the truth?"
"To suggest this or that is pathetic and you are avoiding the facts because you can't answer the question"
Ummmm - have I missed any? |
So take the evidence to court. Blow this thing wide open.
_________________
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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