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ComfortablyNumb
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 Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | Siegel says a nuclear bomb was used ? are you sure? |
I have watched again and Siegel claims that a 1kt nuclear bomb was set off in the basements of both towers. For me this claim is a non-starter.
EMP would have knocked out all the electronics, including video cameras! Plus the fall-out would be somewhat noticable. |
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DeFecToR
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | Siegel says a nuclear bomb was used ? are you sure? |
I have watched again and Siegel claims that a 1kt nuclear bomb was set off in the basements of both towers. For me this claim is a non-starter.
EMP would have knocked out all the electronics, including video cameras! Plus the fall-out would be somewhat noticable. |
Plus the demo was top down, not bottom up.
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catfish
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: |
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Rick is trying to explain what caused the pools of molten metal and his hypothesis is that a nuclear bomb must have been used.
Who knows what caused those melted spots?
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ComfortablyNumb
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| catfish wrote: | Rick is trying to explain what caused the pools of molten metal and his hypothesis is that a nuclear bomb must have been used.
Who knows what caused those melted spots? |
Maybe he is putting forward an hypothesis but I am saying this one is wrong.
Im affraid to say but shugging your shoulders and saying who knows what isn't good enough. I really want to hold some cast iron facts in my hand and push it in front of those 'in charge'! |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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I understand NIST's explaination for the pools of molten metal weeks after 9/11 was that the fires carried on under the rubble getting hotter and hotter and hotter until the melting point of metal was reached and that the fuel and oxygen supply for this phenomenon was completely scientifically plausible on this occasion  |
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | I understand NIST's explaination for the pools of molten metal weeks after 9/11 was that the fires carried on under the rubble getting hotter and hotter and hotter until the melting point of metal was reached and that the fuel and oxygen supply for this phenomenon was completely scientifically plausible on this occasion |
Whether the fuel was something exotic or something perfectly expected, this is, in fact, exactly what happened.
Keeping metal molten for weeks on end requires a continuous heat source. Thermite/thermate/superthermite/nanothermite/awesomemagichyperthermite does its work by burning very hot, very fast. It concentrates its heat on a small area, and as soon as the reaction ends, the metal it reacted with cools off very quickly. Unless there is evidence that secret government ninja spies were sneaking through the rubble continually adding more thermite/thermate/etc. to the fire, then we cannot conclude from the molten material weeks after the event that this is evidence of thermite/thermate/etc. or any other similar explosive or incendiary.
This is an utterly ridiculous argument. |
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Jay Ref
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | I understand NIST's explaination for the pools of molten metal weeks after 9/11 was that the fires carried on under the rubble getting hotter and hotter and hotter until the melting point of metal was reached and that the fuel and oxygen supply for this phenomenon was completely scientifically plausible on this occasion |
Molten iron? Gee, the latest I heard was BOILING IRON!!!
| Quote: | THE EVIDENCE OF BOILING METAL AT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
Christopher Bollyn
American Free Press
The plumes of bluish smoke that rose for weeks from the rubble of the destroyed World Trade Center contained unprecedented amounts of toxic ultra-fine particles which are created only when metal boils. |
...more evidence of the inside job? Or insanity in the troof movement?
-z
_________________
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-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | I understand NIST's explaination for the pools of molten metal weeks after 9/11 was that the fires carried on under the rubble getting hotter and hotter and hotter until the melting point of metal was reached and that the fuel and oxygen supply for this phenomenon was completely scientifically plausible on this occasion |
Molten iron? Gee, the latest I heard was BOILING IRON!!!
| Quote: | THE EVIDENCE OF BOILING METAL AT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
Christopher Bollyn
American Free Press
The plumes of bluish smoke that rose for weeks from the rubble of the destroyed World Trade Center contained unprecedented amounts of toxic ultra-fine particles which are created only when metal boils. |
...more evidence of the inside job? Or insanity in the troof movement?
-z |
I don't know Jay Ref. That article asks a very serious question:
| Quote: | Why are American scientists not investigating the biggest scientific hoax of modern time?
Are they all cowards and prostitutes? |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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For starters I wrote "molten metal" but the above person but one believes that Bin Ladin "9/11 I dunnit" grainy home video he left out december '01 for his old buddies in the CIA to find was 'kosher'! enough said?
If this is such an everyday phenomenon steel framed tall buildings being brought down by 1 to 2 hour small kerosene and office furniture fires leaving molten metal in the debris weeks after can anyone supply me with a link showing one similar example, other than those at the WTC 9/11?
Have insurers changed the wording of their fire cover post WTC 1, 2 AND 7?
Last edited by SHERITON HOTEL on Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Molten iron? Gee, the latest I heard was BOILING IRON!!! |
| Quote: | Quote:
THE EVIDENCE OF BOILING METAL AT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER
Christopher Bollyn
American Free Press
The plumes of bluish smoke that rose for weeks from the rubble of the destroyed World Trade Center contained unprecedented amounts of toxic ultra-fine particles which are created only when metal boils. |
Its hard to tell when you are being deliberately underhand or when you are just plain thick JayRef. He is probably referring to the instant of explosion when temperatures are very very high and it causes the metal to vapourize which is the same as reaching boiling point. This is why the particles are ultra-fine. |
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | For starters I wrote "molten metal" but the above person but one believes that Bin Ladin "9/11 I dunnit" grainy home video he left out december '01 for his old buddies in the CIA to find was 'kosher'! enough said?
If this is such an everyday phenomenon steel framed tall buildings being brought down by 1 to 2 hour small kerosene and office furniture fires leaving molten metal in the debris weeks after can anyone supply me with a link showing one similar example, other than those at the WTC 9/11?
Have insurers changed the wording of their fire cover post WTC 1, 2 AND 7? |
Who said it was an everyday phenomenon? If you're going to use the molten metal as evidence, you have to say what it is evidence OF.
Fill in the blanks, please:
1. There was molten metal at the site weeks after the event
2. Therefore, ____________________
....
n-1. Therefore, ____________________
n. Therefore, 9/11 was an Inside Job |
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John White
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | false flag terrorism was not born on 9/11 you know, |
Indeed, it wasn't. It has thrived in the fertile imaginiations of conspiracy theorists since time immemorial. |
Thats right. In the case of the reichstag fire it was the naked mentally ill boy wot did it, and only the insane would consider differently
Oh hang on a minute: what did the Nazi's need their Patriot Act for then?
Logical people are, without question, the easiest section of society to decieve: if its not in their "program", it cant happen
After all, its entirely logical to conclude that the US will forment coups, fund counter revolutions, support represive regimes and wage wars across the entire planet as a way of normal foriegn policy, especially since WWII but would be utterly unable to harm a hair on any Americans head
after all, thats what the program says!
(which is really a false reality implanted by education and social conditioning, and re-inforced with ego flattery on how "clever" and "analytical" the "logical thinker" is. Me, I can hear such people echoing through history denouncing Gallileo for the illogical heresy that the world is a sphere....)
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | | After all, its entirely logical to conclude that the US will forment coups, fund counter revolutions, support represive regimes and wage wars across the entire planet as a way of normal foriegn policy, especially since WWII but would be utterly unable to harm a hair on any Americans head |
I'm more interested in the question of Did they? than Would they? |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | For starters I wrote "molten metal" but the above person but one believes that Bin Ladin "9/11 I dunnit" grainy home video he left out december '01 for his old buddies in the CIA to find was 'kosher'! enough said?
If this is such an everyday phenomenon steel framed tall buildings being brought down by 1 to 2 hour small kerosene and office furniture fires leaving molten metal in the debris weeks after can anyone supply me with a link showing one similar example, other than those at the WTC 9/11?
Have insurers changed the wording of their fire cover post WTC 1, 2 AND 7? |
Who said it was an everyday phenomenon? If you're going to use the molten metal as evidence, you have to say what it is evidence OF.
Fill in the blanks, please:
1. There was molten metal at the site weeks after the event
2. Therefore, ____________________
....
n-1. Therefore, ____________________
n. Therefore, 9/11 was an Inside Job |
I think the onus is on you to prove NIST's explaination that the kerosene and office furniture fires on the 80th and 60th (appx')floors, freefall collapsed back to earth with sixty and eighty floors respectively of rubble beneath them, by my calculation, and then managed to effect pools of molten metal in the basement area several weeks after when heat, commensurate with the laws of physics,rises.Additionally the fires pre-collapse were under control and about to be extinguished acording to the firefighter tapes, water was heavily played on the rubble and there was heavy rain soon after 9/11.
I'm not sure if the metal found in the basements was that office contents/aluminium alloy that apes the thermite reaction on steel, the kind NIST claimed was coming out of the South tower collapse side immediately before it collapsed. NIST revealed they were government apologists with that absurd claim, a neutral body would have at least said it could have been a thermite reaction especially with all that white smoke that accompanied it. Is it NIST's job to rationalise the government story?(rhetorical question)
this from david Ray Griffin's book 'The New pearl Harbour'... [/i]so WTC7 would be the first steel framed building to collapse solely from fire damage. If such a thing really happened on 9/11, critics point out, this would be an event of overwhelming importance. Everything that architects and building engineers have long assumed about steel framed buildings would need to be rethought. Insurance companies around the world would need to recalculate their rates on the basis of the realization that ordinary fires could cause steel framed buildings to collapse.
Post script: My posting above was meant for your colleague 'Jay Ref' who believes the Bin Ladin tape (the one where he had a face job, darkened several tones and put on 30 to 40 Lbs!) was, I kid you not, genuine! .... or are you the same person??? |
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | For starters I wrote "molten metal" but the above person but one believes that Bin Ladin "9/11 I dunnit" grainy home video he left out december '01 for his old buddies in the CIA to find was 'kosher'! enough said?
If this is such an everyday phenomenon steel framed tall buildings being brought down by 1 to 2 hour small kerosene and office furniture fires leaving molten metal in the debris weeks after can anyone supply me with a link showing one similar example, other than those at the WTC 9/11?
Have insurers changed the wording of their fire cover post WTC 1, 2 AND 7? |
Who said it was an everyday phenomenon? If you're going to use the molten metal as evidence, you have to say what it is evidence OF.
Fill in the blanks, please:
1. There was molten metal at the site weeks after the event
2. Therefore, ____________________
....
n-1. Therefore, ____________________
n. Therefore, 9/11 was an Inside Job |
I think the onus is on you to prove NIST's explaination that the kerosene and office furniture fires on the 80th and 60th (appx')floors, freefall collapsed back to earth with sixty and eighty floors respectively of rubble beneath them, by my calculation, and then managed to effect pools of molten metal in the basement area several weeks after when heat, commensurate with the laws of physics,rises. |
The only viable explanation for the molten material in the basements is underground fires fueled by relatively slow-burning materials. There is simply nothing suspicious about this, unless you can show that it can be better explained by nefarious activity.
| Quote: | | Additionally the fires pre-collapse were under control and about to be extinguished acording to the firefighter tapes, water was heavily played on the rubble and there was heavy rain soon after 9/11. |
Change of subject, but I'll address it anyway.
Chief Palmer was on the 78th floor of WTC2, and shortly before he was killed, he said saw two pockets of fire that he said he could take down with two lines. If he had ever reached higher floors, he would have been faced with an entirely different situation:
| Quote: | <snip another change of subject>
<snip yet another change of subject>
<snip yet a fourth change of subject> |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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How is asking what the molten metal found several weeks after in the WTC 1,2 and 7 basement be "snip changing the subject?  It could, for all we know be the 'NIST alloy' that apes the thermite reaction by-product volatile spitting orange yellow molten iron, am I right?
Is it you contention that the pools of molten metal found in the WTC basements were created by the fires with 60 and 80 floors of rubble beneth them PLUS seven basement floors YES OR NO? if YES can you give us the formulae?
you ARE Jay ref aren't you? |
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John White
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | | John White wrote: | | After all, its entirely logical to conclude that the US will forment coups, fund counter revolutions, support represive regimes and wage wars across the entire planet as a way of normal foriegn policy, especially since WWII but would be utterly unable to harm a hair on any Americans head |
I'm more interested in the question of Did they? than Would they? |
Which bit of "Did they?"
| Quote: | | forment coups, fund counter revolutions, support represive regimes and wage wars |
this bit? (god help the critics if they're arguing counter to any of this)
| Quote: | | harm(ing) a hair on any Americans head |
or this bit?
And does harming through inaction/incompetance count?
Still if you tell me that accepting the first quote and rejecting the second is the default indicator of clear reasoning and logical critical thinking, oh well I'll have to believe you, your so authoratative
Do any critics study psychology or actually observe human nature?
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | How is asking what the molten metal found several weeks after in the WTC 1,2 and 7 basement be "snip changing the subject? It could, for all we know be the 'NIST alloy' that apes the thermite reaction by-product volatile spitting orange yellow molten iron, am I right? |
I have no idea what in God's name you're talking about.
| Quote: | | Is it you contention that the pools of molten metal found in the WTC basements were created by the fires with 60 and 80 floors of rubble beneth them PLUS seven basement floors YES OR NO? |
YES, it's my contention that any molten material found in the basements were created by fires within the rubble (I don't understand what you mean by 60-80 floors of rubble beneath them--what would stop the fires from spreading within the rubble?)
| Quote: | | if YES can you give us the formulae? |
heat + fuel + oxygen = fire |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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'NIST alloy'?pleading ignorance? I didn't know you were that pleading ignorant! As you well know, NIST recently attempted to foil the FAQ's people were asking about the WTC collapses in a document and informed us that what looked like and had all the characteristics of a thermite reaction on the south tower pre-collapse, collapse side, was molten aluminium mixed with office contents! (sic)do you agree that a neutral authority would have also stated it could have been a thermite reaction?
Look, you have a small fire with 80/60 floors of rubble below it plus seven basement floors of rubble, the fire is hosed copiously by the NYFD and also has heavy rain precipitating over it, there's the limiting oxygen factor with rubble on top of the fire, you can put a fire out with a blanket as you probably know,steel can only get as hot as the heat applied to it FACT, so accepting the above, how can the end result from these fires be pools of molten metal in the basement several weeks later? |
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | 'NIST alloy'?pleading ignorance? I didn't know you were that pleading ignorant! As you well know, NIST recently attempted to foil the FAQ's people were asking about the WTC collapses in a document and informed us that what looked like and had all the characteristics of a thermite reaction on the south tower pre-collapse, collapse side, was molten aluminium mixed with office contents! (sic)do you agree that a neutral authority would have also stated it could have been a thermite reaction? |
If there were any other corroborating evidence, yes.
| Quote: | | Look, you have a small fire |
Wrong. See above.
| Quote: | | with 80/60 floors of rubble below it plus seven basement floors of rubble, the fire is hosed copiously by the NYFD and also has heavy rain precipitating over it, there's the limiting oxygen factor with rubble on top of the fire, you can put a fire out with a blanket as you probably know,steel can only get as hot as the heat applied to it FACT, so accepting the above, how can the end result from these fires be pools of molten metal in the basement several weeks later? |
You're right, it's impossible. It didn't happen.
What are you suggesting? What possible alternative heat sources are you prepared to put forth? |
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utopiated
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 645
Location: UK Midlands
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | The problem with the CT mindset is that they are working from an a-priori premise: "9/11 was an inside job"
To them this sentence is the holy writ and informs every opinion regardless of evidence. As long as this is not the "fact" you are establishing you are correct.
You see the CT theories (and as you seem already aware...there are many of them) are like Rube Goldberg devices. They all require way too many complex steps in order to explain the phenomenon. This (and their anti-government angle) are the main points that all CT's have in common.
As such all CT's also share another trait; they defy logic. Anyone who has studied logic knows of Occam's Razor. |
Zzzzz.... Occam's Razor has just become a 911 critic cliche.
People use it to say synthetic terror theories have little value yet the same people claim it is similarly worthless to have, as a foundation of your research a position such as "9/11 was an inside job".
It really doesn't take much to wipe throught the frosty glass and see that the "authentic" story in 9/11 is *far* more convoluted than the idea that the situation was at the least facilitated from the inside.
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MiniMauve
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Posts: 220
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | MiniMauve wrote: |
....
It was watching slow motion videos of the towers disintegrating that my mind changed. i remember thinking, "My God, someone really did set explosives!". I was horrified. From there it's a simple task of keeping your mind open, think logically, and follow the evidence.
....
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As a matter of interest MiniMauve, have you ever considered what kind of explosives could do the job?
Prof Jones' thermite, or what? |
I've tried to learn what I can but I'm no expert. Prof. Jones thermite explanation for the apparant fragility of the steel columns makes as much sense as anything I've seen so far. But that's something I came across later as I began to read up on 911. Something other than thermite blew the towers themselves apart, pulverizing the concrete and everything else. My best guess is they had at least 2 types of explosives, one to cut the steel and one to blow everything to dust. I'm sure there are any number of possibilities for explosives for the latter, the explosive to cut steel would be more unique, I imagine. I assume that's why Prof. Jones is focusing on it.
The point I was trying to make in my original post is that it was so obvious that the floors below the collapse were exploding outwards that I had to accept that CD brought the towers down. Once I looked into it, I came across other questions like the one you allude to: how come the core steel columns didn't survive any longer than the 'pan-caking' floors? There are, as we all know, many more questions. Whether you or I believe there was or wasn't explosives involved in the collapses, it's quite clear that a new investigation should be conducted.
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Stick to what you KNOW. All else is disinformation, intended or not. |
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scubadiver
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Posts: 1850
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| I have to say that this "hoboken" is not as convincing as the earlier version, despite the footage of the flashes as the video collapses (which, IMO, aren't really needed) |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | 'NIST alloy'?pleading ignorance? I didn't know you were that pleading ignorant! As you well know, NIST recently attempted to foil the FAQ's people were asking about the WTC collapses in a document and informed us that what looked like and had all the characteristics of a thermite reaction on the south tower pre-collapse, collapse side, was molten aluminium mixed with office contents! (sic)do you agree that a neutral authority would have also stated it could have been a thermite reaction? |
If there were any other corroborating evidence, yes.
| Quote: | | Look, you have a small fire |
Wrong. See above.
| Quote: | | with 80/60 floors of rubble below it plus seven basement floors of rubble, the fire is hosed copiously by the NYFD and also has heavy rain precipitating over it, there's the limiting oxygen factor with rubble on top of the fire, you can put a fire out with a blanket as you probably know,steel can only get as hot as the heat applied to it FACT, so accepting the above, how can the end result from these fires be pools of molten metal in the basement several weeks later? |
You're right, it's impossible. It didn't happen.
What are you suggesting? What possible alternative heat sources are you prepared to put forth? |
One thing is for sure, I have conclusively eliminated the NIST heat source that you so zealously subscribe to, perhaps it was one of the "19 hijackers" with a Swiss army box cutter, special heat ray attachment" who knows? |
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ComfortablyNumb
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Posts: 86
Location: Flintshire
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: Re: 911 Eyewitness Hoboken |
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