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ComfortablyNumb
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: 911 Eyewitness Hoboken |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Siegel says a nuclear bomb was used ? are you sure?
I think the official 9/11 story as Siegel definitey said is rotten with holes, I think you should join us in pressing for a proper enquiry, false flag terrorism was not born on 9/11 you know, and it probably won't be the last sadly, though us in the truth movement are making it harder for them. |
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aggle-rithm
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | false flag terrorism was not born on 9/11 you know, |
Indeed, it wasn't. It has thrived in the fertile imaginiations of conspiracy theorists since time immemorial. |
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ComfortablyNumb
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm sure its mentioned, but I will go through it again and check. |
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Ignatz
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: 911 Eyewitness Hoboken |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: |
I'm not a sceptic but am critical. To prove this beyond doubt, the facts must stand up to all-comers and all objections. In some ways I hope this is all disproved, because I for one will sleep better in the the knowledge that my kids are not living in the dark place that this conspiracy presents.
Regards |
Hi ComfortablyNumb
Sleep well. Loose Change is ripped to shreds at:
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
(that's the easy-access html version, just to be getting on with. I'm still trying to download the original but have firewall probs)
cheers |
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catfish
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | false flag terrorism was not born on 9/11 you know, |
Indeed, it wasn't. It has thrived in the fertile imaginiations of conspiracy theorists since time immemorial. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension
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Ment : The mind |
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ComfortablyNumb
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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I'm aware that false flags are not new. But I was very careful not to touch on the whys and hows. The purpose of my post was to discuss the whats.
IMHO the whats are far more important than anything else. Establish the facts and everything else will follow. |
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aggle-rithm
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: | I'm aware that false flags are not new. But I was very careful not to touch on the whys and hows. The purpose of my post was to discuss the whats.
IMHO the whats are far more important than anything else. Establish the facts and everything else will follow. |
A refreshing viewpoint after hearing from everyone who say they don't know what was done or how it was done, but they damn sure know WHO DID IT! |
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marky 54
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: 911 Eyewitness Hoboken |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | ComfortablyNumb wrote: |
I'm not a sceptic but am critical. To prove this beyond doubt, the facts must stand up to all-comers and all objections. In some ways I hope this is all disproved, because I for one will sleep better in the the knowledge that my kids are not living in the dark place that this conspiracy presents.
Regards |
Hi ComfortablyNumb
Sleep well. Loose Change is ripped to shreds at:
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
(that's the easy-access html version, just to be getting on with. I'm still trying to download the original but have firewall probs)
cheers |
i wouldnt say its been riped apart. SOME of the words used in the video have had faults picked out and some of them are trival. why dosnt it disprove the video evidence with video evidence? its easy to go through what people have said and pick fault. why not show video evidence to disprove the video evidence? they pick fault with a line for example that says the towers fell in aproximately 10 seconds. they highlight the aproximately and ask how aproximatley was that measured? like that means they are wrong. well watch it yourself it does fall in aproximatley 10 seconds if you watch it. it just an observastion not a measurement. and all that link does is sift through words used and picks fault it dosnt prove wrong anything seen in the footage. i could proberbly go through that document and pick fault with what the person was picking fault with. all it proves is bad use of words on the part of LC it dosnt prove them wrong in what they are showing. anyone can see the size of the hole in the pentagon for example, before the roof collapses it dosnt matter what words they use it dosnt change the size of the hole in the wall. |
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marky 54
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| after going through it ferther i do see some problems with assumptions or misuse of words, but again it dosnt change what your seeing from the video evidence. |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: | I'm aware that false flags are not new. But I was very careful not to touch on the whys and hows. The purpose of my post was to discuss the whats.
IMHO the whats are far more important than anything else. Establish the facts and everything else will follow. |
Agreed. A good post.
The problem with the CT mindset is that they are working from an a-priori premise: "9/11 was an inside job"
To them this sentence is the holy writ and informs every opinion regardless of evidence. As long as this is not the "fact" you are establishing you are correct.
You see the CT theories (and as you seem already aware...there are many of them) are like Rube Goldberg devices. They all require way too many complex steps in order to explain the phenomenon. This (and their anti-government angle) are the main points that all CT's have in common.
As such all CT's also share another trait; they defy logic. Anyone who has studied logic knows of Occam's Razor.
| Quote: | Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off," those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. In short, when given two equally valid explanations for a phenomenon, one should embrace the less complicated formulation. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,
which translates to:
entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.
Furthermore, when multiple competing theories have equal predictive powers, the principle recommends selecting those that introduce the fewest assumptions and postulate the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. |
Illogical, unduly complex, vehemently anti-establishment, and promoted by people of questionable judgement. The CT phenomenon in a nutshell.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Why hasn't that laughable Bin Ladin 911"I dunnit" grainy home video, OBL carelessly left out for his old comrades in the CIA to find that featured in Loose Change, conclusively been exposed as a fraud? This is such an 'Achilles heel' for the inside job denyers it would be worthwhile someone putting resources into proving the attempted deception.
What got me was the mainstream news media at the time straighfaced trying to sell it to the public as genuine.[/b] |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | Why hasn't that laughable Bin Ladin 911"I dunnit" grainy home video, OBL carelessly left out for his old comrades in the CIA to find that featured in Loose Change, conclusively been exposed as a fraud? This is such an 'Achilles heel' for the inside job denyers it would be worthwhile someone putting resources into proving the attempted deception.
What got me was the mainstream news media at the time straighfaced trying to sell it to the public as genuine.[/b] |
The above post is a fine example of the Rube Goldberg mindset. The stupidity is extraordinary.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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marky 54
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| i dont know if the media pushing the tape as real is as scary as the fact that people actually believe it. even a child can do spot the differance. |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | Why hasn't that laughable Bin Ladin 911"I dunnit" grainy home video, OBL carelessly left out for his old comrades in the CIA to find that featured in Loose Change, conclusively been exposed as a fraud? This is such an 'Achilles heel' for the inside job denyers it would be worthwhile someone putting resources into proving the attempted deception.
What got me was the mainstream news media at the time straighfaced trying to sell it to the public as genuine.[/b] |
The above post is a fine example of the Rube Goldberg mindset. The stupidity is extraordinary.
-z |
Does this mean Jayref thought/thinks the tape was/is....G-E-N-U-I-N-E???? |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | Why hasn't that laughable Bin Ladin 911"I dunnit" grainy home video, OBL carelessly left out for his old comrades in the CIA to find that featured in Loose Change, conclusively been exposed as a fraud? This is such an 'Achilles heel' for the inside job denyers it would be worthwhile someone putting resources into proving the attempted deception.
What got me was the mainstream news media at the time straighfaced trying to sell it to the public as genuine.[/b] |
The above post is a fine example of the Rube Goldberg mindset. The stupidity is extraordinary.
-z |
Does this mean Jayref thought/thinks the tape was....G-E-N-U-I-N-E???? |
why do you think it was fake? Also since this is not the only tape...there are others. Bin Laden meeting with Atta and the other terrorists. Then there's the "martyrdom" tapes the terrorists themselves left.
Why do you think all of this information has been faked? Evidence of fakery??? No??
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 988
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | Why hasn't that laughable Bin Ladin 911"I dunnit" grainy home video, OBL carelessly left out for his old comrades in the CIA to find that featured in Loose Change, conclusively been exposed as a fraud? This is such an 'Achilles heel' for the inside job denyers it would be worthwhile someone putting resources into proving the attempted deception.
What got me was the mainstream news media at the time straighfaced trying to sell it to the public as genuine.[/b] |
The above post is a fine example of the Rube Goldberg mindset. The stupidity is extraordinary.
-z |
Does this mean Jayref thought/thinks the tape was....G-E-N-U-I-N-E???? |
why do you think it was fake? Also since this is not the only tape...there are others. Bin Laden meeting with Atta and the other terrorists. Then there's the "martyrdom" tapes the terrorists themselves left.
Why do you think all of this information has been faked? Evidence of fakery??? No??
-z |
come on! you're winding me up...or mental! |
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | Siegel says a nuclear bomb was used ? are you sure?
I think the official 9/11 story as Siegel definitey said is rotten with holes, I think you should join us in pressing for a proper enquiry, false flag terrorism was not born on 9/11 you know, and it probably won't be the last sadly, though us in the truth movement are making it harder for them. |
Interesting. Your efforts didn't stop the Madrid train bombing or the London bombings.
...or, wait a minute...you mean those weren't false flag ops? |
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: 911 Eyewitness Hoboken |
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Pikey
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1491
Location: North Lancashire
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Comfortablynumb states:-
| Quote: | | I was shown the Loose Change video two weeks ago and since then the whole 911 conspiracy is driving me (and my wife) crazy |
Yep thats were I was at two years ago., but everyones gotta learn sometime and you owe it to the kids to research and come to an informed judgement.
When I read David Ray Griffins "The New Pearl Harbour,, Disturbing questions about the Bush administration and 9/11" my conclusion was that the officail version of 911 as presented by the Kean commission report is the official conspiracy theory, simply because there is no evidence and there are so many ommissions and distortions/deceptions contained in it. That is why I support the global 911 Truth movements demand for a full professional independent investigation.
The implications of 911, especially for our children and future generations is a NWO Orwellian fascist state.
I hope that one day soon that you will join us and sign the petition on the front page, when of course you have thoroughly researched the subject matter as I have done.
Peace & truth
_________________
Pikey
Peace, truth, respect and a Mason free society
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaH-lGafwtE#
www.wholetruthcoalition.org
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ComfortablyNumb
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 86
Location: Flintshire
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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I have already signed it!
However, I want to stand on some solid ground and have some evidence that as they say, "to join up the dots". But, to push the mataphor a little further, I also want join the dots to make the correct picture.
If that means to ask some difficult questions or critique some evidence then that's just due process.
A lot of this stuff is open to interpretation, even by professionals let alone the rest of us who try and use a bit of common sense and strain to remember what we learned in 'O' level physics! |
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: 911 Eyewitness Hoboken |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | Siegel says a nuclear bomb was used ? are you sure?
I think the official 9/11 story as Siegel definitey said is rotten with holes, I think you should join us in pressing for a proper enquiry, false flag terrorism was not born on 9/11 you know, and it probably won't be the last sadly, though us in the truth movement are making it harder for them. |
Interesting. Your efforts didn't stop the Madrid train bombing or the London bombings.
...or, wait a minute...you mean those weren't false flag ops? |
Honest Tone' won't even have a '9/11 C/omission report' style enquiry into 7/7, make of that what you will. |
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Pikey
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Pikey wrote: | | Quote: | | Siegel, Furlong, and Ross are not qualified to interpret seismic data, and they make several incorrect assumptions. Those who are qualified have discovered no inconsistencies with the mainstream account and categorically reject the notion of explosives |
I think that you will find that their presentation is being backed up by experts in that field. |
Please name names.
| Quote: | | Also there is Professor Steven E Jones of Brigham Young University and the Scholars for truth movement, www.st911.org, but I dont suppose they are suitably qualified either Chipmunk Stew! |
No, they are not. (BTW, you know that Jones has been put on academic leave by BYU, right?) |
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ComfortablyNumb
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: 911 Eyewitness Hoboken |
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| Quote: | | Siegel, Furlong, and Ross are not qualified to interpret seismic data, and they make several incorrect assumptions. Those who are qualified have discovered no inconsistencies with the mainstream account and categorically reject the notion of explosives. |
What are these incorrect assumptions? I want to get to crux of this.
Flight 11 Impact
LDEO seismic record 8:46:26
9/11 Commission FAA radar data time 8:46:40
14 seconds difference
| Quote: | | If Rodriguez claims that these explosions occurred before the crashes, then he's mistaken. There are several possible explanations for the explosions he heard after the crash: jet fuel poured down an elevator shaft and the vapors ignited; large debris dropped down an elevator shaft; etc. |
Well true we only has his word on that. He does recount two explosions.
Which elevator did the jet fuel pour down? The only elevators to be damaged was the local elevators that only goes up to the 34th floor from the B6. This was testimony of Lt William Walsh NYFD. Is this incorrect?
Was there not a fire door system that supposed to stop fires spreading up or down the elevator shafts. I understood this worked om the day.
| Quote: | | Seigel likely picked up wind noise, and the shaky video was likely the result of someone bumping the tripod. All other footage is absent the "explosion". |
Have you seen this video? From my experience this is not wind noise by any stroke of the imagination. However, there is still an inconstistancy compared to the other recording I referred to. The camera shake is not the point I'm making here. It's the fact it didn't pick up the noise of the 'explosion' recorded by Siegel.
| Quote: | | I'm not sure which clip you're referring to, but there's one that was circulating around for a while that showed video compression artifacts that people were calling "flashes." |
Its about half way though the documentary and is the collapse of WTC1 from Hoboken. This is not video compression in my view. Although I appreciate CCD flaring can mask what is really there especially in digital recording.
| Quote: | | The radiation measured in the dust and smoke at Ground Zero was only slightly above background levels. This slight increase was expected and nowhere near the levels of a nuclear detonation: |
Good! Clarifies that one!
| Quote: | | There is ample reason to doubt this documentary. |
Expand? I'm not being flipant here. I actually want to know why.
| Quote: | | If you want to protect your kids' future, don't get distracted by chasing ghosts. There are plenty of real-world concerns to focus on. |
I do consider my self to be a responsible parent, but thanks for the quidence!
And thank you for discussing the actual points I raised.
Regards |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | false flag terrorism was not born on 9/11 you know, |
Indeed, it wasn't. It has thrived in the fertile imaginiations of conspiracy theorists since time immemorial. |
Er...Operation Gladio anyone? Or did i just make that up.
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MiniMauve
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Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Agreed. A good post.
The problem with the CT mindset is that they are working from an a-priori premise: "9/11 was an inside job" |
This is simply not true. I always believed from the moment that it occurred that Bush & cronies would make as much political use of it as they could to further their own goals but I NEVER considered that they would in anyway have been involved in it. I couldn't imagine anyone being that inhuman. However, since the shock of 9/11, I had never watched videos of that day until this year. It was watching slow motion videos of the towers disintegrating that my mind changed. i remember thinking, "My God, someone really did set explosives!". I was horrified. From there it's a simple task of keeping your mind open, think logically, and follow the evidence.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | To them this sentence is the holy writ and informs every opinion regardless of evidence. As long as this is not the "fact" you are establishing you are correct. |
I won't deny there is this element amongst the Truth Movement but it is no less prevalent amongst the critics. It's human nature, I'd wager, unfortunately.
| Jay Ref wrote: | You see the CT theories (and as you seem already aware...there are many of them) are like Rube Goldberg devices. They all require way too many complex steps in order to explain the phenomenon. This (and their anti-government angle) are the main points that all CT's have in common.
As such all CT's also share another trait; they defy logic. Anyone who has studied logic knows of Occam's Razor.
| Quote: | Occam's razor states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off," those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. In short, when given two equally valid explanations for a phenomenon, one should embrace the less complicated formulation. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae (law of succinctness):
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,
which translates to:
entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.
Furthermore, when multiple competing theories have equal predictive powers, the principle recommends selecting those that introduce the fewest assumptions and postulate the fewest hypothetical entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. |
Illogical, unduly complex, vehemently anti-establishment, and promoted by people of questionable judgement. The CT phenomenon in a nutshell.
-z |
Occam's razor is a double-edged blade. It has been as useful to the Truth Movement as you claim it has been for you, starting with the idea that 20 arab terrorists directed by man in a cave in afghanistan who is afraid to use cellphones could pull this off.
The point is that government statements are no less assumptions than anyone else's.
_________________
Stick to what you KNOW. All else is disinformation, intended or not. |
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MiniMauve
Moderate Poster
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: | I have already signed it!
However, I want to stand on some solid ground and have some evidence that as they say, "to join up the dots". But, to push the mataphor a little further, I also want join the dots to make the correct picture.
If that means to ask some difficult questions or critique some evidence then that's just due process.
A lot of this stuff is open to interpretation, even by professionals let alone the rest of us who try and use a bit of common sense and strain to remember what we learned in 'O' level physics! |
Bravo. We need more like you here.
_________________
Stick to what you KNOW. All else is disinformation, intended or not. |
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Ignatz
Moderate Poster
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| MiniMauve wrote: |
....
It was watching slow motion videos of the towers disintegrating that my mind changed. i remember thinking, "My God, someone really did set explosives!". I was horrified. From there it's a simple task of keeping your mind open, think logically, and follow the evidence.
....
|
As a matter of interest MiniMauve, have you ever considered what kind of explosives could do the job?
Prof Jones' thermite, or what? |
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