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Ignatz
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 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: Molten metal |
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From :
http://www.alfed.org.uk/templates/alfed/content.asp?PageId=111
"The attached photograph is a good example of the behaviour of aluminium in the massive form in a fire. A car, with aluminium alloy wheels, was caught in a forest fire that swept over the car and moved on. Afterwards it was found that the aluminium wheels had melted, molten aluminium had run off and collected in a pool of metal which solidified as the fire moved on and the temperature fell. The aluminium had not burnt."
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telecasterisation
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Any chance you could elaborate on what specifically this is designed to illustrate? As it stands alone with no linking explanation, it means nothing either way.
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| telecasterisation wrote: | | Any chance you could elaborate on what specifically this is designed to illustrate? As it stands alone with no linking explanation, it means nothing either way. |
Sorry should have made iit clear ...
The possibility that molten metal (af any) at GZ was molten aluminium mixed with glowing hydrocarbons. Aluminium melts at around 600c and is frequenly melted in office and house fires. Steel is not.
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SHERITON HOTEL
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Sure it wasn't caused by friction? |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SHERITON HOTEL wrote: | | Sure it wasn't caused by friction? |
Of course it wasn't. Friction isn't the way heat was generated in the above picture.
By continuing to doubt frictions ability to heat metal under the right conditions belies a continuing, fundamental, flaw in your basic knowledge of physics. It's making you look like a dolt. |
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| As I understand Stephen Jones argument it is that what is seen on the video is molten metal, and it cannot be aluminium since molten aluminium is silver. But from what I remember of physics, bodies all tend to emit radiation of much the same frequency at the same temperature. Following that through, if the heating of the molten aluminium continues, there will come a temperature at which it glows red. Could it therefore be possible that part of the aircraft structure caught in the fire melted, the molten aluminium was trapped in the fire and continued to heat up, and escaped when whatever was holding it back burnt, shifted or gave way, forming a stream of red hot molten metal? No trapped hydrocarbons would be necessary. |
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chek
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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No it doesn't. Quote from the article :
"Inside a shadowed environment, with molten aluminum stationary, I – we – saw a beautiful pinkish glow from the aluminum. Then
we poured it out – and the stream was silvery!"
So looking down into a shaded hole at GZ why should we not see the pinkish glow of molten aluminium? And if it was partially covered in hydrocarbon debis why would that itself not glow at 600c ?
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chek
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | No it doesn't. Quote from the article :
"Inside a shadowed environment, with molten aluminum stationary, I – we – saw a beautiful pinkish glow from the aluminum. Then
we poured it out – and the stream was silvery!"
So looking down into a shaded hole at GZ why should we not see the pinkish glow of molten aluminium? And if it was partially covered in hydrocarbon debis why would that itself not glow at 600c ? |
If they had stated 'after scraping aside the oxideised slag...', but that is not referred to.
"For six months after Sept. 11, the ground temperature varied between 600 degrees Fahrenheit and 1,500 degrees, sometimes higher. “In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel,” Fuchek said. (Walsh, 2002)
(Note: not silvery aluminium)
Notice that the molten metal (probably not steel alone; see discussion below) was flowing down in the rubble pile early on; so it is not the case that the molten metal pools formed due to subterranean fires after the collapses. A video clip provides further eyewitness evidence regarding this extremely hot metal at ground zero: http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/videoarchive/red_hot_ground_zero_lo w_quality.wmv .
The observer notes that the observed surface of this metal is still reddish-orange some six weeks after 9-11. This implies a large quantity of a metal with fairly low heat conductivity and a relatively large heat capacity (e.g., iron is more likely than aluminum) even in an underground location. Like magma in a volcanic cone, such metal might remain hot and molten for a long time -- once the metal is sufficiently hot to melt in large quantities and then kept in a fairly-well insulated underground location. Moreover, as hypothesized below, thermite reactions may well have resulted in substantial quantities (observed in pools) of molten iron at very high temperatures – initially above 2,000 °C (3,632 °F). At these temperatures, various materials entrained in the molten metal pools will continue to undergo exothermic reactions which would tend to keep the pools hot for weeks despite radiative and conductive losses. Any thermite cutter charges which did not ignite during the collapse would also contribute to the prolonged heating.
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Thermite is a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum powder. The end products of the thermite reaction are aluminum oxide and molten iron. So the thermite reaction generates molten iron directly, and is hot enough to melt and even evaporate steel which it contacts while reacting. Here is the thermite-reaction equation for a typical mixture of aluminum powder iron oxide powder:2Al + Fe2O3= Al2O3+ 2Fe (molten iron), ΔH = − 853.5 kJ/mole. Thermite contains its own supply of oxygen and so the reaction cannot be smothered, even with water.
Remember the firesburned continously despite 'a lake' of water being poured on until 'Pyrocool' was tried. This chemical is used by the military for dousing naplam and thermite fires.
Themetal is seen to be yellow-hot, certainly above cherry-red hot. The following table
(see http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm ) provides data regarding the melting temperatures of lead, aluminum, structural steel and iron, along with approximate metal temperatures by color. Note that the approximate temperature of a hot metal is given by its color, quite independent of the composition of the metal. (A notable exception is falling liquid aluminum, which due to low emissivity and high reflectivity appears silvery-gray in daylight conditions, after falling through air 1-2 meters, regardless of the temperature at which the poured-out aluminum left the vessel. Aluminum does incandesce (glow) like other metals, but faintly, so that with the conditions described in the previous sentence (which prevailed at the WTC on 9/11), falling liquid aluminum will appear silvery-gray. Rapid oxidation of the hot flowing aluminum will contribute to the observed appearance. [Experiments: Jones, 2006])
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Page 8
Journal of 9/11 Studies 8 September 2006/Volume 3 °F °C K*Lead (Pb) Melts Faint Red Blood Red *Aluminum Melts Medium Cherry Cherry Bright Cherry Salmon Dark Orange Orange Lemon Light Yellow White *Structural Steel Melts *Iron Melts *Thermite (typical) 621 930 1075 1221 1275 1375 1450 1550 1630 1725 1830 1975 2200 2750 2800 >4,500 327 500 580 660 690 745 790 845 890 940 1000 1080 1205 1510 1538 >2500601 770 855 933 965 1020 1060 1115 1160 1215 1270 1355 1480 1783 1811 >2770
We see from the photograph above that solid metal from the WTC rubble existed at salmon-to-yellow-hot temperature (approx. 1550 - 1900 oF, 845 - 1040 oC.) The temperature is well above the melting temperatures of lead, zinc and aluminum, and these metals can evidentlybe ruled out since they would be runny liquids at much lower (cherry-red or below) temperatures. However, the observed hot specimen could be structural steel (from the building) or iron (from a thermite reaction) or a combination of the two. Additional photographs of the hot metal could provide further information and advance the research.
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Page 9
Journal of 9/11 Studies 9 September 2006/Volume 3 The following photograph has become available, evidently showing the now-solidified metal with entrained material, stored (as of November 2005) in a warehouse in New York: The abundance of iron (as opposed to aluminum) in this material is indicated by the reddish rust observed. When a sample is obtained, a range of characterization techniques will quickly give usinformation we seek. X-ray energy dispersive spectrometry (XEDS) will yield the elemental composition, and electron energy-loss spectroscopy will tell us the elements found in very small amounts that were undetectable with XEDS. Electron-backscattered diffraction in the scanning electron microscope will give us phase information; the formation of certain precipitates can tell us a minimum temperature the melt must have reached. We will endeavor to obtain and publish these data, whatever they reveal. An intriguing photograph found as Figure 9-44 in the NIST report provides evidence for a highly exothermic reaction at the corner of the South Tower just minutes before its collapse. Furthermore, failure occurs at this very corner of the Tower as seen in this video footage: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8564772103237441151&q=camerap lanet+9%2F11 .
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but I do not think that is good enough. When working with aluminium, as in casting it, there is clearly no need to heat it very much above its melting point, so there is no reason a British Aluminium worker would ever have seen it hotter. Similarly, Jones saw a faint glow, he says. Any metal will have only a faint glow as it first reaches the lower end of the temperature at which it will glow. Jones does not answer what it will look like when continued to be heated and then poured from a height.
His comparison experiments are all with thermite used as an incendiary, whereas to get the building to fall at approaching freefall speeds, in the CT version of events, thermate needs to explode, not burn.
Whether molten steel or aluminium or neither was found in the rubble pile during the clear-up, does nothing to show how the towers collapsed, as far as I can see. It is a red-hot herring. |
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chek
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: |
Sorry, but I do not think that is good enough. When working with aluminium, as in casting it, there is clearly no need to heat it very much above its melting point, so there is no reason a British Aluminium worker would ever have seen it hotter. Similarly, Jones saw a faint glow, he says. Any metal will have only a faint glow as it first reaches the lower end of the temperature at which it will glow. Jones does not answer what it will look like when continued to be heated and then poured from a height.
His comparison experiments are all with thermite used as an incendiary, whereas to get the building to fall at approaching freefall speeds, in the CT version of events, thermate needs to explode, not burn.
Whether molten steel or aluminium or neither was found in the rubble pile during the clear-up, does nothing to show how the towers collapsed, as far as I can see. It is a red-hot herring. |
I fully agree that the mechanism for such total collapse is still not understood.
It would take copious amounts of explosives to powderise the concrete floor pans so finely. Fragments of human bones were exploded to be found hundreds of yards away.
And yet vast amounts of paper were unaffected by the heat such a method would produce.
Theories about 'frictional' heat generation to explain the molten metal also fail to account for those elements.
It would take many key points of the structure to fail in exactly the right sequence to produce a symmetric collapse, and yet that's what happened.
We're still a long way from knowing the 'how' of it. |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: |
And yet vast amounts of paper were unaffected by the heat such a method would produce.
Theories about 'frictional' heat generation to explain the molten metal also fail to account for those elements. |
Wrong. No one claimed the heating was uniform nor global. It was localized and certainly non-uniform. In the areas of high heat, I assure you, no paper survived. The "frictional" theory lives, still. |
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aggle-rithm
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: |
I fully agree that the mechanism for such total collapse is still not understood.
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I understand it pretty well, actually. Once you get such a huge mass of concrete and steel moving, it won't stop until it hits something sturdy enough to absorb its massive kinetic energy, such as the ground. It will also tend to fall straight downwards, in accordance with gravity, unless it hits something sturdy enough to alter its course.
Since the kinetic energy was many times greater than the maximum load capacity of the towers, then the outcome is not surprising.
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It would take copious amounts of explosives to powderise the concrete floor pans so finely.
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And yet, when we ask CTers how all these explosives were snuck into the building without anyone noticing (including the construction manager, who died in the collapse), they say "it would only have taken a couple of suitcases worth to bring the building down".
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fragments of human bones were exploded to be found hundreds of yards away.
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If we know they were exploded, rather than just thrown clear by the massive release of potential energy that shot steel girders into buildings a block away, then we must know what type of explosives were used. What a breakthrough!
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And yet vast amounts of paper were unaffected by the heat such a method would produce.
Theories about 'frictional' heat generation to explain the molten metal also fail to account for those elements.
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According to...?
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It would take many key points of the structure to fail in exactly the right sequence to produce a symmetric collapse,
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According to...?
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and yet that's what happened.
We're still a long way from knowing the 'how' of it.
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Maybe you should read some of the engineering reports on the collapse. These are people who actually know what they're talking about, and aren't just making stuff up because it "seems" logical.
The one by NIST is pretty good. |
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