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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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 Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Ian with respect it's the shills that are the ones that are often seen to be the first to drag threads into a mire of disrespect. If I have to put up with their fairy tales and fantasy fiction why shouldn't they put up with a bit of ribbing.
| ian neal wrote: | | This is bs. The sheer arrogance of your position TTWSU3. Why do you polarise opinion in such a way? |
So you may have been responding to TTWSU3's lies in a knee-jerk kind of way?
My response was calculated to cause laughter amongst the more dedicated members here and that includes you Ian. I doubt if many people here believe anything that TTWSU3 says. I'm also pretty sure that most regular contributors are sick to death of the sh*t-storm this forum has become over the last few weeks. I think extreme damage is done to this forum by allowing blatant shilling to go on. Yes by all means give people a chance as they may be new to 911 Truth as I am. But when they are shown again and again to just be subverting discussions into chaos I don't understand why they aren't banned!
It's not difficult to see who's making real efforts to clarify the events of 911 and surrounding 911. It's also not difficult to see those who constantly keep trying to muddy the waters in an attempt to discredit this forum and the movement as a whole. But if the administrators and moderators don't want to use there powers to grow the movement of 911 Truth I suppose this forum will just continue to decay and then die! Now let's not start talking about the pros and cons of banning people as this place is a web forum and not a nuclear power.
Perhaps we need another sub-forum for theories as opposed to evidence. Then moderators can then move topics on the basis that there is no evidence to substantiate a members assertions.
_________________
We check the evidence and then archive it: www.911evidencebase.co.uk
Get the Steven E Jones reports >HERE< |
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hampton
Validated Poster
Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 310
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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what about:
"i bet you can tell me how many skyscrapers fell down on september 11"
"do you know how fast the buildings fell?"
"did you hear that 2 swiss Professors of Construction Engineering have said that WTC7 was with large probability brought down by controlled demolition experts"
Bachman
www.ibk.ethz.ch/emeritus/Bachmann
Schneider
www.ibk.ethz.ch/emeritus/schneider
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=5716
ttwsu3:
forgive me if the issue has been dealt with elsewhere but
what do you say if they ask you about eyewitnesses?
how many people have you lost at the point you mention the video trickery?
i've used this forum for over a year now and it's only recently i've noticed any destructive behaviour.
on the positive, maybe it's because the traffic has increased!
what's the website hit count?
how many unique ip addresses visit the site?
any interesting visitors?
eg. military, police, government, etc
_________________
Have No Fear! Peace, Love & Hemp is here!
Remember Tank Man (Tiananmen Sq)
Last edited by hampton on Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fallious
Moderate Poster
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 762
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Brown wrote: | | Yes by all means give people a chance as they may be new to 911 Truth as I am. But when they are shown again and again to just be subverting discussions into chaos I don't understand why they aren't banned! |
Quoted for truth. |
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THETRUTHWILLSETU3
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 1009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: The truth is a problem |
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| Skeptic wrote: | | THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: |
* the movement - the movement doesn't matter - the survival of the human race does |
and what do you think is the most pragmatic way of ensuring this survival? |
A revolution - mass disobedience - bring every City Centre to a standstill for at least a week and tell the Media why we are protesting - Tell them that when the reason we are protesting is on the front papers and on the main television and radio news - then we will suspend the protest.
THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES NEED TO READ
BRITAIN IS NOW A FASCIST STATE
WE HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU FOR DECADES
WE HAVE BEEN SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH ABOUT EVERYTHING
WE ARE THE PROPOGANDA MACHINE FOR HM GOVERNMENT
That's what needs to happen - trouble is most of you are SOFA truthers and are scared of being ridiculed or arrested THATS THE PROBLEM - YOU |
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Re: The truth is a problem |
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| THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | | Skeptic wrote: | | THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: |
* the movement - the movement doesn't matter - the survival of the human race does |
and what do you think is the most pragmatic way of ensuring this survival? |
A revolution - mass disobedience - bring every City Centre to a standstill for at least a week and tell the Media why we are protesting - Tell them that when the reason we are protesting is on the front papers and on the main television and radio news - then we will suspend the protest.
THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES NEED TO READ
BRITAIN IS NOW A FASCIST STATE
WE HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU FOR DECADES
WE HAVE BEEN SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH ABOUT EVERYTHING
WE ARE THE PROPOGANDA MACHINE FOR HM GOVERNMENT
That's what needs to happen - trouble is most of you are SOFA truthers and are scared of being ridiculed or arrested THATS THE PROBLEM - YOU |
Sweeping statements from someone who's main hypothesis to explain the near free fall speed collapse of the only three protected steel structures to ever fall in the history of mankind is...
...wait for it...
...the...
...half baked bean weapon.
_________________
We check the evidence and then archive it: www.911evidencebase.co.uk
Get the Steven E Jones reports >HERE< |
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THETRUTHWILLSETU3
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 1009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick your response doesn't merit a reply |
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | | Patrick your response doesn't merit a reply |
_________________
We check the evidence and then archive it: www.911evidencebase.co.uk
Get the Steven E Jones reports >HERE< |
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Skeptic
Validated Poster
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 485
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Re: The truth is a problem |
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| THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | | Skeptic wrote: | | THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: |
* the movement - the movement doesn't matter - the survival of the human race does |
and what do you think is the most pragmatic way of ensuring this survival? |
A revolution - mass disobedience - bring every City Centre to a standstill for at least a week and tell the Media why we are protesting - Tell them that when the reason we are protesting is on the front papers and on the main television and radio news - then we will suspend the protest.
THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES NEED TO READ
BRITAIN IS NOW A FASCIST STATE
WE HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU FOR DECADES
WE HAVE BEEN SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH ABOUT EVERYTHING
WE ARE THE PROPOGANDA MACHINE FOR HM GOVERNMENT
That's what needs to happen - trouble is most of you are SOFA truthers and are scared of being ridiculed or arrested THATS THE PROBLEM - YOU |
do the public not need convincing that revolution is necessary before it can occur? |
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THETRUTHWILLSETU3
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 1009
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Re: The truth is a problem |
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| Skeptic wrote: | | THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | | Skeptic wrote: | | THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: |
* the movement - the movement doesn't matter - the survival of the human race does |
and what do you think is the most pragmatic way of ensuring this survival? |
A revolution - mass disobedience - bring every City Centre to a standstill for at least a week and tell the Media why we are protesting - Tell them that when the reason we are protesting is on the front papers and on the main television and radio news - then we will suspend the protest.
THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES NEED TO READ
BRITAIN IS NOW A FASCIST STATE
WE HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU FOR DECADES
WE HAVE BEEN SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH ABOUT EVERYTHING
WE ARE THE PROPOGANDA MACHINE FOR HM GOVERNMENT
That's what needs to happen - trouble is most of you are SOFA truthers and are scared of being ridiculed or arrested THATS THE PROBLEM - YOU |
do the public not need convincing that revolution is necessary before it can occur? |
EXACTLY
The problem is most people still get their information from the mainstream media who are still shaping public opinion - so we need to cause so much disruption that they start reporting the truth.
How else do you think we can get the truth out? |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Brown wrote: | | Ian with respect it's the shills that are the ones that are often seen to be the first to drag threads into a mire of disrespect. |
Ah but here is the problem. Firstly it takes two to tango. I believe voices on both 'sides' have been disrespectful to the other at various times. Secondly the tendency to drag threads into polarised positions and swap insults achieves nothing and leaves accusations of shill flying from both 'sides'.
You may disagree with TTWSU3 (no problem there) but you have no way to know he is a shill, so best not make the accusation, even in half jest.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | If I have to put up with their fairy tales and fantasy fiction ............. |
My advise is that if these controversial theories are such evident fairy tales then
1) either trust that the vast majority will reach a similar conclusion and therefore these theories don't need fighting. They will simply wither on the vine
2) or they require careful and considered debunking, in which case write an evidence based paper to show it to be an impossible/unlikely hypothesis.
| ian neal wrote: | | This is bs. The sheer arrogance of your position TTWSU3. Why do you polarise opinion in such a way? |
This may have been OTT. What I was commenting on was not the validity or otherwise of the controversial theories, but TTWSU3's position that those who disagree with him are in denial or only disagree with his views because they worry about public credibility rather than 'the truth'
| Patrick Brown wrote: | It's not difficult to see who's making real efforts to clarify the events of 911 and surrounding 911. It's also not difficult to see those who constantly keep trying to muddy the waters in an attempt to discredit this forum and the movement as a whole. But if the administrators and moderators don't want to use there powers to grow the movement of 911 Truth I suppose this forum will just continue to decay and then die! Now let's not start talking about the pros and cons of banning people as this place is a web forum and not a nuclear power.
Perhaps we need another sub-forum for theories as opposed to evidence. Then moderators can then move topics on the basis that there is no evidence to substantiate a members assertions. |
I believe it is incredibly difficult to see who is attempting to discredit this forum and the movement as a whole (as in deliberately trying to destroy the thing they claim to support) and even harder to prove.
I think it is far from obvious that Fetzer, Wood et al and their supporters are DELIBERATELY trying to discredit 9/11 truth.
Anyway, this only strengthens my view that the best solution to the problems this forum creates is to make the whole forum non-public and only viewable to known 'members'. By taking the content out of the public realm I believe 'we' would find we have a lot less to argue over. Anyone having strong views over this possible solution should post in the site credibility thread or PM me
Best wishes
ian
FYI, this just posted on ST911.org
ANNOUNCEMENT: The Good News and the Bad
The bad news is that, as a consequence of an increasing disparity in our approach and attitude toward the science and the politics of 9/11 research, Steve Jones has resigned as a member of Scholars. He intends to continue his research on these events, however, and it is in all of our interests that his contributions to the community should continue. The good news is, because of the contentious nature of issues that have arisen, Scholars is organizing a conference to be devoted to
The Science of 9/11: Controversial Aspects
which will be held in mid- to late-July in Madison, WI. There will be a key-note speaker and five major sessions devoted to the issues that have tended to divide us. As the program chair, I am inviting Steve Jones to organize a panel discussion of the use of conventional means for destroying the Twin Towers. I am inviting Judy Wood to organize a panel discussion on non-conventional means, including high-tech directed energy weaponry, that might have been used to destroy the World Trade Center. I am inviting Morgan Reynolds to organize a panel on planes/no planes at the WTC and George Nelson on the Pentagon and Shanksville.
Another important dimension of our efforts, of course, is explaining why the "official account" that the government has advanced cannot be sustained. Since there can be disagreements even here about what we should or should not emphasize and what has or has not been proven to an extent sufficient to emphasize as a "refutation" of what we have been told, I am also inviting Barrie Zwicker to organize one further panel discussion on "disproofs" of the government's account, which, although mentioned last, will be scheduled for the opening session. I am planning on having five sessions of 2 1/2 to 3 hours duration.
While the program is at its tentative and preliminary stage, I am open to suggestions for possible participants and additional topics. There may be changes in the individuals responsible for some of these panels, but my expectation would be that their focus will remain the same. I anticipate imposing a registration fee of $100 for the week-end long conference, which will include a keynote address on Saturday evening. Anyone who has ideas they would like to share with me is welcome to forward them to me at jfetzer@d.umn.edu at their earliest convenience. This conference should provide an opportunity for experts on complex and technical scientific questions to share their research with us all.
James H. Fetzer
Founder
Scholars for 9/11 Truth |
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Fallious
Moderate Poster
Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 762
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Brown wrote: | | Yes by all means give people a chance as they may be new to 911 Truth as I am. But when they are shown again and again to just be subverting discussions into chaos I don't understand why they aren't banned! |
Quoted one last time, for truth. |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ANNOUNCEMENT: The Good News and the Bad |
Sorry, I've just got to laugh at ST9/11 polarising the debate, the irony is too rich
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Free your Self and Free the World |
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hampton
Validated Poster
Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 310
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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a few points:
regards sensible posting, massive quotes & large images make these threads a bit long
we could have an st911 style conference here 
registration: £20/day, £30/weekend, £10/half day + food
regards the private forum, how about setup a new forum on an invite only basis, via PMs? 
are 911 CT debunkers people openly campaigning in this direction?
eg. do they go on the streets with leaflets?
do they protest at meetings? i'd love to meet some 
we could just encourage people not to read papers (even free), watch tv news & adverts, etc.
i think only 40% buy papers.
surely that way they loose their power anyway.
and other alternatives would appear & be profitable.
how's the gov going to get it's message over then?
start knocking doors?
_________________
Have No Fear! Peace, Love & Hemp is here!
Remember Tank Man (Tiananmen Sq) |
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: The truth is a problem |
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| THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | | we need to cause so much disruption |
_________________
We check the evidence and then archive it: www.911evidencebase.co.uk
Get the Steven E Jones reports >HERE< |
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Skeptic
Validated Poster
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 485
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: The truth is a problem |
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| THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | | Skeptic wrote: | | THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: | | Skeptic wrote: | | THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote: |
* the movement - the movement doesn't matter - the survival of the human race does |
and what do you think is the most pragmatic way of ensuring this survival? |
A revolution - mass disobedience - bring every City Centre to a standstill for at least a week and tell the Media why we are protesting - Tell them that when the reason we are protesting is on the front papers and on the main television and radio news - then we will suspend the protest.
THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES NEED TO READ
BRITAIN IS NOW A FASCIST STATE
WE HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU FOR DECADES
WE HAVE BEEN SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH ABOUT EVERYTHING
WE ARE THE PROPOGANDA MACHINE FOR HM GOVERNMENT
That's what needs to happen - trouble is most of you are SOFA truthers and are scared of being ridiculed or arrested THATS THE PROBLEM - YOU |
do the public not need convincing that revolution is necessary before it can occur? |
EXACTLY
The problem is most people still get their information from the mainstream media who are still shaping public opinion - so we need to cause so much disruption that they start reporting the truth.
How else do you think we can get the truth out? |
I think you need to keep on with dissemination of info and general leafletting/ activism/ holding events until the movement reaches critical mass and civil disobedience would be effective thereafter
I understand you rpoint entirely, I'm just concerned that civil disobedience at this point would not be of a sufficient scale to have positive effect and would simply result in those involved getting arrested |
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telecasterisation
Banned
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1873
Location: Upstairs
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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It is interesting that we still view 'the public' and 'the people' as a unified mass.
This is only my opinion of course, but since the last world war, society has changed dramatically, any sense of unity and cohesion has long since vanished.
Historically speaking, survival depended on what bordered on communism, working the fields together, your effort combined with mine, ploughed the field, planted, irrigated and harvested the crop and if we didn't do that, we starved.
This is not the case today, we are individual family units, isolated pockets were society is supported by a strong network of commerce, all outside our sphere of responsibility. It all happens regardless of our individual contribution and consequently we care far far less about the outside world. Privatisation didn't help either, 'by the people, for the people', has been replaced by making a few very wealthy.
Using Diana's funeral as an example, this is the only time I can remember this nation grieving in living memory, it wasn't even like that when Churchill died, and I was alive then too. My dad got a free flimsy plastic 45rpm single free in National Geographic where we heard Churchill's funeral service. He played it over and over again and cried, he fought in the last war, was shot twice and it meant something to him that I couldn't relate to. Those times have gone.
We are essentially a nation that largely couldn't care about much. Technology is partially to blame, we have seen it all via the marvels of CGI, anything you can imagine can be put on the screen. We have lost our sense of wonder and if/when 9/11 is revealed as being a hoax, hopefully it will not seem just like the end of bad predictable movie and be forgotten in less than a day. |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| hampton wrote: |
regards the private forum, how about setup a new forum on an invite only basis, via PMs?
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Thanks hampton
This is precisely what I have in mind. And by making the forum private, hopefully the tensions that exist between different campaigners over their different understanding of where the truth lies and different campaigning strategies would melt away since it is no longer a public debate.
Then ideally the focus of the forum would move towards campaigning and raising public awareness rather than debating the latest research and internal squabbles. Meanwhile existing public forums (sympathetic to 9/11 truth) would continue to host wider public discussions, but would not be linked to the campaign and the campaign would communicate publically via weekly/regular bulletins
The reason this has not happened yet is that there is not concensus on this approach, so I'm still canvassing opinion. I particularly want to hear from people opposed to making the forums private/open. |
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scubadiver
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Meria Heller was on RBN live with Webster Tarpley and it was her opinion that the truth movement has stalled. I have to say I agree.
I think David Shayler's appearance on Sky News and the campaign making the local press in Ipswich and Devon is, IMO, a good development. |
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hampton
Validated Poster
Joined: 03 Sep 2005
Posts: 310
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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i think the rodriguez tour & the success of loose change has given us a boost.
it would be nice to see david's appearance on sky & the ipswich & devon press
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Have No Fear! Peace, Love & Hemp is here!
Remember Tank Man (Tiananmen Sq) |
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crazytmacy
New Poster
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Location: US of A
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Has anyone read Debunking 9/11 Myths by Popular Mechanics? Just wondering.... |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| crazytmacy wrote: | | Has anyone read Debunking 9/11 Myths by Popular Mechanics? Just wondering.... |
no need to wonder, thats a definate "YES"
(and a funky peice of fruit loopery it is to)
If you have specific questions about the *ahem* de-bunking, my advice is start a thread in critics corner, and if you genuine about asking questions, you will definately find members genuine about offering answers
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Free your Self and Free the World |
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crazytmacy
New Poster
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Location: US of A
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Why does the book lack validity? I've watched the videos, read the theories, and I do not understand why you would call it loopery. The book pulls information from the most credible people available, but it is consistently written off as propaganda. Now beyond the book, every engineer I have talked to completely agrees, so I guess what I'm wondering is who should we believe? |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| crazytmacy wrote: | | Why does the book lack validity? I've watched the videos, read the theories, and I do not understand why you would call it loopery. The book pulls information from the most credible people available, but it is consistently written off as propaganda. Now beyond the book, every engineer I have talked to completely agrees, so I guess what I'm wondering is who should we believe? |
And that's why we have a dedicated critics section. Understand that this site's position is that 9/11 was an inside job: the main forums are for discussion of evidance suggesting that conclusion. Counter views (such as Popular mechanics defense of the official theory) have their own section for discussion, and skeptic/critic posts made in the other forums will be moved into Critics Corner. Debate in there is very vigerous and will undoubtably cover any concerns or queries you may have. And of course, if you enter "Debunking 9/11 myths" into the site search function you will turn up multiple threads to read through. For more detailed info on why popular Mechanics does not "stand up", please continue to seek answers in the appropriate section
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Cruise4
Validated Poster
Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 292
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: I believe the fight is against the NWO |
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| and 9/11 is but one aspect. Tell them the whole truth and make it clear we are coming for them. The NWO have lost already... they just don't know it yet. We wake the people ANY way we can and march onto bayonets if we have to. If we fail God is going to wipe them anyway. Thats what they need to understand. |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: Re: I believe the fight is against the NWO |
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| Cruise4 wrote: | | and 9/11 is but one aspect. Tell them the whole truth and make it clear we are coming for them. The NWO have lost already... they just don't know it yet. We wake the people ANY way we can and march onto bayonets if we have to. If we fail God is going to wipe them anyway. Thats what they need to understand. |
Hi Cruise4 and welcome
Here's my take.
9/11 is but one aspect .... totally agree.
NWO has already lost .... I admire your faith. They haven't lost yet but they inevitably will.
Once enough people have woken up to the truth about 9/11, the momentum for change will be irresistible. But there won't be any need to march on to their bayonets. We need to recognise that once we have a critical mass, non-violent civil disobedience will bring the system to its knees and the rank and file in the police and military will side with the people. Don't believe me, just remember how a small group of fuel protesters brought the country to a grinding halt. The choice is ours.
Now this is my particular take on God. God is you, me and yes 'them' as well. God is not going wipe any one away. As someone once said infinite love is the only truth, everything else is an illusion. When you substitute the word love for the word God, it becomes clear that the concept of God judging and wiping away 'them' does not fit with God = infinite love.
So if some of us are waiting for 'God' to act independently of us to put the world right, we will continue to wait. God/Love acts through us and is not separate from us. The only way we will create heaven on earth is by being inspired (by God/Love) to create the change we wish to see. No one else will do it. That is the way life works. Anyway that's my understanding of the 'truth'.
At the end of the day all we are saying is give peace a chance. |
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Cruise4
Validated Poster
Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 292
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: Hmmm |
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God means all things to all men. You refer to an individual.
I didn't. Within, without, the force, interpret whatever way you, as an individual, feel comfortable with. God is a word, not an argument. the
meaning is up to you. |
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