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Ignatz
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:30 pm Post subject: The Truther Challenge |
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( throughout this post, any reference to Thermite shall be taken to include Thermate, nano-thermate etc. Basically, any incendiary that is based on the aluminothermic reaction between aluminium and iron oxide, with or without special additives)
9/11 truthers seem to have an almost pathological addiction to the idea of the use of thermite for CD at the WTC. They also talk as though access to the core columns of WTC1+2 requires little more than opening a trap door and swinging, Tarzan-like, between columns, slapping on some thermite and detonators along the way.
They ignore the fact that thermite is not used by CD professionals.
They ignore the fact that detonation will be a huge issue, and hampered (to say the least) by exploding aircraft.
They gloss over the issue of gaining access over a long period of time in very busy office buildings.
They ignore the fact that thermite will tend to burn downwards through any containment vessel quicker than through 4" thick steel columns.
They ignore, in fact, just about every actual difficulty that actual people would encounter with this thermite plot.
I'm not even asking them to mimic those vast logistical and technical challenges in
The Truther Challenge
Just do this, to mimic applying thermite to the inside of a steel box column (thanks to Chek for some of the ideas) :
-- Build a 12"x12" chipboard box, as high as you like (though 3' should do)
-- Allow an access panel on one side at the top, to do the rest...
-- Stuff it with something (rockwool, a football/beachball?) , to allow a layer of :
-- Cement/mortar (or whatever) to mimic the layer of liquid ceramic fireproof cement that will set and stop the thermite burning down rather than out. Given the distance to be spanned by the set cement, I'd guess 4" might work. You'll find out.
-- Apply a layer of (say) sand to mimic the thermite. Bear in mind we need to burn sideways through a few inches of steel. I suggest 3" of sand around the edge. (The football idea might be good, as it allows a deeper layer at the edge close to the steel.)
-- Time (after practice) and photograph the process and weigh the resulting wedge of stuff, inside the box (remove one side with the rest clamped together or - ideally - make one side of perspex in the first place)
The only purpose here is simply to get a handle on the quantities required, and the technique of applying it. Whether the arrangement would be technically effective in practice is not the issue.
If any Truther will even agree to having a crack at this I'll post a cheque for £500 payable to the NSPCC, dated 01/06/07, to Andrew Johnson. On receipt of your photos and weighings I will refund your incidental costs. If required I'll pay your costs in advance on sight of your bills, but it sounds cheap to me.
All details are negotiable. You might well come up with a much better approach.
No payment required or expected from you.
I'd do it myself, but if you won't believe NIST I'm sure you won't believe me.
Any takers?
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kc
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Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 359
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I have a second, probably easier challenge. Dawned on me when I saw someon claim the Naudet brothers were shills and liars who should be polygraphed.
Why not produce a pamphlet stating this belief, then post it to them including your solicitors name and adress. If they dont get back, you know you;re right, if they take you to court you can get legal aid for a free 11/9 truth trial!!
Cmarn, orderly Q, chemists to the left of me, slanderers to the right! |
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marky 54
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| tests have already been done as far as im aware. however you dont believe the results so why would you believe ours? its not a case of what is more difficult to carry out but rather what fits the evidence, ie: whats the most probable cause. numerous things have been tested including what nist claims and the results did'nt match. thermate was identical to the reaction and end product found/seen in the towers. if there was a conspiracy who knows how long or how much planning went into it. if it was'nt a conspiracy then someone needs to find out what the reaction was and why the molten iron was present after collapse of all 3 buildings in all 3 buildings if it was'nt thermate. i don't see how anything we do is going to change anyones mind, you should be asking someone who you can trust and is qualified and unbiased, then you can ridicule him when the results come through and make sure he quits his job. |
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| marky 54 wrote: |
.... you should be asking someone who you can trust and is qualified and unbiased, then you can ridicule him when the results come through and make sure he quits his job. |
By getting somebody who is biased towards CD theory, the results will be much more reliable. They will have a vested interest in favouring the use of thermite.
The point is simply to demonstrate the volumes and weights of materials required, and the practical issues of applying the stuff. If such an experiment has already been carried out, perhaps you kindly provide a link.
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marky 54
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | marky 54 wrote: |
.... you should be asking someone who you can trust and is qualified and unbiased, then you can ridicule him when the results come through and make sure he quits his job. |
By getting somebody who is biased towards CD theory, the results will be much more reliable. They will have a vested interest in favouring the use of thermite.
The point is simply to demonstrate the volumes and weights of materials required, and the practical issues of applying the stuff. If such an experiment has already been carried out, perhaps you kindly provide a link. |
or maybe i just dont want to go around in circles on pointless arguements. anything is possible with the right planning and resources, just because it may seem hard to do dosnt make it impossible. how the heck do you think they built the pyramids, it took time and planning but they did it didnt they? more than once and with primitive tools. |
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DaveyJ
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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yeah...but people noticed them doing it
________
Mercedes-Benz SL-Class specifications
Last edited by DaveyJ on Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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marky 54
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: |
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dosnt change the fact they achieved what many thought was the impossible. the people who said they could be built were proberbly called tin foil hat wearers in ancient terms by most. as were people who said the earth was round back in the days of everyone believing it was flat.
its not a case of what you believe can be acheived, its a case of what there is evidence for and what most likely fits that evidence. the how is never impossible with the right resources and know how. the evidence for thermate can not simply be dismissed because we believe it to be impossible to do if there is evidence for thermate.
i could do tests till the cows come home and all tests fail, what does it prove? would it prove it is impossible? or would it mean i dont have access to the same resources to get the desired result?
no matter how hard we believe it to be dosnt make it impossible. |
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| marky 54 wrote: | | dosnt change the fact they achieved what many thought was the impossible. |
Which Egyptian said it was impossible? You're just making up meaningless dribble there.
| marky 54 wrote: |
its not a case of what you believe can be acheived, its a case of what there is evidence for and what most likely fits that evidence. the how is never impossible with the right resources and know how. the evidence for thermate can not simply be dismissed because we believe it to be impossible to do if there is evidence for thermate.
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Where'e the evidence for themite/ate?
Iron slag?
Barium residues?
Haven't seen any evidence of those myself. Perhaps you can help.
| marky 54 wrote: |
i could do tests till the cows come home and all tests fail, what does it prove? would it prove it is impossible? or would it mean i dont have access to the same resources to get the desired result? |
If every cut on every column required 30kgs of bulky materials and 3 days for application and setting time, then we don't have proof it couldn't be done (that will never be possible to "prove"), but we have evidence of its unlikelihood. Take down the mirror in the ladies' loo, take down the drywall, remove battens, plumbing, climb in, climb up, remove fireproofing, start delving around one-handed in a box column applying liquid ceramic fireproof cement while strapped to a metal column....
Get the picture? All I'm asking is for someone to try it in broad daylight, in open space and on level ground. Gotta be easier.
| marky 54 wrote: | | no matter how hard we believe it to be dosnt make it impossible. |
See my comment above. It doesn't need to be "impossible" to be too difficult to be worth the attempt.
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marky 54
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | marky 54 wrote: | | dosnt change the fact they achieved what many thought was the impossible. |
Which Egyptian said it was impossible? You're just making up meaningless dribble there.
| marky 54 wrote: |
its not a case of what you believe can be acheived, its a case of what there is evidence for and what most likely fits that evidence. the how is never impossible with the right resources and know how. the evidence for thermate can not simply be dismissed because we believe it to be impossible to do if there is evidence for thermate.
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Where'e the evidence for themite/ate?
Iron slag?
Barium residues?
Haven't seen any evidence of those myself. Perhaps you can help.
| marky 54 wrote: |
i could do tests till the cows come home and all tests fail, what does it prove? would it prove it is impossible? or would it mean i dont have access to the same resources to get the desired result? |
If every cut on every column required 30kgs of bulky materials and 3 days for application and setting time, then we don't have proof it couldn't be done (that will never be possible to "prove"), but we have evidence of its unlikelihood. Take down the mirror in the ladies' loo, take down the drywall, remove battens, plumbing, climb in, climb up, remove fireproofing, start delving around one-handed in a box column applying liquid ceramic fireproof cement while strapped to a metal column....
Get the picture? All I'm asking is for someone to try it in broad daylight, in open space and on level ground. Gotta be easier.
| marky 54 wrote: | | no matter how hard we believe it to be dosnt make it impossible. |
See my comment above. It doesn't need to be "impossible" to be too difficult to be worth the attempt. |
your asking the impossible of most of us, unless you think i have a stack of thermate somewhere  why in an open space? i would'nt exactly class the towers as open space, no your right there is NO evidence of thermite anywhere near the towers, if you ignore it.
i'd like to know who has suggested there was a cut on EVERY column apart from you? also were all beams unaccessable without going through the wall (do you even know)?
qoute:
See my comment above. It doesn't need to be "impossible" to be too difficult to be worth the attempt [qoute]
that would depend on how long you planned for and how despreate you were/how badly you needed it, still not impossible either way.
[qoute]Which Egyptian said it was impossible? You're just making up meaningless dribble there.[qoute]
are you suggesting a critic is a technological wonder of modern times? if not its safe to assume that some people were critical that the huge stones could not be taken to the top of the pyrimid and therefore believed it to be impossible. |
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| marky 54 wrote: |
your asking the impossible of most of us, unless you think i have a stack of thermate somewhere why in an open space? .... |
Bloody hell. Read the original post eh?
I'm suggesting a relatively convenient task as an experiment.
If the experiment turns out to be really difficult, the reality would be that much harder, eh? What with clambering around in the darkness, hanging from steel girders and columns trying not to be noticed and dropping 20kg of thermite into the electrics by mistake?
As opposed to pottering about in your back yard with cement and sand, with a nice cup of tea every now and then. Get it?
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marky 54
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | marky 54 wrote: |
your asking the impossible of most of us, unless you think i have a stack of thermate somewhere why in an open space? .... |
Bloody hell. Read the original post eh?
I'm suggesting a relatively convenient task as an experiment.
If the experiment turns out to be really difficult, the reality would be that much harder, eh? What with clambering around in the darkness, hanging from steel girders and columns trying not to be noticed and dropping 20kg of thermite into the electrics by mistake?
As opposed to pottering about in your back yard with cement and sand, with a nice cup of tea every now and then. Get it? |
mmmm trying not to be noticed.... so its hard to blend in? how many people do you think thought ah look a man with maintenace/secruity written on his back he must be rigging the building(not saying thats how but pointing out how you can blend in). area of limits due to maintenace maybe? there lots of ways not to be noticed. as for your darkness talk you forgot about an invention called a torch, you can even get them on hats its amazing they enable you to work without holding the torch.
hanging from steel girders? so you admit you can access them without banging a hole in an office wall?. dropping the thermite into the electrics, well that would of been a risk, although most electrics come in cable so not to be a danger or sealed for saftey, however best to be safe and have a power down that way if you drop any you can get it cleared up before restoring the power.
that just leaves the clambering around not hard if you trained for that sort of thing. although i must admit it may seem hard to someone who has never done that type of thing before. i'd find climbing a cliff hard unless i learned how to do it, but a rockclimber would'nt. |
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kc
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Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 359
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | how many people do you think thought ah look a man with maintenace/secruity written on his back he must be rigging the building |
Dont know about the other occupants, but I know you couldnt get into the Aon offices in WTC without an office specific pass signed for and checked by a member of staff. Thats AFTER getting past the front door and the security restrictions there. |
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Thermate
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Joined: 13 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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How about you prove 19 muslims crashed into the towers under orders from OBL first?
Evidence for thermate/ite: huge sulphur residues on the steel at groundzero, mentioned (but not explained) in the FEMA report. molten iron 'flowing' in the basement weeks/months after the collapses, evidenced by satellite hotspot imagery and credible witness video testimony (NYFD/NYPD).
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Thermate wrote: | | How about you prove 19 muslims crashed into the towers under orders from OBL first? |
Irrelevant to this discussion. The supposed CD followed the aircraft impacts and fires. Thermite/ate demolition theory is yours. Let's discuss it and investigate the practicalities, eh? Or don't you have the guts to live up to your sig?
| Thermate wrote: |
Evidence for thermate/ite: huge sulphur residues on the steel at groundzero, mentioned (but not explained) in the FEMA report. molten iron 'flowing' in the basement weeks/months after the collapses, evidenced by satellite hotspot imagery and credible witness video testimony (NYFD/NYPD). |
Fine - so we're back on track with the OP. How would this stuff be applied to the columns so that it could cut sideways? Come up with an idea. Anything plausible would be good. Chek had a try but then lost interest.
Over to you
(p.s. it's FDNY)
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Thermate
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Thermate wrote: | | Evidence for thermate/ite: huge sulphur residues on the steel at groundzero, mentioned (but not explained) in the FEMA report. molten iron 'flowing' in the basement weeks/months after the collapses, evidenced by satellite hotspot imagery and credible witness video testimony (FDNY/NYPD). |
| Ignatz wrote: | | Over to you |
Woah there! I asked first! Or you just gonna play the standard, by-the-book "i ask a question, you ask another one in reply' bs? Explain the molten iron? Without involving a thermate/ite reaction? Explain the sulphur? Hmmm...?
Aww, thx.
I would imagine there are many ways for a well funded military/black ops demolition department to deploy thermate/ite. Grenades are known to exist for destroying field artillery, tanks etc. Satchel charges, moulded shape charges, filling the base of the core column area are all possibilities, it doesn't take too much imagination. But I guess as a truth shirker that's something you clearly lack... or are paid to lack.
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Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Thermate wrote: | | Thermate wrote: | | Evidence for thermate/ite: huge sulphur residues on the steel at groundzero, mentioned (but not explained) in the FEMA report. molten iron 'flowing' in the basement weeks/months after the collapses, evidenced by satellite hotspot imagery and credible witness video testimony (FDNY/NYPD). |
| Ignatz wrote: | | Over to you |
Woah there! I asked first! Or you just gonna play the standard, by-the-book "i ask a question, you ask another one in reply' bs? Explain the molten iron? Without involving a thermate/ite reaction? Explain the sulphur? Hmmm...?
Aww, thx.
I would imagine there are many ways for a well funded military/black ops demolition department to deploy thermate/ite. Grenades are known to exist for destroying field artillery, tanks etc. Satchel charges, moulded shape charges, filling the base of the core column area are all possibilities, it doesn't take too much imagination. But I guess as a truth shirker that's something you clearly lack... or are paid to lack. |
You are of course deliberately ignoring the point of the whole thread, which is the attraction of thermite/thermate to the conspiracist mind, and whether it can be demonstrated to be possible to use it in the way suggested, NOT for once an exercise in imagination. We do know just how very good truthshirkers are in imagining things.
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Thermate
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Thermate wrote: | | Explain the molten iron? Without involving a thermate/ite reaction? Explain the sulphur? |
Hmmm...? 
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Bushwacker
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Thermate wrote: | | Thermate wrote: | | Explain the molten iron? Without involving a thermate/ite reaction? Explain the sulphur? |
Hmmm...? |
Not the point of the thread, old son.
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Thermate wrote: |
Woah there! I asked first! Or you just gonna play the standard, by-the-book "i ask a question, you ask another one in reply' bs? Explain the molten iron? Without involving a thermate/ite reaction? Explain the sulphur? Hmmm...?
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Go to the top of the thread and start reading again.
Then look for someone who's changing the subject, because it certainly isn't me.
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marky 54
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| kc wrote: | | Quote: | | how many people do you think thought ah look a man with maintenace/secruity written on his back he must be rigging the building |
Dont know about the other occupants, but I know you couldnt get into the Aon offices in WTC without an office specific pass signed for and checked by a member of staff. Thats AFTER getting past the front door and the security restrictions there. |
is that presuming they needed access to the offices or did that count no matter where they went? who was in charge of the secruity at the time?
and were passes fakeable? |
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marky 54
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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the point of this thread is meaningless, i certainly have only said there is evidence for thermate being present, i didnt claim to know how they applied it and would just be guessing even if i came up with a convincing way.
the point you are missing is just because we dont know how they did it dosnt mean there is no evidence for thermate. you are asking us to guess, dose that mean you know how it was applied and will tell us if we are right?
who ever carried it out would of had training , the right type of equipment and method know how. anything anyone guesses solves nothing because there is no guarentee thats how it would of been applied, WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT OF ASKING FOR AN FAIR INVESTIGASTION!
you cannot ignore the evidence just because you dont see how it would of been applied, only an ivestigastion would solve that and how possible it would be ect. maybe someone with military knowlegde or something of the sort may know how it would be possible to apply it as they would have a better understanding of whats availble to use. i however dont know what is available to use but sure they have techniques to bring down buildings, as do the controlled demoltion industry.
but again i know controlled demolition is possible they destroy buildings all the time but how they apply the charge and how many people it would take and how much time i dont know. that dosnt mean they don't/carnt do it because i dont understand the method personally. all i know is they can destroy any building in the world so why would the twin towers be impossible? especially when there is evidence of it, again thats why people are asking for an fair investigastion that dosnt skip over or miss out points/evidence.
from reading jref i see most there are more bothered about debunking issues rather than getting to the absolute truth, its like its more important to debunk even if you know its a lie. which is what this thread is attempting to do by asking a question nobody would know for sure untill an new investigastion is opened. its a dead end question asking the impossible unless you have knowledge of military/CD industry. the only thing people can say for sure is what there is evidence off, the how only those that did it will know as it stands.
i dont know how, but thats because i dont know about whats available to use for such things. that dos'nt mean it carnt be done or wasnt done. |
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Chek has been very quiet lately.
Maybe he's busy with the ol' Black+Decker ??
Any takers? C'mon. It's easy.
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Thermate
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: |
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I saw film of one of their devices in action on another forum. The 'cutter' was about 20x the diameter of the dinky little wire it was cutting.
I'll see if I can round up the film later on ...
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