Why it matters that there were no planes

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

For those of you that continue to argue against - have you actually read this --- if so and you still believe there were please --- tell us what your line of thinking is?

Copyright:Gerard Holmgren. Aug 14 2006. This material may be freely reproduced as long as it is not for commercial purposes. Please cite the authors name, the date, the web address where you found it, and the copyright notice.
WHY IT MATTERS THAT THERE WERE NO PLANE CRASHES ON SEPT 11. Page 1 of 2.

This is a transcript of a speech which I gave (by telephone from Sydney) to the TV Fakery Conference in New York on August 13 2006.

Hello, I’m Gerard Holmgren and the topic for my talk is an often raised question—why does it matter that there were no planes?

I have 6 points in response to this question.

The first is what I call “the mirror”.

Imagine yourself listening to a speech by a mainstream peace activist who says something like

“The hijackers who flew those planes into the buildings were fanatics and George Bush is a fanatic. We need to be rid of the fanatics on both sides. A violent response is not the answer to this problem.”

Afterwards you say to them

“That’s fair enough in so far as it goes, but what you need to realize is that there weren't any crazy Arabs flying those planes. The Govt did the whole thing itself.”

And they say

“You’re nuts”.

So you start giving them some evidence—to which they have no answer, and as they start to see that they can’t refute your evidence, then they shift ground and say

“Well, why does it matter, anyway ? We already have more than enough evidence to show that US foreign policy is both unjust and a total failure and the cause of the problem.”

To which you reply

“I’ve just demonstrated solid evidence that the Govt planned and carried out the attacks itself and you say that it doesn't matter ? And that people don’t need to know this ? Indeed that they should *not* be made aware of this ?”

They respond

“Look. It’s hard enough to get people to oppose Govt policy without hitting them with these wild conspiracy theories about the Govt murdering thousands of its own people. Even if you’re right, people will never believe you. It only discredits the peace movement. And it doesn't matter, because we can already show them that a violent response only makes the problem worse.”

To which you reply

“So you still believe in crazy Arabs flying the planes?”

And they answer

“I’m saying that it doesn't matter who flew the planes. We need to be rid of the fanatics on both sides. The hijackers who flew the planes were fanatics. Bush is a fanatic. A violent response will not solve the problem.”

This is a classic fruit loop.

Do you feel frustrated with conversations like this ?

If so, and if you are someone who asserts that it doesn't matter whether there were any planes—then take a look in the mirror, because in the previous conversation, the person with whom you were arguing was yourself.

2.

Point two is the question of truth. This word is used ad-nauseam in relation to the debate over Sept 11. Crashing planes are at the core of the official story.

If you are saying that it doesn't matter whether or not the plane story is true, then you are saying that the truth doesn't matter.

If you believe that some other kind of agenda is more important than the truth, then say so up front and openly argue the philosophical position that truth does not matter.

But if so, then do not call yourself the “truth movement” and do not keep talking about exposing the truth of Sept 11. This is double think.
Either finding and exposing the truth—wherever it leads—is your mission or it isn’t. One or the other.

3.

My third point is that bad founding assumptions lead to bad conclusions no matter how careful the subsequent chain of research and logic. And bad conclusions lead to bad decisions.

The previously mentioned speech by the mainstream peace activist is an example. If their founding assumption had been correct—that Arab fanatics flew planes into buildings, then everything in their speech would have been perfectly reasonable. Instead, they were talking destructive and misleading babble, working directly against the cause which they claimed to support.

This destructive effect was due entirely to a false assumption being at the root of their entire position. This basic principle applies to everyone involved in public debate of any sort. As long as your founding assumption is wrong then you’ll finish up talking up rubbish, no matter how well researched, thought out and how well intended the subsequent steps may be.

There is enough danger of false assumptions due to genuine mistakes and due to difficulty obtaining accurate information without deliberately manufacturing them through a conscious policy of building one’s entire case on what one knows to be a false assumption.

4.

It’s sometimes asserted that we have all the evidence we need to show that it was an inside job. I’ve already demonstrated the problem with such an approach, by means of the argument with the peace activist. But there is a further problem with such an approach.

An inside job by who ? The Govt ? That’s only part of the story. The TV fakery on the Sth tower hit proves that the media was just as big a player as the Govt.
Govts come and go, but if the media which was a major player in organizing the psy-op remains in power, then nothing has changed. Hanging out a few patsies who have outlived their usefulness -like Bush and Silverstein—may satisfy a primitive thirst for revenge but it leaves fully intact the criminal infrastructure which organized the deception. In fact it strengthens it by giving the misleading appearance that the truth has been exposed and that justice has been done, while actually leaving the high level perpetrators fully in control and ready to move on to the next chapter of their deception.

If the media gets away with showing us a cartoon and passing it off as news in such brazen fashion, and then gets Govt patsies to take the fall, do you think they’ll only do it once ? And with continuing improvements in digital technology, the next one will be harder to pick if people have not been made aware that this sort of thing is happening

Also, this is strongly relevant to my previous point—that bad information leads to bad decisions. There is an obsession within the movement with trying to use the mainstream media as the vehicle to tell the so called -truth about the event.

If it were the case that the Govt had organized the whole thing, and that the media had been simply swept along by the tide, not knowing how to deal with the situation, and fallen into line because it simply didn’t have the courage or the knowledge to resist the situation, then exposure of the truth through the mainstream media might be a plausible aim.

But the knowledge that the media was a full and willing partner in organizing the entire deception, should make it obvious that disclosure of the full truth through that same media an absurd and impractical aim. If they allow limited amounts of truth to leak into the media, this is only because it is part of their plan to continue the deception and move it forward to the next chapter.

Selective truth can be as deceptive as lies.

The media might hang out the Govt , but it wont hang out itself, and this means that it will never facilitate disclosure of the full truth.

It’s like knowing that the police are running the local drug gangs and yet still going to them with information, expecting them to genuinely act on it, and then cheering because eventually they bust one of the gangs, when in actual fact, they’ve done it only to make people think that they’re doing something, and all it represents is a change in alliances within the trade, and a change in the details of how they’re going to keep running the trade.

If you can get something into the media without actually lying, then fine. But the moment you start making deals with them and calling that truth, then you become as bad as, if not worse than the Republicrats.

5.

Point five goes well beyond the implications of Sept 11 as a specific issue.
Sept 11 is not only a major driver of world policy and community attitudes, it’s iconic images are a major driver of the fundamental psyche and world view of the whole planet. Iconic images in people’s minds—things like a mushroom cloud, a Nazi rally, a starving African child, the moon landing—form a very important part of people’s views in the area where fact meets mythology.

There can be little doubt that the image of cartoon 175 approaching the Sth tower has already become one of the top iconic images of the last 100 years. And that if unchallenged, then it will continue to heavily influence the psyche of much of the world for many years to come—perhaps several generations.

There will be widely differing responses to it, both emotionally and in terms of political and social responses. There will be furious arguments over what it really means, why it happened, who did it, how various people should have responded and whether it could happen again.

All of this analysis and emotional response over a cartoon. A delusion.

This means an entire world gripped by mass delusion. An entire world where even the most intelligent analysts and compassionate activists are effectively insane. This relates strongly to my previous point that bad assumptions and bad information lead to bad decisions. If a cartoon is allowed to become one of the most iconic images driving people’s world view— thinking that the cartoon is real—then everyone will be making a lot of bad decisions. *No-one* will be able to make intelligent analysis or good decisions about almost anything, not matter how well intended or otherwise intelligent they may be.

For the manipulators, having the entire world worrying and arguing over the meaning of a cartoon as if it were real means mass delusion, which means that mass mind control, however and wherever they choose becomes easier than ever.

6.

The final point is if we are to look at each single piece of evidence on Sept 11, purely from the point of view of how well it covers the events of the day, then the TV fakery is *the* most important thing.

Why ? Because it proves many other points of evidence as well as itself.

For example, demolition proves demolition, but does not prove stand down, or hijacker ID fakery. They remain as completely independent arguments.

By contrast, TV fakery solves all three questions in one hit. It proves demolition—no more arguments about jet fuel fires, no more arguments about whether there were any Arabs on the planes, and it solves the mystery of why we haven't found the stand down order and why no one in the Air Force has come forward—it’s because there wasn’t any stand down order, because there didn’t need to be, because there weren't any hijacked planes.

Every other piece of evidence, while useful in proving one specific point and in demonstrating in a general sense that we have been lied to, leaves many significant loose ends.

Let me give you an example. The demolition by itself enables the whole hijacker myth to stand. A criminal group within the business community simply knew what was going to happen and decided to take advantage of the situation by using it as a cover to demolish the buildings and then criminal elements within the govt covered up for them retrospectively.

So then we need to add the stand down evidence to show that the Govt was also actively complicit in allowing to happen. While that research is excellent in so far as it goes, in showing that the official story is impossible to believe, it creates as many problems as it solves. It leaves us with a vague and embarrassing silence on trying to be specific about the exact mechanism of how such an order would have been issued, distributed enforced, and then covered up from top to bottom.

That would require a coordinated conspiracy of a far greater magnitude and risk than the TV fakery , which could have been done by a relatively small group of people.

Secondly it leaves us with a real headache in terms of logically extrapolating from the stand down situation. Put yourself in the position of the hijackers. What kind of idiot would plan to crash two planes into the towers, and then expect to be able to attack the pentagon 3/4 of an hour later and then expect to be able to attack the White House another 1/2 hour after that ?

The hijackers were seriously so stupid that never even considered the question of likely response from the air force ? They made an incredibly stupid plan which had no hope whatsoever of succeeding, but by an amazing coincidence the Govt had found out about it, and decided to let it happen ?

Not very plausible really. So to get around this, you have to conclude that the hijackers actually knew that the air force was going to be stood down for them.
Which means that hijackers and the Govt were actually working together. In which case why would Islamic fanatics commit suicide to help the US govt ? Which means that they weren’t Islamic fanatics. They were USG agents.
In which case, is it normal for top USG operatives to do suicide missions ?
So you try to solve this problem by considering remote controlled planes.

Which then creates the problem of why electronically hijack real flights with crew who might be able to ruin the plot, rather than use decoy drones ? Which then leads you on to substitute drones to try to solve that problem. Etc, etc.

As long as there are planes in the story, then each layer which is peeled back creates as many new problems as it solves.

This of course, is inevitable with any story if its central core is fiction. The most efficient way to bust a fictitious story is to go straight for its fictitious core, rather than keep chasing the tangential lies which were spin offs to try to cover the main lie.

As soon as you realize that there weren't any planes, then every significant loose end is tied up. The only remaining loose ends are things which are as a result of simply lacking enough specific enough information, such ,as who of the alleged passengers is a real dead person and how did they actually die ?

And although they are unsolved details they do not actually inconsistent with any of the answers which have been found, unlike the problems we saw earlier in the stand down story.

They are merely finer details , waiting to mopped up.

As long as planes remain in the story, it’s like slamming cupboard doors. You close one , and another swings open, and leaves the so called truth with almost as many holes as the official story.

Leaving planes in the story condemns opponents of the official story to a constant game of chasing ones own tail in a futile effort to tie up the loose ends.

[telecasterisation]

I firmly and unequivocally believe that Boeing jet aircraft were used on 9/11, at least on both WTC towers. I also believe that we have a mix of both real and manipulated video footage, the latter designed to confuse and divide.

For those that believe and spread the NPT view to the uninitiated, can you just for a moment shift perspective and put yourself in the position of someone who has not been exposed to the concept of the whole conspiracy thing? You ask someone to accept Bush/whoever arranged it all, then tell them also that there were holograms/missiles and no planes.

Quoting from the above post;

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

I take it you have not read it.

Have you seen the "Italian Job" the original with Michael Caine.

When chaos is all around --- depositing a few plane parts is childs play, blowing plane shaped holes in building -- what's so hard about that.

You say the list goes on and on --- let's have it then? --- It would be nowhere near as long of the list of things that could go wrong with using real planes.

[DeFecToR]

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[DeFecToR]

[Thermate]

.

[blackcat]

[telecasterisation]

[Myra99]

Post proofs that brotherhood is not so wild a dream as those who profit by postponing it pretend.
~~Norman Corwin


S O M E O F T H E A B O V E N E W S

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FROM: The Great Dollar Crash Of 2007

By Mike Whitney

The massive equity bubbles which arose from artificially low interest rates and the deliberate destruction of the dollar by reckless increases in the money supply have shifted trillions of dollars from working class Americans to the predatory aristocrats at the top of the economic food chain. The gulf between rich and poor has grown so wide that it now poses a direct threat to our increasingly fragile democracy.

"Whatever future developments may prove to be, my best guess is that the US will continue to maintain a façade of Constitutional government and drift along until financial bankruptcy overtakes it." Chalmers Johnson, "Empire V. Democracy: Why Nemesis is at our Door"
http://carolynbaker.org
http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/405/2/

======================================================

Rabbi Michael Lerner & 9/11 Skepticism

A 9/11 Gov’t Conspiracy? ‘I Wouldn’t Be Surprised,’ Says Tikkun Editor

Daniel Treiman | Tue. Feb 06, 2007

Rabbi Michael Lerner, the longtime activist and editor of Tikkun magazine, has published an essay saying he is open to the possibility that the American government may have been behind the September 11 terrorist attacks. http://www.911blogger.com/node/6006

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9/11 SKEPTIC INCARCERATED FOR "evaluation."

FROM: Veterans for 9/11 Truth
Sunday, February 04, 2007

Alfons interviews Michael Cook: Michael Cook accused George Bush of being complicit in the 9/11 attacks, he is now being incarcerated for psychology evaluation by the federal government. Michael Cook.mp3 --- Read More -

This is a brief history of my legal problems. There are potentially lucrative lawsuits in the information presented here, and much more in information not presented here, for attorneys willing to take them on. I have no criminal record and a very respectable background.
In April of 2005, I shared information on the attacks of 9/11/01 with my teaching assistant. I was working as a special educator....

....For folks who are interested, please feel free to write letters to me at Club Fed. Reading and writing letters helps pass the time, but the more letters I get the more the feds will know that folks are watching this case, thereby making it more difficult to railroad me further.

Peace through Truth and Justice,

Mike

....Mailing address at the Federal Medical Center- (FMC- Free Mike Cook!)

Michael Cook
11288-032
FMC
P.O. Box 14500
Lexington, Ky. 40512-4500

http://freedomisforeverybody.blogspot.com/2007/02/fwd-re-back-to-jail. html

======================================================

Left Gatekeepers Against 9/11 Truth
MINDS HALF OPEN, OR HALF CLOSED?

The massive gates guarding the public secret of Neocon complicity in the atrocities of 9/11 creaked open a few inches this month when THE NATION magazine was forced to actually publish a few of the torrent of letters berating them for their complicity in helping to cover up the truth about those atrocities. (See below: "Is The Nation Going Sane?")

Now ALTERNET has seen fit to let discretion be the better part of their invalorous participation in the superbly disciplined conspiracy of deadly silence. Article and discussion:
AlterNet Revisits 9-11 via Article by Sander Hicks
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5932

WHAT NEXT? Are we witnessing the beginnings of a race to the top by the remaining progressive hold-outs against 9/11 truth? Will PROGRESSIVE MAGAZINE go progressive and start worrying less about watching their backs and their grants and their bank accounts, and more about printing the truth? Will Air America's Ed Schultz and The Young Turks grow up and stop covering up? Will that archeypical bully-boy Alexander Cockburn stop beating up on 9/11 truth in his CounterPunch?

Will Al Franken take finally to heart what he said (twice, on his February 2 show) is his most treasured advice from Molly Ivins: "DON'T EVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU JUST TELLING THE TRUTH IS NOT ENOUGH."

From Molly's lips to God's ears.

======================================================

Please Help Out Vermonters For A Real 9/11 Investigation

We Need YOUR Help!

A movement is quickly growing in the small – yet influential – northeastern city of Burlington, Vermont. We have collected enough signatures to place an advisory question on the ballot asking our congressional delegation "to demand a new, thorough, and truly independent forensic investigation that fully addresses the many questions surrounding the tragic events of September 11, 2001."

We need to educate our fellow voters about the many unanswered questions surrounding September 11th.We will be talking to as many people as we can, registering new voters and pushing on this issue for discussion. But we need YOUR HELP!...
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5875

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IS PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE KUCINICH
GOING FOR THE TRUTH ABOUT 9/11?

[From 911blogger http://www.911blogger.com/node/5850#comment ]

You may want to go to this site and view the video clip there, to see what got this anti-9/11Truth guy so upset.

Dennis Kucinich Calls For Some 9/11 Truth

~~~~~
WOW
Man, Kucinich is ON! The only question and I'm not sure if it's necessary is....Did that comment continue on or did it end there with "9/11" and he then go on to the next part of his plan...

Either way, Kucinich has proven himself to be a real lover of freedom. How about the dream team for this 08'

Kucinich/Ron Paul

To people who want to save this country!

~~~~~

Submitted by Orangutan. on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 1:01am.
I ran into Mr. Kucinich and his wife in Memphis
and told him that if he came out for new 9/11 investigations that the Truth movement would get behind him on his call for new investigations.

If this is in fact what he is doing, then we need to start backing his call for new investigations. My hope is that he will hold a press conference and call for new investigations, this may have been a trial balloon so I think we should email him and give this balloon all the lift we can.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

~~~~~

Submitted by LeftWright on Tue, 01/30/2007 - 2:01am.
Kucinich for 9/11 Truth!
Fast Fwd to about 3:59 at the front half of the video. It is very quick but he does say "we have a plan and our plan is to tell the truth about nine eleven". I'm not sure what else he could mean with a comment like that.

"Tell the truth about nine eleven" implies that we have been told lies about nine eleven. He doesn't merely call for a "new investigatgion," rather he calls for an end to the lies. He implies that we already know the truth, we just need to tell the truth. It really doesn't get any clearer than that.

This is pretty big coming from a sitting member of congress and a democratic presidential contender. As far as I'm concerned, Kucinich has my support!

http://kucinich.us/

http://www.911blogger.com/node/5850#comment

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IS THE NATION GOING SANE?

The Nation: Letters from readers on 9/11

I wonder if Bush's more and more evident insistence on all war all the time is making some people reevaluate their position on 911.
--Ronald
http://desip.igc.org

The Nation
This article can be found on the web at
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070205/letter

Letters
by OUR READERS

[from the February 5, 2007 issue]

9/11: THE JURY'S STILL OUT

"9/11: The Roots of Paranoia" by Christopher Hayes (Dec. 25) drew more mail than almost any Nation article in memory, except perhaps on the JFK assassination. Letters ran the gamut from the enraged (canceled subscriptions, charges of Nation stonewalling, anger at the use of the term "paranoia") to the complimentary ("My thanks to Mr. Hayes for trying to chart a middle road between credulity and paranoia"). But almost all agree that we don't know the whole story of what happened on September 11, 2001.

http://bleiersblog.blogspot.com/2007/01/nation-letters-from-readers-on -911.html

Chris Rose:
you hear that?
it's the sound of a huge, massive, disinfo ship changing direction. this is a good sign--we now know never to trust the Nation or any other pseudo alternative news source, but they still want to try to preserve some credibility. this is a great victory, let's keep the heat on these buggers!

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

http://www.911blogger.com/node/5761#comment

=======================================================

9/11 Completed Coup of 2000?

One point I made in the book is that 9/11 is not necessarily the most significant event of the twenty-first century because I believe that the 2000 presidential election was. I believe that it was unambiguously a coup d’etat, and that that coup was completed with the orchestration by the U.S. government of the 9/11 attacks. Thus, the two events are inextricably connected.

You know, on the night of the 2000 elections I was teaching at the university in Juarez, Mexico, and I was watching the election returns on TV in the faculty lounge, quite appalled at what I was witnessing. Then one of my colleagues, a friend and a Mexican national, playfully but seriously said to me, “It looks like you Gringos are living what we Mexicans have been living for decades -- dirty elections that have nothing to do with how the people actually voted.”

http://www.worldnewstrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&i d=840

==================================================

Google Blogs Alert for: 9/11 inside job

9/11 was an inside job says Shayler
EX-MI5 officer David Shayler, who will be in Liverpool to launch the Truth Movement, tells Paddy Shennan what he thinks about the New York terror attacks.
icLiverpool - News - Echo News - http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/liverpoolecho/news/echonews/tm_meth od=full%26objectid=18513424%26siteid=50061-name_page.html

Senators Put Impeachment Back on The Table ~~
By tortugo23(tortugo23)
However, the evidence regarding 9/11 indicates that it was largely an inside job by traitorous elements of the US and global elite facilitated by bin Laden's band of delusional punks who had just the right amount of criminality to be ... Mexico New - http://riogrande-santafe.blogspot.com/index.html

==================================================

Minnesota Daily Launches Series of 9/11 Truth Columns

Adri Mehra will be doing a series of five 9/11 truth related columns for the Minnesota Daily, America's largest-circulation college newspaper. (Contact your local college paper and urge them to pick it up and publish it!) The first one was published today:

The Jenga hypothesis, or how I learned to start worrying - The Minnesota Daily

At 24 this guy is doing what the Woodwards and Hershes and Krugmans and all the other cowards masquerading as journalists apparently cannot bring themselves to do--confront the truth about the most important historical event of the century. If journalism has a future, this is it. (911blogger.com}

The Jenga hypothesis, or how I learned to start worrying
By Adri Mehra
This is the story of
one man's baptism
in the September 11
truth movement:
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/01/18/70347

==

DEAD ON ARRIVAL
The NIST 911 Report On The World Trade Center Collapse
By Mark H. Gaffney
http://rense.com/general74/nist.htm

==

Barrett: Academic freedom is good policy

By KEVIN BARRETT
(Barrett is a part-time lecturer at UW- Madison.)
Wisconsin State Journal

In the former Soviet Union, the monopoly media acted as cheerleader for a brutal, repressive government. Dissident academics were silenced, fired, or institutionalized.

For two or three years after 9/11, our media served as a megaphone for Bush administration lies, and academics were intimidated into silence....

....The excuse that my position is marginal no longer holds, given that only 16 percent of the American people believe the government is telling the truth about 9/11 (New York Times poll) and 36 percent of Americans, and half of New Yorkers, believe top US officials conspired to commit mass murder and high treason on 9/11 (Scripps-Howard and Zogby polls).

It is long past time for a rational, evidence-based debate on the facts and meaning of 9/11. Any takers?

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/column/other/index.php?ntid=108886&ntp id=5

===

Fewer people are believing the official reports on September 11 attacks:
http://www.sheboygan-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006611240473

==

ARE YOU A 16 PERCENTER?

There is help for you!

If you are among the 16% who still believe the Neonazicons' conspiracy theory about 9/11, YOU CAN BE HELPED! Simply click on the links below to read the scientific debunking of the Bush pseudoscience fairytale about the WTC 9/11 atrocity.

http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/kevin_ryan/newstandard.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html

http://www.wtc7.net/events/kc_science/index.html

==========================
B E W E T H E M E D I A
==========================

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[scar]

TTWSU3,
Why did you pm me this old article?
Anyone else receive this junk in their inbox?
When ya cant prove this to anyone and have to resort to copy + paste in pm's its time to reassess things imo. Its not healthy.

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

I Pmd the top 30 posters to see their response-----you would be surprised what many of them have told me in private------It will remain confidential

[flamesong]

Yeah, I got spammed too!

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[Patrick Brown]

[flamesong]

I think you will find the bear is Yogi's sidekick, Boo Boo.

[Patrick Brown]

I think we can all agree that he's full of something!

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[scar]

[telecasterisation]

[Mark Gobell]

[Patrick Brown]

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[Mark Gobell]

[telecasterisation]

[Mark Gobell]

So given your contradictory positions on the veracity of photographic and videographic evidence, how exactly did you come to understand that aircraft were involved in 9/11 ?

[Mark Gobell]

Let me understand your position clearly.

All post event video & photographic evidence is suspect, notwithstanding the fact that you use it to support positions that you take.

The television images on the day were not suspect and can therefore be trusted.

That is how you arrived at the view that aircraft were involved.

So, all one would have to do is to prove that real time TV images could be faked and your entire understanding of 9/11 aircraft would crumble.

Is that a reasonable conclusion ?

[Samantha J Fox]

[Samantha J Fox]

[Mark Gobell]

I did not make any assertion about any theory being more valid than any other.

I am simply trying to illustrate how both sides of this incredibly noxious debate, if indeed one could call it a debate, are using the same evidence to support their respective positions.

As Telecasterisation has honestly admitted, most of us, bar some very special people I guess, understood that aircraft were involved from what we saw on TV on the day.

That statement is pretty difficult to dispute you must agree surely.

The problem, as it has evolved therefore, is that one side is basically saying my videos are proof of my argument and the other side is saying your videos and photographs are faked and therefore your argument doesn't stand.

I find that a contradictory position to argue for, given that the very same people, like all of us, had their primary opinions formed by videographic evidence broadcast on TV and even use the very suspect evidence they pour scorn on to support their own view.

You could therefore simplify the argument into those that believe TV images are real and those that do not. That way everyone could find some common ground and agree that all post event photos and videographic evidence is suspect.

If that is a logical extension of the main argument then I would argue that neither side has a very strong position as it reduces down to a question of "belief" as Telecasterisation admits.

Hence my reason for joining this thread.

I illustrated that by using Telecasterisation's posts just to show that some use the same evidence that they dispute to support their own arguments.