Its All Over: The Guardian Debunks Loose Change

[dontbelievethehype1970]

Put down your pens. Breath a sigh of relief. It was never a conspiracy. It really was a bunch of guys attacking the most highly defended country in the world.

George Monbiot debunks Loose Change and the 911 Conspiracy movement in todays Guardian (Comment and Debate section).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2006831,00.html

Email address for Guardian letters page is: letters@guardian.co.uk

A prize goes to the person who can get the most ridiculous conspiracy theory published.

[Skeptic]

see this thread:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=6877

as many of us as possible should add to the 'comments' section

[Dr Hemp]

Dear George,

Having just read your article on Loose Change 2, I can only come to the conclusion that you did not watch the film Loose Change 2 properly or you are working for the American Government, other than that, you're an idiot.

For your information, Loose Change 2 is not the only 9/11 fact film (the conspiracy is the official version of events). If the overwhelming evidence in this film does not persuade you then watch this film http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 9/11 Mysteries, which does interview construction and demolition experts rather than the theology professors you have so much disdain for. You accuse the film Loose Change of drowning the truth in an ocean of nonsense, yet offer absolutely no evidence yourself to back up your claim. Are you implying the flight school owner who refused to let the hijackers rent a small propeller plane a few weeks before he supposedly did an amazing manouvre in a jet plane to hit the Pentagon is lying? Or perhaps he's an actor?

Yes of course the film Loose Change 2 looks at the collapse of Building 7, because this building wasn't hit by a plane and from the footage you can actually see it collapse in on itself. Now of course you are welcome to believe that somehow some fires started from debris that hit the towers to burn in all the exact pressure points of Building 7 to bring it down in a few seconds, making it the 3rd steel frame building in history to fall down (the first 2 being the towers themselves) then that's your prerogative, however, when you do so in such a patronising and condescending way towards those who have looked at the evidence and come to the conclusion that this was a controlled demolition with pre-planted explosives in the building, then I'm afraid it makes you sound rather foolish, not 9/11 truth seekers.

Finally, why don't you ask somebody who was actually there. Yesterday I had the honour of hearing William Rodriquez speak in Bristol, he was the last man out of the twin towers who saved hundreds of lives on that day and he left me in no doubt that 9/11 was an inside job. If you have the opportunity to hear William speak, I urge you to do so, or you can watch him on http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294. Oddly enough, William's evidence to the 9/11 Commission was held in secret and ignored, along with dozens of other eye witnesses. This was because William had uncomfortable things to say, like he actually heard the explosives going off in the building or the fact the elevator operator is still alive and kicking, despite the 9/11 Commission's official explanation that the fires in the basement were caused by a rush of fire being swept through the elevator shaft into the basement. You don't even have to be an expert to know that people in elevator shafts with fireballs going through them get burned alive and don't show up later with a couple of broken ankles. I don't know if you are in the UK, your article was forwarded to me, I've never actually heard of you, but if you are in the UK then details of William's tour can be found at www.last-man-out.com; I urge you to go and hear him and then come back to me and say you still believe the official version of events.

The 9/11 Truth Movement is here to stay, it is getting stronger by the day, because unlike you, there are millions of people out there who are prepared to look at the evidence, and believe me my friend, the evidence that 9/11 was an inside job is indisputable. The fact you say in your article that Loose Change 2 reached the shores a few months ago, when I personally watched Loose Change 2 in the UK over a year ago to me alone shows me you did not research your article properly, and then to have a go at conspiracy theorists, yet to finish on a completely absurd conspiracy theory yourself is just ridiculous. I'm happy to inform you that silly stories like yours implying that we are all some kind of gullible conspiraloons whose judgement is clouded and misguided by a predisposed hatred of the Bush regime, will not make us go away. We are doing this because we want the truth out and the real criminal perpetrators of 9/11 bought to justice.

Kind regards,

Chris Bovey.
Vice Chair, Totnes Truth Movement.
www.911truthtotnes.com

[Light Infantree]

Excellent letter Chris. I would urge more of us to make thier felling felt by George M. He is one of those guys who would do well to make the 911 connection as he has written a number of good articles in the past. Shame that he is remaining ignorant on this matter.

[Jack]

"Counterpunch, the radical leftwing magazine, commissioned its own expert - an aerospace and mechanical engineer - to test the official findings. He shows that the institute must have been right. He also demonstrates how Building 7 collapsed. Burning debris falling from the twin towers ruptured the oil pipes feeding its emergency generators. The reduction in pressure triggered the automatic pumping system, which poured thousands of gallons of diesel on to the fire. The support trusses weakened and buckled, and the building imploded. Popular Mechanics magazine polled 300 experts and came to the same conclusions."

hahahahahaha

[rodin]

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/April2004/Monbiot0420.htm

[rodin]

[rodin]

Israeli aggression is caused by Ultrachristians - in the world according to George (where Muslims caused NORAD to stand down)

[DDD911]

Made my views heard via a message & email

George Monbiot really needs to look twice at all this, hopefully all the responces will push him to accept the challenge and look further than the end of his nose!

[paul wright]

Monbiot is a Rockefeller environmentalist and leftie kind of guy promoting the worst kind of restrictions on the citizenry
His latest book was called Manifesto for a New World Order or something of the type
His view of Loose Change is hardly a surprise
Another one of these bought off leftist pricks to be disregarded
How wrong they were

[uselesseater]

It was a poor article. I actually thought it was so poor that it perhaps fell on its sword; a kind of vailed call for truth but it appears he's up there with Eric Pianka, Lovelock etc...

I think it works in our favour though, more exposure.

[Skeptic]

anyone notice this letter in today's Guardian?

[Banish]

Picked up at http://911researchers.com

http://www.unclenicks.net/bilderberg/www.bilderberg.org/bap.htm

[Keith Mothersson]

George's article is hugely disappointing. He ought to know about the successful critique by Jim Hoffman in www.911research.wtc7.net (essays section) of the Popular Mechanics articles (ditto the supposed debunking in Scientific American). He ought to know better, if for no other reason than that I gave him a copy of my 911Gate pamphlet (which mentions gthe rebuttals) as he left the Stirling g8 site and he promised to read it on the train home.

That said he has done lots of VERY fine work in the Guardian, and in books, including the Captive State, and lately Heat. The man is well respected and even loved in quite wide green and red-green circles.

However disappointed we feel, there is absolutely no point in indulging in a competition to see who can abuse him most trenchantly. It will only swing thousands of potential 911 truth people away from us, and confirm the view being put about that we are some sinister cult who persecutes people who don't toe our line.

The best revenge is living well - or in this case writing or speaking well and accurately, playing the ball not the man, without lots of egoic colouring (or 'wegoic' group affrontedness).

Patiently, again and again, and again.

And getting whatever emotional support to help us through those times when we feel like throttling people who disappoint us. Please remember that if we want to help others work through their fear and denial, then we need to keep working on our own aggressively masked denial about denial, which discharges instead as the sort of anger which not only inhibits learning, open-ness, uncertainty - the sort of skills people need to shift out of the official Conspiracy Theory - but also confirms both us and others in mutually antagonistic identities - so we actually go backwards, Monbiot being more popular than we are!

Truth is a hard discipline, a spiritual practice for the sake of the world, not a chance to abuse people who for whatever reasons make errors, disseminate falsehoods. And that is another reason to practice right speech: We none of us know George well enough to know why he has taken the position he has. Jumping to conclusions is the opposite of truthful description of what has happened and our feelings of disappointment, sadness. And again it will surely tend to consolidate George and his supporters in more definite and permanent opposition to us 'conspiracy people' .

Good will to all. Alert goodwill.

[Dr Hemp]

Some good letters in the Guardian today

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,2007936,00.html

[Mark Gobell]

A reponse from Ian Henshall:

GEORGE MONBIOT CATCHES A VIRUS

Whichever side of the nine eleven debate we stand we can probably
agree that the media did get it right about one thing: nine eleven
changed everything. It has put George Monbiot in the same camp as the
Hearst Corporation and the CIA in denouncing the 911 truth movement.
It has put Hugo Chavez and Zbig Brzezinski on the other side of the
divide. Chavez recently stated that the Twin Towers may have been
brought down by explosives and Brzezinski, who tricked the USSR into
disaster in Afghanistan when he was in power, warned Congress that
America may use a terrorist attack on the us mainland as part of the
preparation for an attack on Iran. Zbig did not tell Congress quite
explicitly that the attack could be planned by the administration but
how else would it fit into the military's schedules?

This is of course one of the reasons why people in the nine eleven
truth movement got suspicious in the first place: the timing of nine
eleven was just too damn suspicious. It was worth looking into, and
we found a can of worms. Monbiot did not want to look into the can,
even though nine eleven had wrecked the anti-globalisation movement
and boosted Bush, his big enemy. Fair enough, thought the activists,
he doesn't want to poison the well of trust in a governing system
which the social Democratic left still hope they can take over after
a hundred years of trying. Perhaps he just wants to leave it to
somebody else to do the dirty work.

But now Monbiot has tragically lost it. In a rant against the "virus"
of "conspiracism" he is now trying to bully the movement that trusted
him into toeing a new party line. Monbiot after years of good work
has joined the sneering elite. But surely he has some reason? Not
really, on a close examination Monbiot's article is a trail of bad
logic irrelevant detail and deceit by omission. Just what you would
expect if you take Popular Mechanics book on the "911 Myths", as your
gospel, published by the Hearst Corporation, introduced by Senator
"torture lite" John McCain, and researched by the cousin of Bush
Homeland Security boss Michael Chertoff.

Monbiot's big stick is the NIST report, the official report on how
the Twin Towers collapsed. Monbiot who has made a career out of Bush
hating, who has drawn attention to Bush's abuse of government
scientists when it comes to global warming, takes as gospel their
report into the collapse of the World Trade Centre. The metal was
softened by the fires, ergo they collapsed. That the top section of
each building was able to overcome the entire structural and inertial
resistance of the vast building below it, change much of it into
pulverised concrete, and still reach the ground in near freefall time
is no problem for someone supposed to be scientifically literate. Is
Monbiot really unaware NIST only ever looked at how the collapse may
have begun. Can pundits really be this lazy? That's not the only
problem: nowhere did NIST produce evidence that the temperatures
exceeded 300 degrees let alone the 600 degrees needed over a
prolonged period for the metal to lose even half of its strength. The
architect who designed the Towers to resist collision with a large
passenger jet must be turning in his grave.

At the risk of being boring let me mention one more detail. Monbiot
sneers that the film Loose Change gives too much time to the
building's janitor. He fails to mention that William Rodriguez the
chief janitor, an American national hero, was cut off by the media
when he emerged as a cogent eyewitness to support the allegation,
reported by virtually everyone at the time, that the Towers had been
brought down by preset explosives. When it became clear that Osama
bin laden could not have done this the official line changed, the
firemen were bullied into line by Mayor Giuliani (Monbiot seems
unaware of the oral histories, released after a ferocious court
battle, which make that clear) but Rodriguez stood firm. He was in
the basement at the time. The seismic evidence supports Rodriguez,
and unfortunately for the CIA the Hearst Corporation and George
Monbiot it cannot be manipulated by political diktat.

There are kernels of truth in Monbiot's world of viruses. 911 people
can be boring. They have a different strategy to wake up the public
to the ugly reality of the Empire. Loose Change is an emotional
populist production of immense power. It does get some things wrong,
the makers are not so stupid as to believe they have access to
absolute truth when there has been a pervasive smokescreen placed
over the events. To this day for instance the US government has never
produced a photo to prove that flight seventy seven actually did hit
the Pentagon. Its passengers included (yes this may just be a
coincidence) CNN's neocon darling Barbara Olson, and three executives
from the Raytheon Corporation one of whose specialities is the remote
control of aircraft. To this day there is no photograph of any of the
alleged hijackers as they boarded the aircraft. The alleged mobile
phone calls could not have taken place and have been quietly changed
into airphone calls, but they still cannot explain how eight pilots
were overpowered and no hijack warning was given on any transponder.

How could a grand conspiracy have succeeded? It relied on people like
Monbiot to believe it. It made the right judgement. Rodriguez is on
tour in the UK but no national newspaper will speak to him.
Nonetheless it's coming apart. It would come apart faster if pundits
did research, news editors would admit they have been duped, and
corporate proprietors dared to defy pressures from government and
advertisers. Good people have done nothing and evil has prospered.
How ironic that Monbiot does not understand that.

What could be Monbiot's motive for denouncing so much of the movement
as a "virus" at a time when turkeys are being slaughtered? We can
only hope that this terminology was inadvertent and not a nasty
little bit of psychological warfare. We can only hope that the CIA
has quietly whispered to him that the nine eleven truth movement is
full of Nazis, or that he feels guilty for failing to investigate the
matter properly, or there is some internal power struggle going on at
the Guardian. Perhaps this is a turf war for the allegiance of
supporters of the sort that has always wrecked the left.

But there is a nightmare scenario. Perhaps Monbiot like his colleague
on the Observer Nick Cohen, is on the ugly neocon road from
trotskyism to the new version of fascism which makes the holocaust
into a religion and deduces that anything is justified, including
near genocide in Iraq, in the cause of "defending Israel".
Anti-semitic? Not at all, Israel is shorthand for America's oil and
the settlers' stolen land on the West Bank. Among the first victims
of the new fascists are, like the old fascists, ordinary jewish
people outside the empire's politically correct elite of sneering
overpaid pundits, multi ethnic racketeers and old style Pentagon nazis.

With a false flag terrorist attack on the US on the cards and another
wave of mass murder planned for Iran, the timing of Monbiot's
diatribe against "conspiracists" ie people who are trying to do
something to stop the empire, could hardly be more disturbing. Let's
hope he's just a sloppy researcher who has made a fool of himself.

Ian Henshall

[londonsound]

londonsound

February 8, 2007 12:17 AM

Disappointing, but not that surprising, to see Monbiot attacking the Loose Change boys, whose film only exists because the transatlantic mainstream media singularly failed to seriously critically examine 9/11. This is why newspaper circulations are plummeting. It is watershed film, marking a real decline in the influence of mainstream media and the rise of the garage documentary.

Loose Change has real flaws and a bit too much speculation for my taste, but it is earnest, free of cynicism and has opened many eyes to the geopolitical machinations and neo-imperialism of our day. Further, it has spawned superior successors such as "911 mysteries", "Improbable Collapse" and especially "9/11 Press for Truth" which I defy George or anyone else to watch and dismiss as paranoid hokum. There are also good books like Mike Ruppert's "Crossing the Rubicon" and Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed's : "War on Truth", "War on Freedom" and "London Bombings". "9/11 revealed" by Henshall and Morgan, Webster Tarpley's 9/11 synthetic terror etc. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear.

Conspiracies do not necessarily require thousands of proactive, conscious, participants. it just requires a few well placed people to be in on it, and for others lower down the chain to do as they are told, no questions asked, "you're told only as much as you need to know". Circumstances which thrive in military set-ups where you just follow orders.

The Gulf of Tonkin incident (leading to the usnpeakable carnage in Southeast Asia), and the reichstag fire (which brought Hitler and co to power) and the "WMD" inspired utter devastation of iraq are examples of conspiracies that devasted hundreds thousands and millions of lives but only took a few well placed people to kick things off.

And if anyone has the frequently proferred but erroneous (essentially erm, white supremacist) idea that Saddam, Idi Amin, Pol Pot Mugabe etc are the only ones who can contemplate killing "their own people" then you need to pay closer attention to things like operation northwoods, PNAC and "force depletion reports". Always ask yourself when elites speak privately "who do they mean when they say 'us'".

As for the supposed incompetence of the Bush Administration. this is a complete red herring. Presidents are essentially temporary spokesmen and bush is doubtlessly an inept one, but post war American Foreign Policy is essentially continuous, regardless of the Oval offices' occupants. They are competent to develop and maintain a potentially civilisation ending nuclear arsenal and mount a campaign from 1991 to the present to destroy "a country the size of france" on the other side of the world, so they can blow up a couple of office buildings in lower manhattan, i feel sure.

and It's properly hilarious to see Monbiot (whom i admire greatly) citing NIST, (suddenly not so concerned about the bush administration's politically- motivated junk science, eh?) and expecting us to take the lying warmongering war profiteering Bush/Cheney admins word for what really happened that sunny tuesday. The guilty party being fingered within a few minutes of the first crash. No trial. Limited investigation.

Whatever next?
"9/11 was investigated by an 'independent' commission, appointed by the bush administration and it found that the bush administration did nothing wrong?".

"Lord Hutton closely examined the run up to the Iraq war and found that the Blair government did not exaggerate the threat to britain?"

"Invading iraq had nothing to with oil?" on what basis should we trust the US/UK establishment about the time of day let alone anything else.

Earnest lefties have just missed the boat on this one, perhaps the greatest mass awakening to the realities of modern western imperialism ever, and its just a little disappointing. (for me)

Monbiot is joining Chomsky, Michael Albert, Galloway, Medialens and other erstwhile notable critics of empire in (wittingly or unwittingly) trying to tell us "what not to think" and "what not to watch". That 9/11 is just as bush says it was, shows over, nothing to see here folks.

thankfully, we aren't listening.

[numeral]

These letters were very prominent in the hardcopy of the Grauniad today.

[Keith Mothersson]

Quite good coverage in Guardian today, a collective effort for behind every used letter are ten not used on that subject.

FWIW I sent the following today, albeit with small hope it will be used:

They say that hypnotists can get people to both see and not see something at the same time.

Over the years George Monbiot's demolitions of official whitewashes and junk corporate science have been a joy to read.

So it was a special shock to see him falling for the bizarre NIST report and the 'refutations' of Popular Mechanics (A 9/11 conspiriacy virus is sweeping the world, Feb 6) - the more so as at the g8 in 2006 I had given him the very URL he needed to see through both absurdities: http://www.911research.wtc7.net/essays/index.html

Come on George, any ten year old knows that stuff takes longer to fall through stuff than through air!

Once the inescapable physics is placed at the centre of this murder investigation, then various sociological issues can be calmly re-examined, including a priori assumptions about the size, workings, composition and motives of the demolition conspiracy.

Given the trail of mysterious murders after JFK copped a magic bullet in 1964, has it occurred to George that confessing inside knowledge of this latest frame-up might be a little more risky than telling Jerry Springer about 'carnal relations with tractors'?

And besides, if people came forward, which media would take them seriously?

No George, we don't think you have sold out, just that, having experienced ridicule yourself on other issues, you appear on this issue to be too subconsciously over-identified with the scornful voices of the powerful to be able to hear with respect the 'loser' voices of ordinary people like janitors, fire-fighters and office workers who have the temerity to report that there is an elephant in the middle of 'the West's' collective living room.

Vitriolic rhetoric and cheap shots won't make it go away. Nor will we be able to strike a new course on any of the other 'real issues' George mentions until we defeat the military-industrial oil cult by choosing to see this spectacular and iconic own goal for what it truly is - false-flag terrorism, not blowback.

Keith Mothersson
911 Truth Scotland
2b Darnhall Cres,
Perth PH2 0HH

0845 456 4779
07815 653389

Another aspect is that it is possible people sometimes calculate that if we swear fealty to some proposition advanced by power then we can have more influence as we lobby powerful people on other issues.

I think it just makes powerful people treat us with even more contempt, and ignore what we say about other issues, and this strategy (Paris is worth a mass) demobilises the grass roots communities of nonviolent revolution that we need to require the powerful to give way or be entirely bypassed.

[zennon]

[Abandoned Ego]