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Killtown
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 Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: "All the witnesses are lying and are in on it" |
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Why do no-plane haters keep saying this is what no-planers think about the WTC witnesses?
Dylan Avery called in to the Mike Swenson show during our no-plane debate and started accusing me of thinking this and made a real ass of himself.
Now Agent Albanese is hear spouting off this same diatribe.
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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So what do you think then killtown?
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | | So what do you think then killtown? |
I'll answer your question after you answer mine.
Btw, when are you stepping down as moderator?
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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You asked me a question? Or crudely attempted to lump me into your self created catagory?
As for giving up the modding: well wont be till end of June at the earliest, becuase that's when the new mod apointments are being made: and plenty of people have pm'd me asking me to stay on, along the lines of "Your doing a cracking job John".
so back to:
what do you think then killtown?
Surely not too difficult a question
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | | You asked me a question? |
You did see my question didn't you?
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gruts
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown - do you agree with Fred that John Albanese is lying when he says he saw a plane? |
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | | John White wrote: | | You asked me a question? |
You did see my question didn't you? |
No, I saw your:
| Quote: | | crude attempt to lump me into your self created catagory |
Its very simple Killtown: you either have the truth or you do not
"Hate" may come into it on your side of the equation: I hope for your sake it does not: but it certainly has no part of mine
For the third time:
what do you think then killtown? (about witnesses)
given that this thread is a clear exercise in self-justification, your reluctance to state your positive opinion is somewhat strange: your not afraid to state your view, are you?
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andyb
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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What about all the people we could hear in the very same videos Fred posted with people saying they saw a plane. You are a disgrace to humanity. Goodbye
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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It's very simple guys, the topic of this thread is:
"Why do no-plane haters keep saying this is what no-planers think about the WTC witnesses?"
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | It's very simple guys, the topic of this thread is:
"Why do no-plane haters keep saying this is what no-planers think about the WTC witnesses?" |
Well the answer is obvious (as you have three times demonstrated):
becuase "No Planers" catagorically refuse to clearly state what they do think and people use imagination to fill in the void
Glad to solve that one for you killtown, do pop back when you have something meaningful to say
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gruts
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | It's very simple guys, the topic of this thread is:
"Why do no-plane haters keep saying this is what no-planers think about the WTC witnesses?" |
Please tell us who the "no plane haters" are and what you actually do think so we can judge for ourselves whether they are right.
I wonder why you keep running away from that question.... |
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="John White"] | Killtown wrote: | 1) becuase "No Planers" catagorically refuse to clearly state what they do think and people use imagination to fill in the void
2) do pop back when you have something meaningful to say |
1) So if that is true, why don't the planehuggers just ask instead of spewing out there nonsense diatribe?
2) pop back in when you stop being so immature and condescending.
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Stefan
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I would offer a simple explanation:
People ask you if all the witnesses who saw planes are lying.
You have morphed this into:
People ask you if all the witnesses are lying.
As an embarrasingly transparent set-up for the latest TV fakery video (which has already been posted here) of people saying they didn't see the plane. You want someone to say "Because you are claiming all the witnessess are lying" so you can say "aha look at THIS!"
Do you think we're all stupid?
If you want to a point just make it, then we will proceed with ignoring you as usual.
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| gruts wrote: | | Killtown wrote: | It's very simple guys, the topic of this thread is:
"Why do no-plane haters keep saying this is what no-planers think about the WTC witnesses?" |
Please tell us who the "no plane haters" are and what you actually do think so we can judge for ourselves whether they are right.
I wonder why you keep running away from that question.... |
Not run away, I wanted my question answered first.
As to what I think, I think most of the witnesses are NOT lying or in on it.
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gruts
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | | As to what I think, I think most of the witnesses are NOT lying or in on it. |
OK - so now tell me if you think any of these witnesses are lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower.
FIREFIGHTER SCOTT HOLOWACH
At that time, I started walking towards Engine 3. Engine 3 drove south to the south pedestrian bridge to make a U turn to come back and as I'm walking towards the Engine to find out what Lieutenant Walsh wanted us to do, I heard the sound of a jet plane. I looked up and saw it pretty close and I was like holy *. What's going on with the with the flight patterns. All of a sudden, the wings turned and it dove right into the building and it was screwed up.
At that time Chief Ganci was behind me and he thought there was another explosion in the north tower and that's when I turned around and said Chief, listen, there is a second plane that hit the other tower. He was like no no no no, we have another explosion. I said no, Chief, I witnessed it. I watched the plane hit the other tower. He is like are you sure. I said Chief, I'm 100 hundred percent positive I watched the second plane hit the other tower.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110114.PDF
FIREFIGHTER STEPHEN ZASA
Upon that time I heard a plane roar. I had my window down and on my side we saw a plane flying very low come right across us and with a loud, you know, the engines revved up, and I had mentioned to him, I had no idea that it was heading towards that way, and I just said like where is this guy going, you know, he was extremely low, not realizing it was another plane heading towards the World Trade, and we saw it struck the building, we saw a big mushroom of flame, of fire coming up, and it was like disbelief, and he had gotten on the radio and notified the dispatcher another plane had struck the World Trade Center.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110417.PDF
FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH CASALIGGI
I left my rollup and my standpipe kit in the lobby. I went outside to the rig, changed the cylinder. While I was changing the cylinder, I was keeping an eye because the chauffeur was hooking up to the standpipe. I was keeping an eye, making sure he didn't get hit with anything.
It was at that time when I saw the second plane hit the building. I called a mayday. I told them the second plane hit the south tower of the building. I wasn't sure which floors it was, but I knew it hit the upper floors of the south tower.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110430.PDF
FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH GALASSO
After the first plane hit, we were here, actually. We could see the towers actually from here. So after the first plane hit, we saw it on the news. So we came up here to look out the window, and we saw it. We watched the second plane hit. Just as the second plane hit, that's when we received the alarm.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110322.PDF
PARAMEDIC KEVIN DARNOWSKI
Right before the tolls on the Brooklyn side heading towards Manhattan at the Battery Tunnel, we were sitting in traffic and we watched United Flight 175 hit tower two, which was the south tower of the World Trade Center.
At that time everybody was just in shock. The firefighters and I were just really trying to get through the traffic when the plane hit, and we were just standing there in like awe of what was happening.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110202.PDF
FIREFIGHTER JOSEPH SULLIVAN
Okay. We responded from quarters. The ticket came in at 8:54. We were going on the first alarm to the staging area by the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. En route to the staging area, we were going down Columbia Street, saw the second plane strike the building and we went from being a, quote, good job or a rough job, or we were going to earn our money today.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110286.PDF
EMT SEAN CUNNIFFE
We were lined up on West Street, west side, right by the pedestrian bridge, between six and one, over here somewhere. I don't remember the supervisor's name, but they had us line up, put our stretchers and equipment on it. We were just waiting for further instruction.
As we were waiting there, counting the people jumping, that's when we saw the scope of it. We counted 39 people. It was sad. That's when it stopped being exciting and reality kicked in and we were hanging out.
The second plane came in. It was the biggest noise I ever heard in my life.
Q. Did you see the plane?
A. Yeah. We saw it, we heard it, we felt the heat from it, the debris. We ducked under a truck...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110164.PDF
CHIEF OF THE DEPARTMENT DANIEL NIGRO (FDNY)
At some point after our arrival and after we had moved to the west side of West Street, I heard a loud roar of a jet, looked up and saw the second plane impact the south tower. At that point it was clear to me it was a terrorist attack. Earlier I didn't know what it was. I assumed it was an accident.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110154.PDF
BATTALION CHIEF BRIAN O'FLAHERTY (FDNY)
Just then out of the corner of my eye, I could see this plane. I just remember the dark. It was in the shadow. It looked low. I thought, "What the heck is the guy doing?" I watched it, watched him turn and crash right into the south tower. Right away I knew it was terrorism or terrorists. I didn't know what the first one was, but I knew what the second one was.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110431.PDF
EMS CAPTAIN MARK STONE
We got in the truck, listening to reports coming in on Citywide and we ended up taking the Battery Park Tunnel underneath to come up on the West Street side of the incident. We came up right out of the tunnel. I was looking up to see if I could do a little more initial size up. That is when I saw the second plane hit the building. I just watched it coming in.
I see that the plane hit and I'm really thinking for the safety of the members that we got operating already ...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHI C/9110076.PDF |
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | As to what I think, I think most of the witnesses are NOT lying or in on it.
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There we go, that wasnt so hard
So, tell us more about this persecution complex you describe where you are convinced you are hated... do you think it at all possible that the behaviour of No Plane Theory advocates may have in some way exacerbated the situation?
Like... just for example... Fred's accusing John Albanese of being a member of Al-quada? (though how Al-quada can possibly be responsible for hijacking planes that Fred reckons where not there is something of a mystery, and it does seem more likely that its Fred being aggresive, demeaning and rude)
Do you defend these accusations coming out of "9/11 researchers", or condemn them?
If you condemn them, what steps are being taken to prevent them? Will Fred be banned from 9/11 researchers if he repeats them?
If you do not condemn them, how do you justify them? You can present evidence to support them?
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EmptyBee
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: |
"All the witnesses are lying and are in on it"
Why do no-plane haters keep saying this is what no-planers think about the WTC witnesses?
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It depends on which strand of NPT you are coming from. A commonly held position from what I can gather from the numerous threads on this forum
is that the video "evidence" supporting NPT trumps eyewitness accounts of planes striking, especially because not everyone saw the planes impact (which of course can't be explained by the fact they were at the wrong angle or only looked up in time to see the fireball).
So that the picture in downtown Manhattan on the morning of 9/11 was something like this:
Eyewitness#1 "OMG I just an explosion in the WTC! They're bombing the WTC!"
"Tellytubby": That wasn't a bomb, that was a plane! They just showed it LIVE ON TEEVEE!! Who you gunna believe, me or your lying eyes?
"Mind-Controlled Shill": Well I was just two blocks down, and from there you could see the plane. It looked like a United Airlines jet. It hit the South Tower.
Only Eyewitness#1 is a "reliable" witness according to NPT, everyone else is a victim of mind control or is lying. That's just my take on it, but it does seem to me that unless you believe some kind of optical illusion deceived the eyewitnesses that claim to have seen a plane, I don't see how their testimony is reconcilable to NPT without calling them liars or dupes.
If you're the flavour of NPT that believes in flying holograms/missiles disguised as holograms then of course this doesn't apply to you. You just have to jump the not inconsiderable hurdle of explaining how such science fiction is in fact science fact.
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| gruts wrote: | | OK - so now tell me if you think any of these witnesses are lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower. |
Probably not.
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Stefan
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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What exactly is a "no-plane-hater"?
All I hate is people being abusive to everyone who disagrees with them, repeat posting the same videos with no argument to back them up and demanding any dissent to their view is censored and hurling wild accusations at everyone who dares to question them.
In other words I hate the FredFedThreadHeads.
I have no problem at all with Andrew Johnson, Andrew Watson, David Shayler or any other reasonable and non abusive NPT proponents.
I do have strong views about what should and should not be a part of an effective campaign (including many of my own opinions), but have no problem with diverse views among members of the campaign and in fact am interested to hear more about them.
I just wish this forum would be explicitly and utterly divorsed from ascoiation with the campaign, then it wouldn't really bother me what was went on here.
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Stefan wrote: | | What exactly is a "no-plane-hater"? |
People who hate the no-plane theory.
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | | Stefan wrote: | | What exactly is a "no-plane-hater"? |
People who hate the no-plane theory. |
And what methodology do you use to seperate People who do not agree with No Plane theory from people who "hate" No plane theory?
I trust you will be able to define such a mechansim, or are you claiming disagreeing with No Plane theory is "Hate Crime"?
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | | or are you claiming disagreeing with No Plane theory is "Hate Crime"? |
God you're stupid.
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | | John White wrote: | | or are you claiming disagreeing with No Plane theory is "Hate Crime"? |
God you're stupid. |
Great answer killtown. So you discern disagreement from "hate" how?
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gruts
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | | gruts wrote: | | OK - so now tell me if you think any of these witnesses are lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower. |
Probably not. |
so if they're not lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower - do you agree that that's what happened? and if not, why not? |
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| gruts wrote: | | Killtown wrote: | | gruts wrote: | | OK - so now tell me if you think any of these witnesses are lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower. |
Probably not. |
so if they're not lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower - do you agree that that's what happened? and if not, why not? |
No, think Pentagon incident.
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gruts
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | | gruts wrote: | | Killtown wrote: | | gruts wrote: | | OK - so now tell me if you think any of these witnesses are lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower. |
Probably not. |
so if they're not lying when they say they saw the second plane hit the south tower - do you agree that that's what happened? and if not, why not? |
No, think Pentagon incident. |
so what do you think they saw then? |
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Killtown
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| gruts wrote: | | so what do you think they saw then? |
Probably the same thing the Pentagon witnesses saw.
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EmptyBee
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Killtown wrote: | | gruts wrote: | | so what do you think they saw then? |
Probably the same thing the Pentagon witnesses saw. |
What are you suggesting? That there was a fly-by (as suggested by the PentaCon people) and some kind of cloaking technology was used? I can only guess, but it's rather hypothetical and leaves the question about the source of the massive fireball of jet fuel, and the rather specific nature of the damage done to the WTC. Do you think that these phenomena were illusions too?
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | | Killtown wrote: | As to what I think, I think most of the witnesses are NOT lying or in on it.
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There we go, that wasnt so hard
So, tell us more about this persecution complex you describe where you are convinced you are hated... do you think it at all possible that the behaviour of No Plane Theory advocates may have in some way exacerbated the situation?
Like... just for example... Fred's accusing John Albanese of being a member of Al-quada? (though how Al-quada can possibly be responsible for hijacking planes that Fred reckons where not there is something of a mystery, and it does seem more likely that its Fred being aggresive, demeaning and rude)
Do you defend these accusations coming out of "9/11 researchers", or condemn them?
If you condemn them, what steps are being taken to prevent them? Will Fred be banned from 9/11 researchers if he repeats them?
If you do not condemn them, how do you justify them? You can present evidence to support them? |
Killtown seems to have missed out addressing this
A simple "Fred's bang out of order there" will do: unless Killtown backs the statement
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marky 54
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Stefan wrote: | What exactly is a "no-plane-hater"?
All I hate is people being abusive to everyone who disagrees with them, repeat posting the same videos with no argument to back them up and demanding any dissent to their view is censored and hurling wild accusations at everyone who dares to question them.
In other words I hate the FredFedThreadHeads.
I have no problem at all with Andrew Johnson, Andrew Watson, David Shayler or any other reasonable and non abusive NPT proponents.
I do have strong views about what should and should not be a part of an effective campaign (including many of my own opinions), but have no problem with diverse views among members of the campaign and in fact am interested to hear more about them.
I just wish this forum would be explicitly and utterly divorsed from ascoiation with the campaign, then it wouldn't really bother me what was went on here. |
i agree with all the above and thats how i feel, it has nothing to do with the theory of NO PLANES. all it has something to do with is being attacked for not agreeing and being accused of things for not agreeing.
the avoidence of anything that goes against the theory is also annoying, how you expect people to believe NPT or TV fakery whilst avoiding everything that challenges it is beyond me, and attacking people for posing questions or providing counter evidence isnt going to work either.
it has nothing to do with NPT hating at all, but as we know 9/11 researchers are not intrested in the truth so they will make up their own reasons just like they do with everything else.
i am yet to have a debate with a NPT'er that didnt turn into me being abused or targeted in a hate campaign, just for trying to solve all the problems i could see in it being believed by asking the questions. |
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