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Tue19Jun - LEWES - Peter Tatchell & civil rights

 
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marndin
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:33 pm    Post subject: Tue19Jun - LEWES - Peter Tatchell & civil rights Reply with quote

P r e s s R e l e a s e

RIGHTS CAMPAIGNER PETER TATCHELL COMING TO LEWES

Peter Tatchell, renowned for his ceaseless and determined campaigning for civil rights, is coming to the Lewes All Saints Centre on 19th June 2007 to address the issue of biometric ID cards and the ‘Surveillance State’.

Many people are concerned at the ever-increasing government-sanctioned invasions of privacy in British society, and the Lewes-based Changing Times organisation, which has recently been holding packed events on a number of challenging topics, has invited Peter Tatchell to give a presentation entitled ‘Big Brother is Watching You’.

In his lecture, Tatchell will be exposing the underhand methods being used to sell the concept of expensive and much open-to-abuse biometric ID cards to the public, and questioning why Britain has more CCTV cameras and surveillance systems than any other nation in the world. In his powerful style, Tatchell will inform the audience as to what can be done about these and other related developments, inspiring people to stand up for their rights – while they still can.

Tatchell made a name for himself with a number of controversial protests for gay rights from the 1970s onwards and was even at one point branded ‘public enemy number one’ by the Sunday Times. However, changing attitudes and Tatchell’s tireless work in campaigning for human and civil rights in many arenas has won him wide respect, culminating in his being described recently by the same Sunday Times as ‘a national hero’, and by the Daily Mail as ‘heroic – an example to us all’.

Andy Thomas of Changing Times says ‘It will be a great honour to have Peter with us here in Lewes, a place where liberty has always been a central concern. The subject is an important one and Peter presents a very compelling case as to why we should care’.

The event takes place on 19th June 2007, All Saints Centre, Friars Walk, Lewes, at 7.45pm. Details can be found at www.changingtimes.org.uk. Tickets are £5, available only on the door.



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Last edited by marndin on Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:57 pm    Post subject: Peter Tatchell arrested in Moscow Reply with quote

I've just seen him on the news (probably Euronews) being bundled into a police van in Moscow today, Sunday after making a street protest there. I hope he's OK and will be able to address this event.

My partner, Ted, and I have known him for 35 years and have worked with him on and off over that period. We have developed an enormous respect for him, his tireless and fearless campaigning as well as his sense of fun. We may have to be looking at whether we can get him out of a Russian jail for this event. I'll see if I can get any news about the situation from mutual friends.

Noel
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Linda
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Whale was speaking to him on talksport about an hour ago on the telephone.
Peter was very shaken, and he said he finaly did get treatment for his eye injury, he also has a cracked/bruised rib. Poor thing what an awful thing to happen to someone. I felt quite sick watching this poor man getting beaten in this way.

At least Peter has a backbone unlike the Idiots that we have in the government Smile
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Peter Tatchell was on James Whale radio show Reply with quote

Peter was talking on the phone live from Moscow to James Whale on his radio show just after 10pm. He said he was OK but worried about his right eye that had been punched. He's had trouble with that eye in the past so was really concerened about it. He was also concerened about Richard Fairbrass of Right Said Fred who was also punched, twice.

Peter said that they protested in Moscow last year even though the Mayor over there illegally banned any protest & is facing a tribunal for his action. Peter said even though the mayor is facing tribunal & faced international criticism for it he also went ahead to ban the protest this year. That didn't stop them though last year or this year.

Hope Peter makes it back for this lecture then next month. Apart from what he'd been through earlier in the day he still sounded his positive, fiery self. Well done Peter Smile

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paul wright
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't agree with many of Peter's views, but rate him as a Grade A small resources, large impact campaigner. I'm sure he'll come out of this intact.
We need to summon up some small morsel of his courage, and that he's remained out of the new labour cage, unlike an abomination like Hain

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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Violence at Gay Moscow Demonstration Reply with quote

Violence at Gay Moscow Demonstration

London, 28 May 2007

The Gay and Lesbian Humanist Association vigorously condemn the
violence against gay demonstrators in Moscow. The right wing
nationalists and religious leaders took part in this intolerance.

Jim Herrick, Chairman of GALHA, said:

"We roundly condemn the brutal attacks on the gay protestors at Moscow
Pride and the lack of adequate police protection. We note that though
many of the anti-gay demonstrators were clearly fascist thugs, many
also carried icons or other insignia of the Russian Orthodox Church.
The religious described homosexuality as evil and Satanic. The
inevitable conclusion is that, as in so many other instances of
homophobia world-wide, religion played a major part."

Moscow Pride organiser, Nicolai Alexeyev, who is still in police
custody after police arrested gay activists while seemingly ignoring
their attackers, was the the guest of honour and keynote speaker at
GALHA's annual lunch event in November last year. In his speech,
Alekseyev described the hostility which participants in Moscow Pride
2006 had to face from a coalition of fascist thugs and Orthodox
Christian religionsts. He said they had been "bloodied but unbowed"
and would certainly be back with a vengeance in 2007. Given time, he
predicted, the situation for LGBT people in Russia would be as
favourable as it is now in Western European countries. His speech was
received with an ecstatic ovation and he was presented with an award
in recognition of "his courage in challenging homophobia in Russia and
beyond".

For more information:
Chair: Jim Herrick 01483 811707
Secretary: Cliff James 0796 7047422

ENDS
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moscow Gay Arrests & Violence
Tatchell Bashed by Moscow Nazis
Police Let Right-Wing Extremists Rampage
Moscow Gay Pride Leader Arrested, with German Green MP Volker Beck

Moscow – 27 May 2007 – 8 pm Moscow time

Arrests and violent attacks marred today's attempted Moscow Gay Pride
march. Fifteen to 20 marchers were arrested. The organizer of Moscow
Pride, Nikolai Alekseev, is being detained overnight at Moscow's
Tverskoi district police station, together with two prominent members
of Russia's Radical and Free Radical parties, Nikolai Khramov and
Sergei Konstantinov.

British gay human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell was one of several
Gay Pride marchers who were beaten today by gangs of neo-Nazis,
nationalist extremists and Russian Orthodox fundamentalists, with the
apparent collusion of sections of the Moscow police and the Russian
OMON riot squad.

"There is no rule of law in Moscow. The right to protest does not
exist. This is not a democracy," said Mr. Tatchell

"Today's protest was about much more than gay rights. We were
defending the right to freedom of expression and peaceful protest for
all Russians, gay and straight.

"The ban on Moscow Gay Pride is one aspect of a much wider attack on
civil society and human rights. It is evidence of a failed transition
from communism to democracy and of a rising trend towards autocracy
and authoritarianism," he added.

The arrests and assaults took place in front of and opposite Moscow
City Hall, as lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT)
campaigners assembled to hold Moscow's Gay Pride march.

The first people arrested were Mr. Alekseev and German Green Party
Member of Parliament Volker Beck. They were seized as they attempted
to deliver a letter to Moscow Mayor, Yuri Luzhkov, at City Hall.

"After they were driven away in a police bus, marauding gangs of
right-wing extremists infiltrated the Gay Pride crowd and began
indiscriminately attacking participants. The Moscow police looked on
and did nothing," reported Mr. Tatchell.

Soon afterwards, Mr. Tatchell unfurled a placard reading, "Gay
Rights," written in both Russian and English. He was set upon and
repeatedly bashed by right-wing extremists. Moscow riot police, the
OMON, stood by while neo-Nazis punched Mr. Tatchell in the face,
dragged him to the ground, and kicked him all over his body.

Clutching a bloody eye, he was arrested by the riot police.

"They arrested me, but let my attackers walk free," said Mr. Tatchell.

"The Moscow police gave right-wing extremists a more or less free hand
to attack Gay Pride marchers. Despite many of us being battered left,
right and center, the police only arrested a handful of the
assailants.

"Instead of protecting us from the violence, some officers seemed to
be colluding with the neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists. I saw them
freely talking to each other. It has even been suggested that some of
the attackers were, in fact, plain clothes police officers," said Mr.
Tatchell.

Following his arrest, Mr. Tatchell was violently dragged to a police
bus, where he was put in the intimidating situation of being detained
with three neo-Nazis, who had been arrested for other assaults.

While in the bus, he was taunted by members of the riot police. They
interrogated him as to whether he was gay. When he answered yes, one
of the OMON officers said, "Wait until we get you to the police
station. Then we will have some fun with you."

Soon afterwards, the police also brought to the bus the arrested
Member of the European Parliament Marco Cappato, of the Italian
Radical Party; Ottavio Marzocchi, a Radical Party European Parliament
administrator; and two Russian transgender activists.

Later Mr. Tatchell was transferred to an ambulance and taken to
hospital where he was treated for injuries to his right eye.

"My face is very sore where I was punched. My right eye is badly
bruised, swollen and bloodied, but it is expected to heal in a couple
of weeks," he said.

He was discharged at approximately 3:30 pm, and then taken to the
Tverskoi district police station in Moscow.

Mr. Tatchell filed a complaint with the Moscow police about the
assault on him, requesting that officers investigate and arrest the
assailants.

"Despite the appalling behavior of the riot squad and Moscow police,
the officer investigating my complaint was diligent, fair and
professional," said Mr. Tatchell.

At 4:30 pm Mr. Tatchell was allowed to leave the police station on the
condition that he report back to the Tverskoi district station at 2 pm
on Monday, 28 May. At this stage, it appears Mr. Tatchell is being
treated as a witness to the attack on him, rather than as a suspect.

"As I left the police station with several other released Gay Pride
marchers, we were pelted with eggs. Some of us were violently attacked
by a man dressed as a Russian Orthodox priest and by several
neo-Nazis. The Moscow police initially did nothing, and only arrested
two of the assailants under pressure from the Gay Pride marchers and
journalists, who had photos and film footage of the attack," said Mr.
Tatchell.

"Long after the Moscow Gay Pride protest at City Hall was over, groups
of far right nationalists and neo-Nazis roamed the streets, calling
each other on cell phones, apparently to organize additional attacks
on people they suspected of participating in Moscow's Gay Pride," he
added.

"Only a handful of far-right extremists were detained. Despite being
arrested on charges of assault, most of them were released very
quickly—long before the gay marchers were allowed to leave the police
station," said Mr. Tatchell.

Mr. Tatchell had traveled to Moscow at the request of the Moscow Gay
Pride organizers to support the event and the campaign for gay rights
in Russia. He was the keynote speaker at the opening session of the
Moscow Gay Pride conference on Saturday morning, 26 May 2007 at the
Swissotel.

ENDS
--
Peter Tatchell is the Green Party parliamentary candidate for Oxford East
http://www.greenoxford.com and http://www.petertatchell.net


PETER TATCHELL HUMAN RIGHTS FUND

Donations are requested to help fund Peter Tatchell's campaigns
promoting human rights, democracy and global justice.
Peter is unpaid and receives no grants.
To continue his human rights work, he depends on donations from
friends and supporters.

Please make cheques payable to: "Peter Tatchell Human Rights Fund".

Send to: Peter Tatchell Human Rights Fund, PO Box 35253, London E1 4YF

To download a donation form or a standing order mandate, go to Donations at:
http://www.tatchellrightsfund.org

To email PTHRF:
info@tatchellrightsfund.org

Thank you. Richard Kirker, Treasurer PTHRF

For information about Peter Tatchell's campaigns:
http://www.petertatchell.net
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moscow police – False arrest claims

Criminal investigation opened, but little prospect of a prosecution

Allegations that innocent people may face charges over Tatchell assault

London – 1 June 2007

Moscow police confirm that they have opened a criminal investigation
into the assault on British gay human rights campaigner, Peter
Tatchell, at last Sunday's Moscow Gay Pride event.

But official police claims that they have arrested the right-wing
extremist who punched Mr Tatchell in the face are untrue, according to
the investigating officer.

In another development, there are allegations that Moscow police are
trying to pin the assault on three right-wingers who may be innocent
of any involvement.

"I have been informed by police officer Evgeni Guskov, who is based at
Moscow's Tverskaya police station, that a criminal investigation has
been opened into the assault on me. Mr Guskov was the officer who took
my witness statement on Monday 28 May," said Mr Tatchell.

"In a press statement issued on 27 May, Moscow police spokesperson,
Evgeni Gildeyev, claimed that the man who punched me had been
identified and arrested. This is untrue, according to officer Guskov.
He told me that the assailant is unknown and has not been arrested.

"The false claim that the police have arrested my attacker looks like
a public relations ploy to convince people that the Moscow police are
taking action. It appears to be a crude bid to placate international
indignation over the police failure to protect me and other Gay Pride
participants.

"I have little confidence that the assailant will be arrested and put
on trial. Too many Moscow police are homophobes and fascist
sympathisers. They failed to protect us against neo-Nazi violence and
they failed to arrest the thugs who attacked us.

"At last year's attempted Moscow Gay Pride march, the German Green
Party MP, Volker Beck, was struck in the face by a rock thrown by a
right-wing extremist. The assailant was filmed attacking Mr. Beck. In
the Russian edition of Newsweek, he was named and was quoted as
boasting that he threw the rock. He has never been arrested, let alone
bought to court.

"The Moscow authorities protect the far right, even when they commit
violent hate crimes and make a public confession.

"I am very concerned by allegations that Moscow police want to charge
people with attacking me, when they may be innocent. The desire to
charge these men may not secure justice. It could have more to do with
rescuing the tarnished reputation of the Moscow police.

"Even if these men are fascists and homophobes, I oppose people being
framed on false charges of assaulting me. That is wrong.

"I did not see the man who punched me in the eye. I was looking the
other way. I did not see the right-wing extremists who knocked me to
the ground and kicked me. I cannot identify the assailants.

"A man in a brownish camouflage t-shirt attacked me twice before I was
punched in the eye. He shoved me in front of City Hall and punched me
soon afterwards on the other side of Tverskaya street. He looked like
the man who was photographed as he raised his arm to punch me in the
face.

"As a result of the violence against me, I have some minor concussion,
slightly affecting my balance, coordination, memory and concentration.
The vision in my right eye is damaged and blurred. Nevertheless,
doctors expect that I will make a full recovery within a couple of
weeks or so.

"These physical inconveniences are nothing by comparison to the savage
injuries often inflicted on human rights defenders in Columbia,
Russia, Iraq, Burma, Zimbabwe, Iran and Egypt," said Mr. Tatchell.


Moscow police – false allegations that they have arrested Mr
Tatchell's assailant.

International Herald Tribune - website - 27 May 2007:
"A man in camouflage clothing struck Peter Tatchell, a prominent
British gay rights campaigner, hard in the face as he tried to address
the news media. The police arrested the assailant and took Tatchell to
a police van for his protection, said Evgeni Gildeyev, a spokesman
with the Moscow police."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/27/news/moscow.php


For further information contact:

Peter Tatchell
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TonyGosling
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XXXX Editted by Ian Neal
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TonyGosling wrote:
xxxxxx.
Editted by Ian Neal

Tony,
With respect this comment of yours belongs in the dustbin; moderate yourself.

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David WJ Sherlock
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:59 pm    Post subject: Peter Tatchell Reply with quote

I am not an advocate of Gay Rights. Let me make that clear. but I Believe in let and let live. I do believe in God to a certain point. and I believe God would want us to fight this wicked and corrupt system. God gave people free will in this world. I do not believe you go to hell for being what you are by nature. What faith I have in God is the encouragement I get to carry on this fight for freedom and civil liberty. Good on Peter for joining the ranks of the fight for civil liberty. The church that is run by man is corrupt and is not of God. It is conceited and self serving, and tickles the egos of those running the damn thing. This is an analogy I use. If I have a naughty child. I will punish that child without violence. I would not harm that child. God is our father, we are his children. He may punish and rebuke. but he would not kill us for our wrong doing(Cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death according to scripture) what loving father would do that to his child. I believe these doctrines were conceived in part by men to control the populations of the world (Fear). Well done Peter I say. Fight for human rights.
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ian neal
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Through your belief in let and let live you are in effect a supporter of Gay Rights or put simply the freedom of all of us to live our lives as we choose without imposing our beliefs on others and in that both you and Peter are to be applauded

As an aside, my understanding is 'God' is undoubtedly real but my experience of established churches is that they are a very poor way of coming to know and reconnect with 'God' and the PTB have engineered it to be so. But that's just my take.
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Peter Tatchell Reply with quote

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
I am not an advocate of Gay Rights. Let me make that clear. but I Believe in let and let live. I do believe in God to a certain point. and I believe God would want us to fight this wicked and corrupt system. God gave people free will in this world. I do not believe you go to hell for being what you are by nature. What faith I have in God is the encouragement I get to carry on this fight for freedom and civil liberty. Good on Peter for joining the ranks of the fight for civil liberty. The church that is run by man is corrupt and is not of God. It is conceited and self serving, and tickles the egos of those running the damn thing. This is an analogy I use. If I have a naughty child. I will punish that child without violence. I would not harm that child. God is our father, we are his children. He may punish and rebuke. but he would not kill us for our wrong doing(Cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death according to scripture) what loving father would do that to his child. I believe these doctrines were conceived in part by men to control the populations of the world (Fear). Well done Peter I say. Fight for human rights.


Thanks David for this supportive post. I'm not going to get into a theological wrangle with you about the meaning of "God", but I do have to point out an inconsistency.

You say you are not a believer in gay rights. But if gay people have no rights they will continue to be persecuted in many parts of the world. Currently in various places where there are no gay rights, you can lose your job, face social ostracism, imprisonment, torture, death, enforced psychiatric treatment or be forced into a double life of a deceitful marriage due to social and legal pressures, all due to being gay, lesbian or transgendered.

I first met Peter in 1971 when we were both campaigning on these issues and though there has now been a sea change in public attitudes and British law as a result of that campaigning, Peter continues it in relation to lack of gay rights in many parts of the world. He is a brilliant campaigner and I take my hat off to his tenacity and courage.

Pedictably the tabloid press will continue to ridicule him and certain sections of the church will encourage this discrimination.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homophobic remarks have been posted on this thread and, moreover, by a moderator. If they are not removed, the message we shall be giving out will be that though we do not tolerate descriminatory posts against Muslims, Blacks, Jews, women etc, - gay people are the scum of the earth and fair game for ridicule, insult and worse.

I am patiently waiting to see if the moderators are going to take any action on the offending post, though I thank them for reinstating this thread about the Lewes group's meeting to the Events Section after an appeal by Marndin and me.

One serious point has been raised by Tony, and it is a point which was originally raised a few months ago by Keith Mothersson though never followed up, that Peter Tatchell could be doing the government a service by highlighting human rights abuses in countries which they are opposed to and may even be uncritically swallowing disinformation about those countries. That is a point which can be discussed with Peter and I intend to do so. I have arranged to drive him from London to Lewes on the afternoon of his talk there, so we shall have plenty of time to discuss this issue. I would welcome any relevant information from any reader of this forum which I could put to Peter.

Meanwhile, here is Peter's own account of what happened in Moscow, published in today's New Statesman:

Russia with hate
By Peter Tatchell

New Statesman
4 June 2007

Observations on gay pride

http://www.newstatesman.com/200706040019

On Sunday 27 May, in Moscow, I witnessed the latest assault on human
rights in Russia. A tiny, peaceful Gay Pride march, which threatened
no one, was banned on the diktat of Moscow's mayor, Yuri Luzhkov. At
the same time, President Putin effectively banned Gay Pride organisers
from holding a rally in a park near the Kremlin, having ignored their
request for permission. Russian law guarantees the right to protest.

Not a single politician from Russia's liberal, democratic or left
parties condemned this suppression of freedom of expression and
assembly. Cowardly and bigoted, they all oppose gay human rights. It
is a damning indictment of Russia's flawed transition to democracy.

The Gay Pride organisers went ahead anyway. Nearly 40 of us - mostly
Russians and a few international observers - gathered outside Moscow's
City Hall. When we attempted to deliver a letter of protest to the
mayor, we were surrounded by police. First, they arrested Nikolai
Alekseev, the organiser of Moscow Gay Pride and German Green MP,
Volker Beck. Then they tried to arrest everyone else. Most of us got
away. The frustrated officers withdrew and, as if by signal, gangs of
fascist and nationalist thugs appeared from nowhere and began
assaulting us. The police gave them free reign.

To escape this violence, we fled across the road but were pursued by
right-wing extremists and police. They were joined by hordes of
Russian Orthodox fundamentalists, openly urging that "sodomites should
be killed". The riot squad, OMOH (to give it its amusing cyrillic
acronym), made no effort to protect us.

After being punched by a group of neo-Nazis, I decided to move further
up the street. When I unfurled a placard reading, "Gay Rights",
written in Russian and English, I was set upon by the right-wing
extremists. The OMOH stood by as I was punched in the face, dragged to
the ground and kicked all over my body. Suffering from concussion and
nursing a bloody eye, I was arrested while my attackers walked free.

The OMOH officers forced me to sit with three detained neo-Nazis,
arrested for earlier assaults, and addressed me as a "faggot". One
officer warned: "Wait until we get you to the police station. Then we
will have some fun with you." For more than two hours I was denied
medical treatment for my bloody and bruised eye.

I let it be known that I am the Green Party's national human-rights
spokesperson and a parliamentary candidate for Oxford East. Soon
after, a senior officer was overheard exclaiming: "We might have made
a mistake arresting this one. It could land us in big trouble with the
British."

Fat chance! But fortunately, it worried the police, who suddenly began
to be concerned. They took a statement about the assault I had
suffered and called an ambulance. Later I was escorted to a central
Moscow police station, not as a suspect but as a witness. Eventually,
they agreed to open a criminal investigation into the violence against
me. I have no expectation of anyone being charged, let alone
convicted.

From the outset it was obvious that the police were colluding with the
fascistic thugs; I saw officers openly fraternising with them. And
though many of us were bashed, only a handful of assailants were
arrested. Most of those were quickly released without charge - long
before the Gay Pride marchers were allowed to leave.

The protest was about more than gay rights. It had wider significance.
We were defending the right to freedom of expression and peaceful
protest for all Russians, gay and straight.

The attack on Moscow Gay Pride is just one aspect of a wider attack on
human rights in Russia, including the suppression of environmental
campaigners and Chechen peace activists. It was also evidence of the
growing trend towards autocracy and authoritarianism.

Ends

--
Peter Tatchell is the Green Party parliamentary candidate for Oxford East
http://www.greenoxford.com and http://www.petertatchell.net


PETER TATCHELL HUMAN RIGHTS FUND

Donations are requested to help fund Peter Tatchell's campaigns
promoting human rights, democracy and global justice.
Peter is unpaid and receives no grants.
To continue his human rights work, he depends on donations from
friends and supporters.

Please make cheques payable to: "Peter Tatchell Human Rights Fund".

Send to: Peter Tatchell Human Rights Fund, PO Box 35253, London E1 4YF

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ian neal
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

xmasdale wrote:
Homophobic remarks have been posted on this thread and, moreover, by a moderator. If they are not removed, the message we shall be giving out will be that though we do not tolerate descriminatory posts against Muslims, Blacks, Jews, women etc, - gay people are the scum of the earth and fair game for ridicule, insult and worse.

I am patiently waiting to see if the moderators are going to take any action on the offending post, though I thank them for reinstating this thread about the Lewes group's meeting to the Events Section after an appeal by Marndin and me.


Hi Noel

FYI it was me that reinstated the thread.

Tony was posting in personal capacity. I have been waiting for Tony to either defend or withdraw his last post. I see no purpose being served by dissecting the post in public. However I agree with Noel that however Tony meant the post to be interpretted it most certainly could be interpretted as homophobic.

As a result I'm going to remove the post and apologise to those who have been offended by it. I suggest that if the interested parties wish to continue to discuss this further, they can do so by private email.


Last edited by ian neal on Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by xmasdale on Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ian neal wrote:

Hi Noel

FYI it was me that reinstated the thread.

Tony was posting in personal capacity. I have been waiting for Tony to either defend or withdraw his last post. I see no purpose being served by dissecting the post in public. However I agree with Noel that however Tony meant the post to be interpretted it most certainly could be interpretted as homophobic.

As a result I'm going to remove the post and apologise to those who have been offended by it. I suggest that if the interested parties wish to continue to discuss this further, they can do so by private email.



Thanks Ian.

I think there are further issues to be discussed which in fact are being discussed by private e-mail. I think we should keep it that way.

Noel
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David WJ Sherlock
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject: Anti-gay is Hate not fear. Reply with quote

I do not like this term "Homophobic". It should not be applied to anti-gay issues. I do not wish to tie us down with semantics here chaps. I am Claustrophobic. This means I have a fear of "closed in spaces" or being trapped. This word "Homophobic" implies one has a fear of gays. Right or wrong. Anti Gay is not a phobia, it is a lack of social intolerance. Homophobic is a "buzz-word put out by the PC brigade. I have always had a rapport with gay people. ((God this is going to sound like a cliché), I have gay friends. My Road Manager and my Manager were both gay. My niece is gay. she is getting married to her partner very soon. Say it like it is guys. They are gay haters. They are not scared of them. To be honest, I am not supporter or anti. I just respect their right to exist. It's Neo-con I can't stand.

Still. Heres a little ditty we can all enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jAzHQoi7cg

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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Anti-gay is Hate not fear. Reply with quote

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
I do not like this term "Homophobic". It should not be applied to anti-gay issues. I do not wish to tie us down with semantics here chaps. I am Claustrophobic. This means I have a fear of "closed in spaces" or being trapped. This word "Homophobic" implies one has a fear of gays.


Yes, I believe people's prejudices do spring from their fears and therefore "homophobic" is an appropriate term at one level. But if you want to get really pedantic about it, its meaning if you go back to the Greek in a literal fashion is "fear of the same", so people who are "homophobic" are literally afraid of people who are the same as them. Laughing But as is so often the case, words change their meanings through constant use and I use the word in the way it is most usually used in the first decade of the 21st century, whether we like it or not.

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
Right or wrong. Anti Gay is not a phobia, it is a lack of social intolerance.


No! Im sure you mean "a lack of social tolerance"

David WJ Sherlock wrote:

Homophobic is a "buzz-word put out by the PC brigade.



I think it was actually put out by gay people originally. Certainly the word "gay" was, as a preference to "queer", "faggot", "batty-man" "shirt-lifter", "bender", "poofter", "deisel-dyke", "carpet-muncher" etc which are derogatory, "Friend of Dorothy" which was gay slang, parlare, and "homosexual" which is clinical. Though the use of "gay" certainly used to lead to some amusing misunderstandings, Very Happy

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
I have always had a rapport with gay people. ((God this is going to sound like a cliché), I have gay friends. My Road Manager and my Manager were both gay. My niece is gay. she is getting married to her partner very soon. Say it like it is guys.


Yeah! And some of my best friends are shape-shifting lizards Laughing

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
They are gay haters. They are not scared of them.


Actually I believe they are. Why would you attack someone or even hate them if you weren't scared of them?

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
To be honest, I am not supporter or anti. I just respect their right to exist. It's Neo-con I can't stand.


Unfortunately, David, neither you nor I can have much influence over the development of the English language. Words mean what their regular users intend them to mean and meanings and usage are constantly changing.

In (Alice) Through the Looking-glass Humpty Dumpty says:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

Unfortunately what Mr H Dumpty says is nonsense. If we want to be understood we have to use words the way most people understand them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
Still. Heres a little ditty we can all enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jAzHQoi7cg


Unfortunately I can't access that on dial-up. So much for the entertainment. We need some fun in these gruelling times Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Anti-gay is Hate not fear. Reply with quote

xmasdale wrote:
David WJ Sherlock wrote:
I do not like this term "Homophobic". It should not be applied to anti-gay issues. I do not wish to tie us down with semantics here chaps. I am Claustrophobic. This means I have a fear of "closed in spaces" or being trapped. This word "Homophobic" implies one has a fear of gays.


Yes, I believe people's prejudices do spring from their fears and therefore "homophobic" is an appropriate term at one level. But if you want to get really pedantic about it, its meaning if you go back to the Greek in a literal fashion is "fear of the same", so people who are "homophobic" are literally afraid of people who are the same as them. :lol: But as is so often the case, words change their meanings through constant use and I use the word in the way it is most usually used in the first decade of the 21st century, whether we like it or not.

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
Right or wrong. Anti Gay is not a phobia, it is a lack of social intolerance.


No! Im sure you mean "a lack of social tolerance"

David WJ Sherlock wrote:

Homophobic is a "buzz-word put out by the PC brigade.



I think it was actually put out by gay people originally. Certainly the word "gay" was, as a preference to "queer", "faggot", "batty-man" "shirt-lifter", "bender", "poofter", "deisel-dyke", "carpet-muncher" etc which are derogatory, "Friend of Dorothy" which was gay slang, parlare, and "homosexual" which is clinical. Though the use of "gay" certainly used to lead to some amusing misunderstandings, :D

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
I have always had a rapport with gay people. ((God this is going to sound like a cliché), I have gay friends. My Road Manager and my Manager were both gay. My niece is gay. she is getting married to her partner very soon. Say it like it is guys.


Yeah! And some of my best friends are shape-shifting lizards :lol:

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
They are gay haters. They are not scared of them.


Actually I believe they are. Why would you attack someone or even hate them if you weren't scared of them?

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
To be honest, I am not supporter or anti. I just respect their right to exist. It's Neo-con I can't stand.


Unfortunately, David, neither you nor I can have much influence over the development of the English language. Words mean what their regular users intend them to mean and meanings and usage are constantly changing.

In (Alice) Through the Looking-glass Humpty Dumpty says:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

Unfortunately what Mr H Dumpty says is nonsense. If we want to be understood we have to use words the way most people understand them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty

David WJ Sherlock wrote:
Still. Heres a little ditty we can all enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jAzHQoi7cg


Unfortunately I can't access that on dial-up. So much for the entertainment. We need some fun in these gruelling times :D
I know what is in my own heart and mind. you have made me sound ambivalous. I would never go on a Gay Pride Rally or any other gay demo. but then again. I would never go on an anti gay rally if there were one. I could be Wrong, but with your "lizard" comment, I think you may think I am not being honest about my gay friends. Why would I make that up? If you were getting a raw deal off of another for being gay I would be first to come to your side. I am a supporter of the right to simply be. There is no life style issue as far as I am concerned. You are a Human, and that is what I would value and wish to help you preserve.
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http://www.myspace.com/GlassAsylum For D WJ Sherlock
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Anti-gay is Hate not fear. Reply with quote

David WJ Sherlock wrote:


I know what is in my own heart and mind. you have made me sound ambivalous. I would never go on a Gay Pride Rally or any other gay demo. but then again. I would never go on an anti gay rally if there were one. I could be Wrong, but with your "lizard" comment, I think you may think I am not being honest about my gay friends. Why would I make that up? If you were getting a raw deal off of another for being gay I would be first to come to your side. I am a supporter of the right to simply be. There is no life style issue as far as I am concerned. You are a Human, and that is what I would value and wish to help you preserve.


Please accept my apologies, David. No way was I doubting the sincerity of your words, nor even criticising your attitude, except perhaps for a mild leg-pull over your attitude to the meaning of words. I was merely trying to add a little light relief to this thread, which for me, as a gay man, has been rather a gruelling experience in trying to ensure, almost single-handedly, that this website does not become a place where discrimination against gay people is acceptable. Fortunately certain others have supported me and I think we have now established an acceptable principle. Thank you for your support in this.

The lizard comment was a flippant one, but did reflect that I wish people would stop talking about those bloody lizards, because the theory sounds so absurd.

This was not intended to be a serious criticism of you or your attitudes.

BTW I can't find that word "ambivalous" in any dictionary. I wonder what Humpty-dumpty would say about it.

Noel
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marndin
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Tatchell gave a fantastic lecture this evening and his logic was unquestionable.

I.D cards = a MASSIVE change in relationship between individual & state.

It will be possible for the government to delete your ID card should they wish to.

Phil Booth - No2ID was in the audience and also participated during the Q+A session. http://www.no2id.net/

Martin
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xmasdale
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it was an excellent evening.

Incidentally Peter is suffering severe health problems as a result of head injuries inflicted by homophobic thugs in Moscow, where he was aiding Muscovites' demonstration against the City's decision to ban holding a Gay Pride event there. The thugs were apparently encouraged by Russian Orthodox clergy and by Moscow police, and they were not arrested. However the victims of the violence were.
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