Altruism in a nutshell

[rodin]

Sounds great. Doesn't exist. Ranks along with Socialism as one of the great scams pulled on the goy.

Altruism is about putting others before yourself. Certain ants throw themselves into creeks & drown so others in the colony can cross the water to food. But in the process, many relatives carrying their DNA are enabled to survive.

You must disabuse yourselves of the notion that, just because you are 'good' you are altrusitic. A disbelief in altruism is a great defence against the PYRAMID!!!!

'They' will look after us.................................NOT!!!!!

If a species became 'altrusitic' they would be extinct in a few generations. This is just not the way the world works.

[blackcat]

Altruism most certainly does exist and "biological altruism" is accepted as a mainstream belief in animal behaviour. The term altruism has a more general meaning however and covers behaviour such as loyalty, duty and patriotism. It may well be in the interests of every member of a society to be altruistic to thereby do best for themselves in the long run, but the wish to help, and place trust in one's fellow man, is a strong urge in most people I believe. I think a world without altruism would be worthless. This is one of those subjects where sophists have a field day using specious arguments, rather like the religious nuts who insist that not having a belief in God is a belief system itself.

[rodin]

No, Altruism leads to extinction EOM.

On a plane you give yourself oxygen first...

Belief is the enemy of truth. Nothing is as it seems...

[Dogsmilk]

[rodin]

[Dogsmilk]

Whereas we may have a preprogrammed tendency to perpetuate our genes, I regard myself as being able to recognise and sometimes overcome my primate urges.
I'm quite altruistic towards my cats, but there's fat chance they'll be perpetuating my genes - they've all been neutered for a start, so not even any hair-raising monstrous hybrids there.
Jesus was big on altruism, but he hardly invented it in terms of a religious creed.

[ian neal]

Rodin

[rodin]

The point about the Jesus thing is this. How do we KNOW he is the Son of God, or just a Prophet as Muslims believe? Or someone who is apparently earmarked for some rather nasty business in Hell, as according to (as I understand it from my internet sources and correct me if I am wrong) some Jews.

I have cited 3 out of many religions. While most believe in some kind of divine being, they all claim to have the only true recipe for the salvation of the soul.

Blatantly thay can't all be correct, therefore a logical mind would arrive at the conclusion that none of them are. Furthermore, given the unimaginably large conspiracy we have recently uncovered whereby an elite program us with ideas and feed us false information, the most reasonable hypothesis is that religion itself is a mind control mechanism.

Love - nice work if you can give and get it. Of course, we love our family, to a lesser extent (I think) our friends. Common ground binds, and ties offer support. Most individuals benefit from a benign self-ordered community. Only very few individuals benefit from a society that has been ordered for them. Were altruism a mechanism that enabled the good to become the great, this would not be the case.

I remember reading that cats prolong the lives of people by lowering stress levels...

etc etc etc

Giving up the notion of altruism does not make the world any less good. The trouble with the lifeboatmen is this. They are definitely the good guys. Fantastic people who risk their lives for others, and for no monetray reward. In this extreme example I would have to concede it is hard to dispute altruism. However there is always another side of a coin. They are regarded (rightly) in high esteem by their peers for their unselfish duty. Plus they get a great spiritual boost from the comradeship and knowledge they are doing the right thing.

I guess what I am trying to do is to remove the scales from people's eys that blind them to the extent that altruism is NOT present among our leaders. If people see altruism as 'natural' they will find it harder to imagine how downright rapacious human beings can be.

In a world riddled with positive discrimination negative gets a bad press. Yet it is NEGATIVE FEEDBACK that corrects imbalances in systems. The current system (and the promotion of 'altruism' is an insidious part of it) is using POSITIVE FEEDBACK to enslave us. Usury being a prime example, with the debt/FIAT money system that continuously passes wealth from us to them by the fraud of inflation.

It's good to talk. Don't let them censor the internet.

[Dogsmilk]

Religion can be used as a control mechanism, but it's simply absurd to say that it is. For example, Christian Swords into Ploughshares people who break into military bases to damage bombers are hardly mind controlled drones. Not all subscribers claim to have the one true answer at the expense of everyone else - look at Unitarians. The three major monotheisms have numerous branches and interpretations within them that represent pretty much every political, social and inclusive/non-inclusive perspective you can think of. They don't even all believe in hell - for example Jehovas Witnesses believe you simply won't get brought back to life in the 'endgame' if you don't behave and worship Jehovah(and Jehovas Witnesses (and others) consistently refuse to go and kill foreigners on demand - that's actually pretty enlightened). I don't personally worship their deity, but don't think they're all 'controlled' - it's a highly simplistic, reductionist approach to a fantastically broad set of competing beliefs and interpretations. I may not share the faith, but I don't think I'm intrinsically more 'free' because of it. I've met devout people I found to be totally admirable and inspiring.

I'm not sure what you mean about only a few people benefiting from an ordered society. It depends what you mean by 'ordered'. There is, of course, a world of difference between social order and state power. Some social acts of altruism that do become enshrined in state legislature (after people fought for them) benefit thousands if not millions - care for the sick and elderly for example. And lifeboatmen of course - the fact they receive praise not censure is of course a good thing. If everyone thought they were a bunch of c*nts, this would not only be undesirable (I'm sure you'd be happy they were there if you were stranded in a dinghy) it would be irrational. The fact they get to feel good about themselves just shows how holding altruism in high esteem is of benefit.

[rodin]

Religions are belief systems unsupported by rationality. I suggest they were invented to serve an earthly elite. That is not the same thing as saying everyone who chooses to believe in their God is totally controlled - of course not. Some religions - the ones that demand ritual and monetary servitude, are much more blatant.

Of course I care about the people in the towers. Watching them jumping from windows is gut-wrenching, as is looking at pics of deformed (DU presumably) babies and war victims. I experience emotion no different from others of good heart. But I would still deny I am altruistic. It is IN MY INTEREST that the war-mongering b***ds do not get away with what they are doing. It is in my interests that my children grow up in a safer more honest world.

I too know splendid devotees. I am inclinded not to share their belief.

[Dogsmilk]

[rodin]

[blackcat]

That's a pretty feeble response Rodin. Why don't you just admit that as a human you have altruism the same as the rest of decent minded people. Without it we are all goosed and life would not be worth living. Even if you make the specious argument that altruistic behavior is self serving (it isn't - it is humankind serving) it still is an essential component of a life worth living.

[rodin]

I stick to my guns on altruism. Altruism flatters humanity. To deceive. It does not point us in the right direction. If it did not look so convincing it would not have gained so much traction.

Ultimately, altruism is illogical, whereas many acts of goodness are not. Were altruism taken to the limit it would (by definition) lead to extinction of the practiser. With the NWO agenda it fits very well. Richard Dawkins explained this very well, time and time again, in 'The Selfish Gene'.

Read Mark Gobell's quote from the Club of Rome - 'They' decided that they must convince us that the real enemy of humanityis humanity itself.

No. We can govern our selves and perhaps even our planet responsibly without resorting to any belief system.

Belief is the enemy of truth.

Now if you want to look for something else 'out there' to give us hope, you still have a chance even though the evidence points to all so-called religions being mind control mechanisms. Of course, the something out there if it exists will be hidden from all those but the very elite if possible.

What it is I do not know. I do not trust any so-called 'miracles' or magic - people can perform remarkable illusory tricks and do for entertainment. And for other more sinister purposes. Did you know thast many top lawyers are trained in hypnosis?

Anyway - chew on this. Earth is 5 billion years old. Human lifespan 3 score years and ten. Let's use Victor Rothschild and Queen Mum as yardstick - 100 years for the lucky few.

Earth has existed for 50,000,000 lifespans of a privileged human being.

This means that anyone reading this has a one in 50,000,000 chance of actually being alive right now.

As Harry Hill would say...

'What are the chances of that happening, eh?'

This is simple mathematical logic showing that, statistically, you should not exist. No ritual, black magic, donation to the cause etc. Think about it.

I have never seen this anomaly pointed out by anyone else, have you?

Lets go further. If the universe is infinitely old, then you stand an infinitely small chance of being alive.

Now that is a conundrum that needs solving.

[Dogsmilk]

[Dogsmilk]

[rodin]

I no particular order.

Selfishness leads to survival. Altruism leads to extinction. Of course 'a little bit of altruism' won't kill you. I just think its a sneaky word to make us feel guity if we don't give money to Bono...

And like I say, there's no reason why looking after number one should not in fact be the best for humanity as a whole. And by 'looking after number one' I do not mean coveting a Porsche. I mean keeping your own head & health in order so as to move forward. Helping others is instinctive in people because we have been taught that what goes around comes around. The leite do not receive such benign programming - quite the reverse. They are taught to deceive, cheat, lie, all without a conscience.

What is DNA? A string of information - a genetic code. The genes survive us via offspring. What is a meme? A string of information - numerical, pictorial, textual code. Memes survive us by being remembered. Memes can have a devastatingly wide and rapid 'procreation' if they hit the right buttons.

Genes can father children. Memes can father religions, scientific breakthroughs, etc. Why do we have the urge to post on this forum if not to share (ie transmit) information?

Did I miss anything? Oh - religion. All religions seem to be related - if not to each other then thru intermediaries. I think the earliest may have been conjuring tricks, or attempts to explain the unknown. But pretty sharpish the unscrupulous found out how to use it to their ends, and that's how it has been ever since. Of course, like altruism, it collects believers.

There is truth. Belief is just another way of saying you've given up trying to find it.

And of course the infinite...

There are many possibilities here. Probably an infinite number.

You missed one point - it is not the 'ant' who finds life today, it is YOU. There are any number of ants down thru the ages. But only one YOU. It is YOU who defy the odds aginst your own existence. It is I who defy the odds against mine. I cannot accept odds like that, and so seek another explanation. A scientific one preferably! I do not expect to be re-incarnated as an ant...

PS Negative feedback. Check out the governor on a steam engine. For positive feedback think of the sound at a bad pop concert. Nature's negative feedback mechanisms are all over the place, otherwise trees would grow to the moon, and one species would take over the planet...

Hang on, hasn't one species done that....

As the Club of Rome would have you believe...

[blackcat]

[Dogsmilk]

[rodin]

Hmmm...

Altruism is going against you own best interests. Taken to the extreme this is suicidal. Pure logic says this must be so. This is why it does not occur in nature. 'Self Sacrifice' is another name for it, and the elite like you to think this is a good thing. Of course they would never do it themselves... They would, however, without compunction sacrifice YOU.

For altruism to occur in us we must have 'risen above nature'... I make no such claim for myself. I think the whole meme is given us to our detriment. And please don't twist my words into

[rodin]

Hmmm...

Altruism is going against you own best interests. Taken to the extreme this is suicidal. Pure logic says this must be so. This is why it does not occur in nature. 'Self Sacrifice' is another name for it, and the elite like you to think this is a good thing. Of course they would never do it themselves... They would, however, without compunction sacrifice YOU.

For altruism to occur in us we must have 'risen above nature'... I make no such claim for myself. I think the whole meme is given us to our detriment. And please don't twist my words into

[blackcat]

[rodin]

[Dogsmilk]

[rodin]

You seem to have misunderstood most of what I said.

1) I agree there is apparent self-sacrifice in nature, but it is always to the advantage of the host's genes. It has a selfish purpose - to keep the line alive. You will never get one species self-sacrificing for the benefit of another. There will be a payback.

2) I never said I want to be like the stinking elite. I point out that they understand and manipulate us because they are ruthless - like an animal in nature. We must understand this, and why they are like that. They will be 'apparently' altruistic too if it is in the interests of their genes.

3) From my research the conspiracy we now labour under can easily be traced back to the 18th century with Mayer Amschell Rothschild. Already a 250 year plan. The longer terms I am open to persuasion on, though this Jesus bloke did seem to have a handle on the problem back then.

4) I am also keeping an open mind about Alan Watt. I think he is right about the predictive programming part - that we are fed in fiction what is intended to become reality.

5) In fact I am also questioning a disturbing item I found on Richard Dawkins site - which prompted the thread 'Imagine...'

My own interim conclusions are subject to revisionism at any time should new information come to light. As for truth - of course it exists. In infinite ways, independent of our existence. Some truths may be transient (distance of Earth from Moon for example). But some truths remain unaffected by the appearance of humanity. Before humans no human had ever set foot on the Moon, and that is as true today as it was then..

[Dogsmilk]

[chek]

I was walking through the park with my kids the other week when I saw something that struck me as extraordinary and maybe relevant to this topic.

A few yards ahead, an unleashed dog got hold of some martin-y or
finch-y type small bird in its mouth, though luckily the dogs owner intervened and the bird was released still in one piece. It was able to hop away to put some distance between itself and further danger, but it was obviously unable to fly.

A minute later a large magpie landed beside it and started attacking it, pecking away pretty savagely and was going to make short work of the smaller bird.

I was still wondering whether to intevene or not when suddenly two of the smaller birds mates divebombed the magpie and scared the sh*t out of it. It could have taken one of them, but two were just too much to handle and after some token resistance, the magpie backed away to safety.

A minute later it was back ready to have another crack at the injured bird when again the two birds attacked it and seemed to be driving it crackers in a hi-speed co-ordinated multi-dimensional attack. It was quite a sight! The magpie flew off into the distance this time, seemingly having totally given up.

It occurred to me that it was more than a match for any of the smaller birds on their own - but a lucky peck or claw could have downed one of the rescuers and all three would then have been easy meat, as it were.
Were the two rescuers acting altruistically, or was it some extended sub-type of dawkinesque species/gene protecting selfishness? I dunno, but it was real, red in tooth and claw, deadly danger - and what if the saviour birds were atheists?

By this time the injured bird had disappeared into the undergrowth, hopefully to recover and live happily ever after.
Unless something else got it later, of course.

[rodin]

[rodin]

Dogs... do you think that 19 Arabs did 911? Or are you with us 'conspiracy theorists' on that one? I forgot to ask...

[Dogsmilk]