Understanding 911 - Does The Holocaust Matter?

Dogsmilk · Mighty Poster Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 1616

Brian -

And, of course, Bruno Gollnisch is a high ranking member of Le Pen's National front.
What a surprise!

Regarding evidence, when we've tried to talk about it before we've got nowhere fast. For example, referring to a previous discussion, I'm still waiting for you to explain why the Nazis saw fit to simultaneously install shower heads and a gas tight door in Auschwitz crematorium III and why the Nazis desired a simply astonishing capacity for cremation there. I seem to recall you just abandoned that particular thread. You are not interested in evidence. You are interested in finding denier arguments that aren't obviously bobbins and spamming them here. What you don't seem to understand is that you don't 'prove' or 'disprove' historical events by firing out factoids. Deniers force the debate onto this terrain because denial works by exactly this methodology. When it attempts a historical narrative it ends up with something like the pitifully hilarious 'history' Toben attempts on the 'documentary' Alulim posted.
You keep banging on about evidence, but from where I'm sitting the evidence it didn't happen is looking rather nonsense. I mean, this 4 million at Auschwitz thing comes up again and again and again and it just doesn't get any less daft with the retelling. No-one has bothered to 'explain' Himmler's speech beyond an 'alternative translation' that German historians don't appear to endorse. that renders the content rather nonsensical if it is applied - there's a solitary piece of evidence people can't even be arsed to 'debunk' properly, so what's the point?
Why do you insist this forum - with a total lack of expertise on the subject - is the best place for discussion?
Anyway, Ian raised a good point. The Holocaust is not just about gas chambers. Over a million Jews were shot for a start. Out of interest, exactly what is your pitch? No mass shootings of Jews and gypsies? No T4?
What's your broad take on events?
Like, just out of interest, what do you think did happen and what didn't?

Let's not forget we were previously talking about the linkages between denial and the far right. Not one of you will even acknowledge this overwhelmingly obvious fact and are trying your best to get away from the matter.

SimpleSimon -

I do not have to justify myself to you. Here's a clue though that was mentioned in that very post - Ward Churchill. The opening chapters of a little matter of genocide make powerful reading - it's a book I'd recommend to anyone (though I don't agree with everything he says; Sparky thought police - take note!) - you should check it out. In fact, it is interesting with all this Holocaust denial, not one of you heroic champions of truth ever gets on your hobby horse about routine denial of the American genocide which I think I'd have to say was much bigger. Or maybe you deny that one too, I dunno. Today I think I think the Holocaust was one genocide among many though it's mechanised aspects were unique. Tomorrow I may change my mind. It doesn't have any bearing on it's empirical reality, it's pure opinion.
Like I said - it's called learning, evolving your opinions, moving on - your rather autistic trawl through my prior posts is bemusing, a bit disturbing and quite funny at the same time. You're a 'character', I'll give you that.
Otherwise, why you think this particular point is relevant to anything is beyond me.
From where I'm sitting you're acting like a clown, so feel free to rant and rave all you like. It gives me a chuckle.

If you want to respond to my last post regarding the absolute nonsense you were talking, that's up to you but I think you've just inserted your get-out clause. Very nifty.
Though if we're going to be childish, shall I remind you of how you've quite demonstrably been making things up and applying double standards to 'affirmer' and denier material, hmmmmm?
Heh - You are a FRAUD!!! Prove me wrong, Sparky!!

brian · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:37 am Post subject:

Dogsmilk, please lay out the evidence with sources.

Not too much to ask of someone that spends a great deal of time defending something he apparently has precious little to back up.

Dogsmilk · Mighty Poster Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 1616

brian · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject:

Dogsmilk, I have no interest in a conversation. Especially with someone that can waffle endlessly.

You have been asked to present evidence and have repeatedly ignored the request. Am I to take it that what you put in your previous post is the best you can come up with to support the claim that there was a pre planned systematic killing and disposal of millions?

ian neal · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject:

In dogsmilk's previous post he cites two pieces of evidence

Firstly, the design of crematorium III at Auschwitz, as in

brian · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject:

ian neal, I would have assumed you knew the difference between evidence and assertion.

In what respect does what Dogsmilk has presented represent compelling evidence to your mind that there was a planned systematic killing of millions of Jews?

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p17_Crowell.html

Wartime Germany's Anti-Gas Air Raid Shelters: A Refutation of Pressac's 'Criminal Traces'

Samuel Crowell

As Holocaust historians concede, hard evidence for mass killings in Second World War gas chambers has proven to be elusive. After an extensive search, especially of wartime German wartime records held in Polish archives, French author Jean-Claude Pressac acknowledged in his detailed 1989 study, Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers, that he was unable to find any direct proof of wartime gas chamber killings at Auschwitz (including the its nearby satellite camp of Birkenau). Instead, he offered 39 documentary "criminal traces" of such gassings -- what he called "indirect proofs."

These "traces" are wartime documents, mostly from the Auschwitz central construction office, that contain passing references to "gas tight doors," "gas detectors," and such. In the view of Pressac, and other defenders of the standard Holocaust story, these are implicit references to equipment or devices that were part of homicidal gassing operations.

In the following essay, American researcher Samuel Crowell presents detailed evidence of benign explanations for these "criminal traces." (note 1) ---

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n4p-7_Crowell.html

chek · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject:

ian neal · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject:

And you seem to struggle with understanding the difference between evidence and proof.

For example, if you take the question of what hit the pentagon on 9/11, eye-witness statements are evidence. Needless to say, some of these statements are contradictory or believed unreliable. Few would assert that isolated witness testimony on their own are proof of anything but all the statements are evidence. The challenge for an investigator is assess and weigh the evidence in the balance and to make a judgement as to whether the evidence supports a particular hypothesis or not either on the balance of probabilities or beyond all reasonable doubt.

ian neal · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject:

It seems you struggle Brian to direct me anywhere that is not tainted by its association with fascists / the far right

IHR founded by David McCalden (whose video you steered me towards previously) formerly of the National Front...... nice association

Samuel Crowell, self confessed pseudonym or pen name, whose reported identity is actually Bradley Smith of the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH) ...... hmmm .....

I'm not usually a fan of oilempire's particular brand of paranoia but in this case, I share many of his suspicions about why some people are going to such lengths to associate 9/11 truth with holocaust denial.

gruts · Major Poster Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 1050

Dogsmilk · Mighty Poster Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 1616

brian · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject:

So from those that are quick to point out the use of ad hominem I get little other than ad hominem.

Dogsmilk asks - What I think broadly speaking.

As far as pre planned industrial scale genocidal gassings go -

We know how difficult it is to convict for murder absent a body yet we are meant to accept the holocaust claims not only without the means of the crime being firmly established but with no evidence that such monumental numbers were killed or how such numbers could have effectively been dissappeared without a trace.

I simply do not believe such a crime could have happened and leave only such contentious evidence but also leave so much evidence to the contrary.

Dogsmilk · Mighty Poster Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 1616

Burning people tends to minimise the remains, but I don't think anyone is suggesting people totally vanished "without a trace" e.g.:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

These are from Treblinka, a special magical transit camp where people are recorded as going in but not coming out - though thousands of items of their clothing were shipped out.

Of course that means nothing; the Nazis likely had secret teleport technology (no doubt operating off Ernst Zundel's Nazi flying saucers in Antarctica) and as we all know from watching the fly you can only teleport in the nude. So the Nazis were simply "evacuating" Jews to the East in the easiest way possible. Of course, the 1986 version of the fly is very negative about teleportation, stars Hollywood Jew Jeff Goldblum and came out just as 'revisionism' was reaching its peak years! Coincidence? I think not!

Anyhoo,

brian · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject:

So once again Dogsmilk offers no evidence whatsoever of planned systematic mass gassings.

Once again he offers would be smart arsed comments that are meant to influence the gullible and intimidate the vulnerable.

The mentality of the stereotypical bully.

So - any evidence?

TonyGosling · Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject:

This discussion is a valuable one and the number of views and passions aroused attest to that. I'm not convinced of any link to 9/11 but I am convinced that the Nazi concentration camp model of slave labour for those that will not conform to the economic rigours of a new global electronic fiat currency is being considered by Western elites and Oligarchs today.

One thing that I don't think has been emphasised enough is that we should be going back to contempraneous accounts from soldiers who liberated the camps and those that were in the camps to decide what really happened.

IMHO it's possible that the Nazis weren't systematically exterminating inmates. Their motives were racist and economic and they wanted to work the internees on minimal food until they died.

They wanted a massive 'criminal' underclass to be their slaves and the SS were paid 5 marks a day by the armaments businesses and everyone else they worked for for that labour. The SS also supplied people for the many dreadful experiments which the Nazi doctors ghoulishly filmed.

As far as I can see there is evidence of buildings that could have been used as extermination gas chambers but equally I suppose it is possible they were used solely for delousing. There is also the fact that if this had been going on it would have been surrounded by a wall of secrecy.

What I find so very strange is that even raising that as a possibility seems to be a 'thought crime' of the highest order even though it is common sense without the hard evidence needed to prove that extermination gas chambers existed.

One could even argue that extermination was too kind and therefore not very SS-like... when the alternative was to be starved and worked to death helping the Nazi war effort.

Alexander · Moderate Poster Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 143

Dogsmilk · Mighty Poster Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 1616

brian · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject:

When evidence is absent - invent it.

FAKE PHOTOGRAPHS

--A startling case of such forgery was revealed in the British Catholic Herald of October 29th, 1948. It reported that in Cassel, where every adult German was compelled to see a film representing the "horrors" of Buchenwald, a doctor from Goettingen saw himself on the screen looking after the victims. But he had never been to Buchenwald. After an interval of bewilderment he realised that what he had seen was part of a film taken after the terrible air raid on Dresden by the Allies on 13th February, 1945, where the doctor had been working. The film in question was shown in Cassel on 19th October, 1948. After the air raid on Dresden, which killed a record 135 000 people, mostly refugee women and children, the bodies of the victims were piled and burned in heaps of 400 and 500 for several weeks. These were the scenes, purporting to be from Buchenwald, which the doctor had recognised.--

http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd07.html

gruts · Major Poster Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 1050

brian · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject:

What is made of this man -

Paul Rassinier

Paul Rassinier is the generally acknowledged founder of scholarly Holocaust revisionism. Born in France on March 18, 1906, and trained as an educator, he taught history and geography at the secondary school in Faubourg de Montbeliard.

During the Second World War, he co-founded the "Libé-Nord" underground Resistance organization, which helped smuggle Jews from German-occupied France into Switzerland. As a result, he was arrested by the Gestapo in October 1943 and deported to Germany, where he was held prisoner until the end of the war in Buchenwald and Dora concentration camps.

After returning home, the French government recognized his courage and suffering with the highest decoration awarded for Resistance activities. He was also elected to the French National Assembly as a deputy of the Socialist party (SFIO).

Rassinier was profoundly distressed by the many lies and myths about the concentration camps that were being circulated. He wrote:

"Then one day I realized that a false picture of the German camps had been created and that the problem of the concentration camps was a universal one, not just one that could be disposed of by placing it on the doorstep of the National Socialists. The deportees — many of whom were Communists — had been largely responsible for leading international political thinking to such an erroneous conclusion. I suddenly felt that by remaining silent I was an accomplice to a dangerous influence."

In a series of books, Rassinier related his camp experiences, and sought to set the record straight about the camps and Germany's wartime Jewish policy. A collection of four of his most important writings — La Passage de la ligne, Le Mensonge d'Ulysse, Ulysse trahi par les siens, and Le Drame des Juifs européens — has been published in an English translation under the title The Holocaust Story and The Lies of Ulysses.

Rassinier became increasingly skeptical of the reports of systematic killings of Jews in gas chambers:

"With regard to gas chambers, the almost endless procession of false witnesses and of falsified documents to which I have invited the reader's attention during this long study, proves, nevertheless, only one thing: never at any moment did the responsible authorities of the Third Reich intend to order — or, in fact, order — the extermination of the Jews in this or any other manner. Did such exterminations take place without orders? This question has haunted me for 15 years."

The number of Jews who perished in Europe during the war years, he concluded, could not have been more than about 1.6 million.

Among the many who were impressed by Rassinier was the great American historian Harry Elmer Barnes. In a 1962 essay, "Revisionism and Brainwashing," Barnes remarked on "the discouragement and smearing of outsiders like the distinguished French historian Paul Rassinier, who sought to expose the exaggerations of the atrocity stories."

Until his death on July 29, 1967, Rassinier was active in the anti-war movement, for example as a contributor to the pacifist monthly, La Voie de la Paix.

http://www.revisionists.com/revisionists/rassinier.html

brian · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject:

PAUL RASSINIER

THE IMPOSTURE OF 'GAS CHAMBERS'

Rassinier entitled his first book The Lies of Odysseus in commemoration of the fact that travellers always return bearing tall stories, and until his death he investigated all the stories of extermination literature and attempted to trace their authors. He made short work of the extravagant claims about gas chambers at Buchenwald in David Rousset's The Other Kingdom (New York, 1947); himself an inmate of Buchenwald, Rassinier proved that no such things ever existed there (Le Mensonge d'Ulysse, p. 209 ff) Rassinier also traced Abbe Jean-Paul Renard, and asked him how he could possibly have testified in his book Chaines et Lumieres that gas chambers were in operation at Buchenwald. Renard replied that others had told him of their existence, and hence he had been willing to pose as a witness of things that he had never seen (ibid, p. 209 ff). Rassinier also investigated Denise Dufournier's Ravensbrück.- The Women's Camp of Death (London, 1948) and again found that the authoress had no other evidence for gas chambers there than the vague "rumours" which Charlotte Bormann stated were deliberately spread by communist political prisoners. Similar investigations were made of such books as Philip Friedman's This was Auschwitz: The Story of a Murder Camp (N.Y., 1946) and Eugen Kogon's The Theory and Practice of Hell (N.Y., 1950), and he found that none of these authors could produce an authentic eye-witness of a gas chamber at Auschwitz, nor had they themselves actually seen one. Rassinier mentions Kogon's claim that a deceased former inmate, Janda Weiss, had said to Kogon alone that she had witnessed gas chambers at Auschwitz, but of course, since this person was apparently dead, Rassinier was unable to investigate the claim. He was able to interview Benedikt Kautsky, author of Teufel und Verdammte who had alleged that millions of Jews were exterminated at Auschwitz. However, Kautsky only confirmed to Rassinier the confession in his book, namely that never at any time had he seen a gas chamber, and that he based his information on what others had "told him". ---

http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd07.html

brian · Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject:

Machinations of Vested Interests

Rassinier thoroughly exposes the machinations of financial oligarchies, propagandists, politicians both racist and Zionist, various vested interests in sowing the seeds of hatred and war. Viewed in this light the destruction of a large portion of European Jewry becomes doubly tragic because the search for historical truth and accuracy becomes well-nigh impenetrable and the diligent searcher becomes lost in a fog of partisan propaganda.

The system which sets German against Jew, Jew against German, Negro against White, White against Negro will result in atrocity of one sort or another be it in "peace" or war. A system that allows power to accumulate in the hands of central banking systems and their bloodsucking proclivities, a system that places the compounding of interest above human life will provide the frame work for Hiroshimas, Buchenwalds, and Dresdens. "Man's inhumanity to man will continue."
-

Sept 11 fits well within that framework.

gruts · Major Poster Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 1050

well I had another look at this site:
http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

and in answering question 26 of the IHR's "66 questions and answers" they include the following information:

This is as quoted by the revisionist Paul Rassinier, The Real Eichmann Trial, 1979, p. 152.

Felix Kersten was Himmler's personal manual therapist. As he wrote in his memoirs (Kersten, The Kersten Memoirs, 1956, p. 162-3):
Today I had a very long talk about the Jews with Himmler. I said that the world would no longer tolerate the extermination of the Jews; it was high time that he put a stop to it. Himmler said that it was beyond his power; he was not the Führer and Adolf Hitler had expressly ordered it. I asked him whether he was aware that history would one day point to him as one of the greatest murderers on record, because of the way in which he had exterminated the Jews. He should think of his reputation, not sully it with that reproach. Himmler replied that he had done nothing wrong and only carried out Adolf Hitler's orders.

... I told Himmler that he still had a chance to stand well with history by showing humanity to the Jews and other victims of the concentration camp -- if he really disagreed with Hitler's orders to exterminate them. He could simply forget certain of the Führer's orders and not carry them out.

"Perhaps you're right, Herr Kersten," Himmler responded, but he also added that the Führer would never forgive him and would immediately have him hanged.

brian · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject:

gruts · Major Poster Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 1050

well, having found the page about the IHR's 66 questions and answers I just went back to it to see if there was any reference to Mr Rassinier and that's what I found.

if you don't believe that the reported conversation between Kersten and Himmler took place and that Kersten is a liar then please supply some evidence of that.

it was quoted in reference to the following question:

26. Is there any evidence that Hitler ordered a mass extermination of Jews?

The Hitler-adoring, Nazi whitewashing IHR's answer is (not surprisingly) "no".

Nizkor comments by providing a lot of evidence to the contrary, which includes the conversation between Kersten and Himmler.

you'll find it all here:
http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

btw - where's your evidence that 135000 people died in the Dresden bombings - as opposed to the usually accepted figure of 25 - 40000?

brian · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject:

gruts, my point, obvious to anyone giving it some thought, was that Nizkor and yourself were being misleading tying Rassinier to the Kersten memoir. Your dissembling only reinforces that point.

Kersten appears to at best a questionable source. From Wiki -

In his postwar memoirs Kersten takes credit for saving, among others, the whole Dutch people from forced deportation to East.... Kersten’s claims of being instrumental in saving Finland’s Jews from German hands might be exaggerated,-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Kersten

As for Dresden -

From what can hardly be described as a revisionist site -

Daily Telegraph

Horror of Dresden bombing divides nation

10/02/2005

--Another controversy surrounds the numbers who were killed on the night of Feb 13-14, 1945. The figure - estimated between 35,000 and 400,000 - has never been officially fixed, allowing extremists to manipulate it for their own means.

Only now has the mayor of Dresden established a commission of historians to produce an official death toll.-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/10/wdres1 0.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/02/10/ixportal.html

So the 135000 is well below the upper estimate.

gruts · Major Poster Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 1050

ian neal · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject:

Dogsmilk · Mighty Poster Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 1616

Nice quote mining of Wiki, Brian;

brian · Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject:

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