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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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 Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Youre right Jay |
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| Abandoned Ego wrote: |
Just one final thing Jay. We are still waiting for your evidence of the official conspiracy theory.
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Well the verdict in the Moussaui trial backs up the OS... Here's Moussaui signing as "the 20th hijacker" (scroll to the bottom)
He also signs under his other aliases this statement which ties him clearly to the OS. The jury found him guilty in open court.
Now...please supply me ANY evidence which supports the crazy CT.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing? Just the etheral, haunting sound of chirping crickets....
What's the matter? Stuck out in the hall? The paper holding your folded faces to the floor?
...and everyday the paperboy brings more....
Well here's some more:
LC dummies up "headlines" from MSM articles...only the articles are really just the American Free Press blog. American Free Press is associated with the Liberty Lobby...
| Quote: | According to the Wikipedia entry on The American Free Press:
Critics charge that it is a subtle recruiting tool for anti-Semitism and the political extreme right-wing. The classified section includes ads for the National Alliance, Christian Identity materials, and Creativity Movement books including White Man's Bible, Nature's Eternal Religion and On the Brink of a Bloody Racial War. The newspaper rejects the labels anti-Semitic and extreme right to describe the newspaper, and state that their classifides contain advertisements for a plethora of extremist groups, either left or right, and even those amongst the right-leaning racial/nationalist groups are varied, including Nation of Islam, as well as numerous links to tax protesters.
According to the Anti-Defamation League website, Piper spoke at a 2003 meeting of the antisemitic Zayed Center in the United Arab Emirates. (The UAE government later closed down the center.)
[H]e claimed that the Jewish conspiracies for world domination described in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the infamous anti-Semitic forgery, are "not a theory but a real fact." He described President Bush's policies as deriving from his "Christian fundamentalism" and the President himself as a "classic fanatic Zionist." He also claimed that Israel is developing an "ethnic bomb" that will "eliminate the whole Arab race." Piper elaborated on the classic canard of Jewish/Zionist control of the American media and government, and claimed that Israel and the Mossad were responsible for the assassination of John F. Kennedy, the Watergate scandal, and the Monica Lewinsky affair.
Unfortunately Ridley and Piper were joined by William Rodriguez, a World Trade Center janitor who helped rescue people from the north tower on 9/11 but who later got sucked into the conspiracy vortex. |
Why would Dylan Avery try and pass off a bogus report from such a biased "source" as if it were from NewsWeek??? Also the "Muckraker Report" is the only source for the "FBI has no hard evidence" quote.
"The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the US that it considers Bin Laden related" Funny thing to be doing since they have no hard evidence eh?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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*bump*
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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TimmyG
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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jay ref.
why start a debate with peoples who's opinions you can't even consider for a second?
its kind of a derranged way to behave
you are asking for proof of everything at once. without being able to discuss one issue at a time
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | jay ref.
why start a debate with peoples who's opinions you can't even consider for a second?
its kind of a derranged way to behave
you are asking for proof of everything at once. without being able to discuss one issue at a time |
Then pick one issue. Let's examine it. DeFecToR picked the "squib" since he had a cool pic of it with a snazzy red arrow and a "WHAT IS THIS!" next to it. I told him it was one of the vents from a machine room on that floor expelling excess air pressure during the collapse which BTW was already in full progress. I then reminded him that demo squibs are set off in order to initiate collapse...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated.
As I said before...my theory requires that there be a machine room, vent, and air pressure. All of which obviously existed.
His theory required the whole bloody conspiracy...and left no evidence...
Since then I've heard nada from the CTers. Now, if this was a site dedicated to "the truth" instead of a site dedicated to pushing an agenda, then I imagine quite a few folks might be re-thinking their theories about now. Maybe that's why they are so quiet? Naw...the conspiracy is way too much fun to push...right guys?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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TimmyG
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I told him it was one of the vents from a machine room on that floor expelling excess |
you see if i were in your shoes, pushing your arguement, i would have said 'I said it was one of the vents' as opposed to 'i told him'
another example "I've already told folks here UBL admitted it".
basically you are saying that you are the authority on this subject and your opinion should automatically be considered above anyone elses.
saying 'there are vents in the building' is not proof that the twin towers were not demolished. It is one factor to take into account. likewise saying that steven jones has found themate recovered from ground zero is not proof that it was a demolition. it is evidence to be considered. I personally find it hard to believe that fire in one corner of a very strong steel building (which officials have said would cope with multiple jet impacts) would be able to weaken the steel evenly enough around the entire floor, for it to initate sucha sudden and neat collapse. Given the governments (and western governments in general) track record of for lying and covering up the truth, it is not wacky/crazy/looney to consider that people in high positions of power would be making sure the NIST report doesn't reveal what they don't want it to.
if you have a rational opinion i'm happy to consider what you are saying and involve myself in a debate on 9/11 related subjects. (eg. the point about the air vents is a valid one to be considered in any investigation into the twin towers collapse)
but the way you go on it seems you are blinded by your own emotions on the subject. Angry at any opinions which are different to your own. constantly spouting insults such as 'looney', 'nutter', 'deluded', 'stupid','wacky'.....
you see your side of the arguement as irrefutable PROOF! and ours nothing but complete nonsense. when in reality you have no more proof than we do. just evidence and opinions
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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | | Quote: | | I told him it was one of the vents from a machine room on that floor expelling excess |
you see if i were in your shoes, pushing your arguement, i would have said 'I said it was one of the vents' as opposed to 'i told him'
another example "I've already told folks here UBL admitted it".
basically you are saying that you are the authority on this subject and your opinion should automatically be considered above anyone elses.
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Yes...my opinion is that there are machine rooms and vents. His opinion is that it's a demo squib which requires a massive and implausible conspiracy. You see why my opinion is worth more? I've not posited anything extraordinary. We all can agree that there are machine rooms with vents. The massive conspiracy, explosives, etc are extraordinary and require evidence. There is NO EVIDENCE! I don't need to prove that there are machine rooms with vents because every building in the world has these things.
Here's an example of ordinary and extraordinary claims:
Ordinary Claim: My coffee is hot.
Extra-ordinary Claim: God is scuba-diving in my coffee cup!
The ordinary claim can be taken on face value and is easily verified.
The extra-ordinary claim cannot...and is unfalsifiable...which means it cannot ever be verified.
| Quote: |
saying 'there are vents in the building' is not proof that the twin towers were not demolished. |
I didn't say it was. All I said it was was a better explaination than CD squibs in the picture that was posted...and it is. Wouldn't you agree?
| Quote: |
It is one factor to take into account. likewise saying that steven jones has found themate recovered from ground zero is not proof that it was a demolition. it is evidence to be considered. |
Prof. Jones found no "thermate" residue. What he found was a sulfur residue. The dry wall in the towers had a high concentration of sulfur. How does he know it was thermate?? Simple, he doesn't.
| Quote: |
I personally find it hard to believe that fire in one corner of a very strong steel building (which officials have said would cope with multiple jet impacts) would be able to weaken the steel evenly enough around the entire floor, for it to initate sucha sudden and neat collapse. |
The fires raged on multiple floors in both towers. The buildings were designed to withstand a B707 impact at an approach to landing speed. They were never build to withstand "multiple" impacts. They were never designed to withstand a B767 with full fuel moving in excess of 500mph! Someone has not done their research! As for "neat collapse" When the towers fell they clobbered other buildings in a 16 block radius! causing the damage to WTC7 which itself collapsed. So much for neat.
| Quote: |
Given the governments (and western governments in general) track record of for lying and covering up the truth, it is not wacky/crazy/looney to consider that people in high positions of power would be making sure the NIST report doesn't reveal what they don't want it to. |
The government has a track record of lies and coverups because they are routinely busted when they try and cover something up. A true evil and all powerful government capable of doing a MIHOP/LIHOP 9/11 would not have such a dismal track record. Simply, they'd be so good at it they'd never be caught.
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if you have a rational opinion i'm happy to consider what you are saying and involve myself in a debate on 9/11 related subjects. (eg. the point about the air vents is a valid one to be considered in any investigation into the twin towers collapse) |
Thanks. You have now agreed to the obvious...but hey, it's a start.
| Quote: |
but the way you go on it seems you are blinded by your own emotions on the subject. Angry at any opinions which are different to your own. constantly spouting insults such as 'looney', 'nutter', 'deluded', 'stupid','wacky'.....
you see your side of the arguement as irrefutable PROOF! and ours nothing but complete nonsense. when in reality you have no more proof than we do. just evidence and opinions |
There is a great deal of proof for the OS. Plus the OS is internally consistent and independently verifiable. It also has the advantage of being plausible without being overly complex.
The CT has NO PROOF at all that I've seen... There are some legitimate questions of course...but nothing who's answer would put the OS conclusions into doubt. Mostly the only points made by CTers is in the realm of minutae.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Abandoned Ego
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 288
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Youre right Jay |
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Thanks for citing one mans "confession" as irrefutable proof of this conspiracy. I heard a rumour ( just a rumour of course) that Moussawi looked like a Zombie in those trials and may have had some electrical implement tied strapped to his back.
But of course theres no proof of US authorities gaining confessions from torture now is there ? Too funny.
Perhaps you might tie up a couple of loose ends for me now.
What was Nick Berg doing with Moussawis email address on his computer ? Were they in the same philately club ?
Why were FBI field agents forbidden from examining the contents of Moussawis computer despite having them long BEFORE the attacks, until AFTER the attacks.
And this joke aside , any other evidence ?
This JRandi forum you frequent Jay. Know anything about THEIR background ? |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Youre right Jay |
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| Abandoned Ego wrote: | | Thanks for citing one mans "confession" as irrefutable proof of this conspiracy. I heard a rumour ( just a rumour of course) that Moussawi looked like a Zombie in those trials and may have had some electrical implement tied strapped to his back. |
Reeeally?? Well, that proves it!!! There really were squibs and drones and missiles!! Oh my! This instance of GOVERNMENT MIND CONTROL (make low WOOO-WOOOOING noises) proves it all!!!
| Quote: |
But of course theres no proof of US authorities gaining confessions from torture now is there ? Too funny. |
So now they're torturing Moussaui? And your proof of this is a rumor that someone unnamed thinks he looks like a "zombie"...great. Bring in the inquisition!
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Perhaps you might tie up a couple of loose ends for me now. |
I doubt it...your loose ends require a funny jacket and a rubber room to "tie up".
| Quote: |
What was Nick Berg doing with Moussawis email address on his computer ? Were they in the same philately club ? |
First, what if he did? How does that prove the conspiracy?
Second, how do you know? What is your source of this lovely nugget of trivia?
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Why were FBI field agents forbidden from examining the contents of Moussawis computer despite having them long BEFORE the attacks, until AFTER the attacks. |
Agency foul-up. They are a bureaucracy and made mistakes...these mistakes led to the formation of the Department of Homeland Security.
But I bet you knew that already....
| Quote: |
And this joke aside , any other evidence ?
This JRandi forum you frequent Jay. Know anything about THEIR background ? |
Non-sequitur...what would the background of the JREF have to do with the veracity of the CT?? I'm guessing nothing.
Why do you keep changing the subject?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | Timmy G wrote: |
this is no more proof than the controlled demo theory. IT IS A THEORY. YOU HAvE A FUKCING THEORY JUST LIKE WE DO. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?!!!?!!?!! |
Funny that. But all theories are not equal. My theory posits the existance of vents and machine rooms in buildings....(not very exciting though is it?) ...and then your theory posits the existance of a massive government conspiracy guilty of placing demo charges in the building. (wow, exciting stuff no!!??)
My theory requires: Vents and machine rooms to exist,..and air pressure.. :yawn: No controversy there I'd guess...even you would have to agree that 1. the buildings had vents and machine rooms...and 2. the collapse pushed air ahead of it.
Your theory requires:
- Expert demo techs working in secret.
- Explosives, det cord, blasting caps,..etc...
- Thousands of everyday people not noticing the demo techs.
- Drone planes to disguise the demolition.
- More techs to create the drone conversion.
- NORAD to "stand down"
- hundreds or more to keep their mouths shut. etc...etc...
That's just a partial list...there's also much to go wrong. The planes impacts could easily damage the detcords and primer connections. The demo charges might be found in the wreckage...and for what gain? To attack Iraq? By using Saudi patsies??
Insanity...that's the word for your theory.
It's clearly more fun than mine...but far less plausible. |
Does the term "PURE PWNAGE" mean anything to you?
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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scubadiver
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | TimmyG wrote: | jay ref.
why start a debate with peoples who's opinions you can't even consider for a second?
its kind of a derranged way to behave
you are asking for proof of everything at once. without being able to discuss one issue at a time |
Then pick one issue. Let's examine it. DeFecToR picked the "squib" since he had a cool pic of it with a snazzy red arrow and a "WHAT IS THIS!" next to it. I told him it was one of the vents from a machine room on that floor expelling excess air pressure during the collapse which BTW was already in full progress. I then reminded him that demo squibs are set off in order to initiate collapse...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated.
As I said before...my theory requires that there be a machine room, vent, and air pressure. All of which obviously existed.
His theory required the whole bloody conspiracy...and left no evidence...
Since then I've heard nada from the CTers. Now, if this was a site dedicated to "the truth" instead of a site dedicated to pushing an agenda, then I imagine quite a few folks might be re-thinking their theories about now. Maybe that's why they are so quiet? Naw...the conspiracy is way too much fun to push...right guys?
-z |
Would you like to watch the following Google video or is it too much of a waste of your time?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/bombs_inside_wtc.html |
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Mal Jones
Minor Poster
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Everyone seems to be getting hot under the collar about these ‘squibs’. As regards ‘vents from machine rooms’, the plant rooms in the towers were situated only on four pairs of floors: 7&8, 41&42, 75&76 and 108&109. Only 3 pairs were below the impact sites and the lowest pair would have been invisible to cameras on the day. This leaves two discreet levels on the buildings from which ‘squibs’ could have issued; yet on the various videos one can count at least half a dozen different levels issuing ‘squibs’. Besides which, air vents aren’t kept full of the sort of thing that produces a forty foot jet, they’re full of, well……air. |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | [
As I said before...my theory requires that there be a machine room, vent, and air pressure. All of which obviously existed.
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Do we know this? |
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scubadiver
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
As I said before...my theory requires that there be a machine room, vent, and air pressure.
All of which obviously existed.
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"Obviously"?
This dubious assumption doesn't support the official story very well does it? |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | TimmyG wrote: | jay ref.
why start a debate with peoples who's opinions you can't even consider for a second?
its kind of a derranged way to behave
you are asking for proof of everything at once. without being able to discuss one issue at a time |
Then pick one issue. Let's examine it. DeFecToR picked the "squib" since he had a cool pic of it with a snazzy red arrow and a "WHAT IS THIS!" next to it. I told him it was one of the vents from a machine room on that floor expelling excess air pressure during the collapse which BTW was already in full progress. I then reminded him that demo squibs are set off in order to initiate collapse...they don't go off after the collapse has initiated.
As I said before...my theory requires that there be a machine room, vent, and air pressure. All of which obviously existed.
His theory required the whole bloody conspiracy...and left no evidence...
Since then I've heard nada from the CTers. Now, if this was a site dedicated to "the truth" instead of a site dedicated to pushing an agenda, then I imagine quite a few folks might be re-thinking their theories about now. Maybe that's why they are so quiet? Naw...the conspiracy is way too much fun to push...right guys?
-z |
Would you like to watch the following Google video or is it too much of a waste of your time?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4380137365762802294
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/bombs_inside_wtc.html |
American Free Press was the blog that Dylan Avery dummied up to look like a NewsWeek story in LC2E. It's not a news source. It's just another CT site. It's ridiculous. And the video of Willie R.? Yeah, big waste of time. A confused janitor in the basement gets sucked in by loosers...great. Why not impress me with explosives experts and structural engineers that agree with the CT? The janitor doesn't cut it.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: |
As I said before...my theory requires that there be a machine room, vent, and air pressure.
All of which obviously existed.
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"Obviously"?
This dubious assumption doesn't support the official story very well does it? |
Yes...OBVIOUSLY. Every building in the entire world has vents to the outside air and machine room(s). Please show me one that doesn't.
So,...you are saying now that the WTC towers are the world's only vent and machine room free buildings? If so to call you a fool would be a massive understatement.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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:BUMP:
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Eckyboy
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Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 162
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Well thats a lot more constructive and concise than any of your previous posts Jay Ref. Keep up the good work. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Eckyboy wrote: | | Well thats a lot more constructive and concise than any of your previous posts Jay Ref. Keep up the good work. |
Are you going to step up to the plate and show me a high rise building that has no equipment rooms or vents?
Didn't think so...
The WTC had 8 floors of mechanical rooms!! There were vents in those mechanical rooms. (page 8 and 9 show machine rooms and vents as well as HVAC systems diagrams)
Also throughout the building there were miles of HVAC vents and plenum spaces which could easily transfer the overpressure from the collapse to floors with either broken windows or vents.
Your "squibs" are simply not.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Eckyboy
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Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 162
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree Jay Ref. However there is no more proof that this is the pressure coming out of the vents than it is squibs going off. It is pure speculation. I would also concede a point you made in another thread regarding only one source mentioning the WTC power down. I too have found this a problem and as yet I have never discovered any other source from either of the towers that can corroborate this report. We need to find other evidence this is the case but despite this I am still convinced 911 was an inside job based on other evidence I have seen. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Eckyboy wrote: | | I agree Jay Ref. However there is no more proof that this is the pressure coming out of the vents than it is squibs going off. |
Again, air pressure (which we know existed since the collapse had begun) and vents (which we all know existed) explain the picture.
Squibs from demo explosives (which we do not know existed, which left no proof of their existance, and which no one saw planted) also "explains" the picture.
Now I ask you, which is more logical? The first explaination which is uncomplicated, straightforward, and logical...or the second explaination which requires a massive conspiracy for which there is no evidence?
| Quote: |
It is pure speculation. |
No, it's a logical explaination vs an illogical one which requires magical thinking.
| Quote: | | I would also concede a point you made in another thread regarding only one source mentioning the WTC power down. I too have found this a problem and as yet I have never discovered any other source from either of the towers that can corroborate this report. We need to find other evidence this is the case but despite this I am still convinced 911 was an inside job based on other evidence I have seen. |
See? You can't be swayed. The "movement" has become a religion. Well just because you have willed yourself a spot in the cult; don't expect the rest of us over here in the real world to finance a new investigation based only on your cult's strange dogmatic assertions. Assertions which on their face are clearly false.
As "Astro" the space dog would say:
"Rotsa Ruck!"
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a video of the producers of LC2E being interviewed.
If you go to 6:50 you will hear Jason Bermas telling a NYPD officer who was present at the WTC7 collapse that he is wrong.
Big fun ensues from there!
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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TimmyG
Validated Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1798029680029341757&q=wtc+de molition
watch this. one of the squibs appears at exactly the same time as the collapse and it is near the bottom of the tower.
if it wasn't for your pathetic insults and the egotistical way you are presenting yourself, i would say that your argument concerning air vents is a valid one. but at the same time i don't see how some of the squibs could have been created by air pressure from the collapsing floor because they are so far below the wave of collapse.
i don't claim to be able to explain how the demolition charges were planted and operated. but the nist report just doesn't explain the uniform, near freefall collapse.
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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1798029680029341757&q=wtc+de molition
watch this. one of the squibs appears at exactly the same time as the collapse and it is near the bottom of the tower.
if it wasn't for your pathetic insults and the egotistical way you are presenting yourself, i would say that your argument concerning air vents is a valid one. but at the same time i don't see how some of the squibs could have been created by air pressure from the collapsing floor because they are so far below the wave of collapse.
i don't claim to be able to explain how the demolition charges were planted and operated. but the nist report just doesn't explain the uniform, near freefall collapse. |
Well? Did you watch it JJ?
Honestly, its not hard. You use your mouse to move the pointer on the link then you press the left button on the mouse. The video then plays automatically.
Cool huh?
So what do you think now?
I KNOW!!!
Its a surviving member of the hijacking arabs who made his way down the building with a suicide vest.
OR MAYBE, Bin Laden hired out some office space and rigged it himself just in case his idiot pilots lived up to their skill as pilots and missed the towers.
Yeh, thats logical.
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1798029680029341757&q=wtc+de molition
watch this. one of the squibs appears at exactly the same time as the collapse and it is near the bottom of the tower. |
I've seen that vid several times before. What you are calling "near the bottom of the tower" is not...the camera is pointed upwards. The two so-called "squibs" happen well after the collapse has begun. Also, demo squibs don't go off after the collapse begins...they go off and the collapse then progresses. One initiates the other.
Watch that video again...the cameraman wisely started hauling his ass down the road....the video only shows the upper floors...not the lower. Broken windows or open vents explain the video perfectly. But don't take my word for it...ask a structural engineer.
| Quote: |
if it wasn't for your pathetic insults and the egotistical way you are presenting yourself, i would say that your argument concerning air vents is a valid one. |
But my attitude has no bearing on whether the info I provide is correct or not. If I tell you a horse is a horse in as nasty a manner as I possibly can does that mean that the horse is really something else?
| Quote: |
but at the same time i don't see how some of the squibs could have been created by air pressure from the collapsing floor because they are so far below the wave of collapse. |
The tower is obviously full of air....the collapse begins and the wreckage of the top floors pistons down into the intact tube below. It's going to create a massive overpressure of air below the collapse in the entire tube. The overpressure will blow out of any open vents, broken or weakened windows. Have you ever seen video of a ship sinking? The same kind of effect can be seen during the last moments of a sinking ship as high pressure air is forced out of vents, and hatches.
The lowest "squib" in that video looks to be around the 35th floor. The collapse at that moment is several floors below the mechanical floors under the upper sky lobby. I estimate the collapse to be at about the 75th floor. So the collapse itself is 40 floors away when the "squib" appears. The second appearant "squib" pops at about the 59th floor while the collapsing mass itself is only about 4 or 5 floors above. Not so far below after all.
Go re-watch the video and consult these diagrams:
WTC design diagram
Tenants list (which also shows floors, sky lobbies, and machine rooms.)
| Quote: |
i don't claim to be able to explain how the demolition charges were planted and operated. but the nist report just doesn't explain the uniform, near freefall collapse. |
Then you haven't read the NIST report. Perhaps if they put in pretty pictures, or made a video you'd then be interested in it? If you can't explain the how the demo charges are possible, or why they left no evidence, or the cost/benefit of any evil motive in the first place...then it's likely because your theory is incorrect, unrealistic, unworkable, or all of the above.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Ally
Moderate Poster
Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 909
Location: banned
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ^liar^ |
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Sinclair
Moderate Poster
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Location: La piscina de vivo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Jayref,
is there ANY part of the Official (Conspiracy) Theory that you don't agree with, or have doubts about?
Same question to your mate, Johnny Pixels... |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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About what I'd expect from you Ally. Instead of shouting insults why not show where I've lied??
Perhaps because you can't??
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Justin
9/11 Truth Organiser
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 500
Location: Cumbria / Yorkshire Dales
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Please give your opinions about this Jay Ref:
| Quote: | Jay Ref,
You have all the answers so you tell us. So why won't you comment about this appalling mindset that is clearly influencing the White House/ NeoCon Administration? Why do you refuse to engage in dialogue here? Could it be you might actually agree with us....now that would never do, would it?
Please comment about this - I'm asking you politely:
Quote:
Lobbying for Armageddon
By Sarah Posner Posted August 3, 2006.
In a perfect world, a reporter at last week's press conference with George Bush and Tony Blair would have asked Bush, in the presence of his principal European ally, if he believes the European Union is the Antichrist.
Although it sounds like the kind of Pat Robertson lunacy that makes even the wingnuts run for the nearest exit, it's a question Bush should be forced to answer. Bush and other leading Republicans have lined up behind a growing movement of Christian Zionists for whom a European Antichrist figures prominently in an end-times scenario. So they should be forced to explain to the rest of us why they're courting the votes of people who believe our allies are evil incarnate. Could it be that the central requirement for their breathlessly anticipated Armageddon -- that the United States confront Iran -- happens to dovetail so nicely with the neoconservative war agenda?
At the center of it all is Pastor John Hagee, a popular televangelist who leads the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas. While Hagee has long prophesized about the end times, he ratcheted up his rhetoric this year with the publication of his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," in which he argues that a confrontation with Iran is a necessary precondition for Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ. In the best-selling book, Hagee insists that the United States must join Israel in a preemptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West. Shortly after the book's publication, he launched Christians United for Israel (CUFI), which, as the Christian version of the powerful American Israel Public Affairs Committee, he said would cause "a political earthquake."
At CUFI's kick-off banquet at the Washington Hilton, attended by over 3,500 members, Republican support for both Hagee's effort and his drumbeat for war with Iran were on full view. Republican National Committee Chair Ken Mehlman told the group that "no regime is more central to the global jihad" than Iran. Just two days before, Newt Gingrich and John McCain made the rounds of the Sunday talk shows to sound the same message, leading Benny Elon, a member of the Israeli Knesset, to comment to the Jerusalem Post that their remarks originated with Hagee. Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback also addressed the group, and Bush sent words of support to the gathering. Republicans, and even some Democrats, spoke at CUFI events to show their "support for Israel." But while public and media attention was on the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, Hagee's focus continued to be on Iran.
While the crisis at the Israel-Lebanon border drew more mainstream media attention to CUFI's activities, Hagee's supporters have long known that leading Republicans are listening. Rabbi Daniel Lapin, a prominent Jewish ally of the evangelical right (and friend of Jack Abramoff) has said that Hagee "without question, yes, absolutely" has the ear of the White House. Hagee's annual Night to Honor Israel at his church has drawn prominent Republicans, including Tom DeLay, who was the keynote speaker in 2002.
Although Republicans would never admit it -- they claim their support for Christian Zionists like Hagee is based on their own support for Israel -- it is clear that they know they need the votes of this constituency to win. In the same way that Karl Rove courted conservative evangelicals in 2004 by appealing to their homophobia, Republican campaign rhetoric for 2006 and 2008 has already shown signs of playing to voters who have been hearing hype for a war with Iran for months -- at church.
While Washington insiders wonder what it means when Republicans like Mehlman and presidential aspirants Gingrich and McCain finger Iran as the central player in an epic clash of civilizations, Hagee already has spent months mobilizing the shock troops in support of another war. As diplomats, experts and pundits debate how many years Iran will need to develop a viable nuclear weapon, Hagee says the mullahs already possess the means to destroy Israel and America. And although Bush insists that diplomatic options are still on the table, Hagee has dismissed * diplomacy and primed his followers for a conflagration.
Hagee wields "a very large megaphone" that reaches "a very large group of people," said Rabbi James Rudin of the American Jewish Committee, who has studied the Christian right for 30 years. With CUFI, the pastor has exponentially expanded the reach of his megaphone beyond his television audience. Thanks to the viral marketing made possible by the hundreds of evangelical leaders who have signed on to his new organization, his warmongering has rippled through megachurches across America for months. Hagee calls pastors "the spiritual generals of America," an appropriate phrase given his reliance on them to rally their troops behind his message.
The CUFI board of directors includes the Rev. Jerry Falwell, former Republican presidential candidate and religious right activist Gary Bauer, and George Morrison, pastor of the 8,000-member Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, Colo., and chairman of the board of Promise Keepers. Rod Parsley, the Ohio televangelist who is rapidly becoming a major political player in the Christian right, signed on to be a regional director.
For Hagee's new project, his influence in Washington is probably less important than his influence over his audience. With the clout of his listeners, he can serve Bush administration hawks by firing up grassroots support for a military strike against Iran. Over 700,000 people purchased his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," and countless more have heard him promote it on Christian radio and television programming. Dramatic, doomsday advertising has been heard by listeners of Christian media as well as on Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly's radio programs. The pages of "Jerusalem Countdown" provide a peculiar mix of biblical prophecy, purported inside information from Israeli government officials and a mixed-up, pared-down lesson in nuclear physics.
"I wrote this book in April 2005, and when people read it, they will think I wrote it late last night after the FOX News report," says the author without a trace of irony. "It's that close to where we are and beyond."
Hagee speaks simultaneously to two audiences about Iran's nuclear capabilities: one that fears a terrorist attack by Iran and another that embraces a biblically mandated apocalypse. To impress the fearful, he mimics Bush's deceptions about Iraq's capacity to attack the United States with weapons of mass destruction, Condoleezza Rice's warnings of mushroom clouds, and Dick Cheney's dissembling about an alliance between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida. Comparing Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to Hitler, Hagee argues that Iran's development of nuclear weapons must be stopped to protect America and Israel from a nuclear attack. Preying on legitimate worries about terrorism, and invoking 9/11, he vividly describes a supposed Iranian-led plan to simultaneously explode nuclear suitcase bombs in seven American cities, or to use an electromagnetic pulse device to create "an American Hiroshima."
When addressing audiences receptive to Scriptural prophecy, however, Hagee welcomes the coming confrontation. He argues that a strike against Iran will cause Arab nations to unite under Russia's leadership, as outlined in chapters 38 and 39 of the Book of Ezekiel, leading to an "inferno [that] will explode across the Middle East, plunging the world toward Armageddon." In Hagee's telling, Israel has no choice but to strike at Iran's nuclear facilities, with or without America's help. The strike will provoke Russia -- which wants Persian Gulf oil -- to lead an army of Arab nations against Israel. Then God will wipe out all but one-sixth of the Russian-led army, as the world watches "with shock and awe," he says, lending either a divine quality to the Bush administration phrase or a Bush-like quality to God's wrath.
But Hagee doesn't stop there. He adds that Ezekiel predicts fire "upon those who live in security in the coastlands." From this sentence, he concludes that there will be judgment upon all who stood by while the Russian-led force invaded Israel, and issues a stark warning to the United States to intervene: "Could it be that America, who refuses to defend Israel from the Russian invasion, will experience nuclear warfare on our east and west coasts?" He says yes, citing Genesis 12:3, in which God said to Israel: "I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you."
To fill the power vacuum left by God's decimation of the Russian army, the Antichrist -- the head of the EU -- will rule "a one-world government, a one-world currency and a one-world religion" for three and a half years. (Hagee adds that "one need only be a casual observer of current events to see that all three of these things are coming into reality." The "demonic world leader" will then be confronted by a false prophet, identified by Hagee as China, at Armageddon, the Mount of Megiddo in Israel. As they prepare for the final battle, Jesus will return on a white horse and cast both villains -- and presumably any nonbelievers -- into a "lake of fire burning with brimstone," thus marking the beginning of his millennial reign.
Hagee doesn't fear a nuclear conflagration, but rather God's wrath for standing by as Iran executes its supposed plot to destroy Israel. A nuclear confrontation between America and Iran, which he says is foretold in the Book of Jeremiah, will not lead to the end of the world, but rather to God's renewal of the Garden of Eden. But Hagee is ultimately less concerned with the fate of Israel or the Jews than with a theocratic Christian right agenda. When Jesus returns for his millennial reign, he tells his television audience, "the righteous are going to rule the nations of the earth When Jesus Christ comes back, he's not going to ask the ACLU if it's all right to pray, he's not going to ask the churches if they can ordain pedophile bishops and priests, he's not going to ask if it's all right to put the Ten Commandments in the statehouses. He's not going to endorse abortion, he's going to run the world by the word of God The world will never end. It's going to become a Garden of Eden, and Christ is going to rule it."
Sarah Posner has covered the religious right for The American Prospect, The Gadflyer, and AlterNet. This article is adapted from "Pastor Strangelove," which appeared in the June 2006 issue of The American Prospect. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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My opinion?
This kind of "end of times" twaddle gets trotted out every few years. There was famine in the year 1000 because in 999 farmers quit tending their crops since the world was due to end with the millenium. Same thing happened in the year 500.
People get sucked into this nonsense...enough people get sucked in and it goes from cult to "movement"...politicians can't afford to be seen as against the "movement" if it has attracted enough voters....once you get to really massive numbers of the deluded the movement becomes a mainstream "religion".
I don't doubt that humanity will eventually kill itself off...and I don't doubt that it'll meet some idiot's idea of prophecy...religion will be the death of humanity unless we can find a cure.
Hagee is a nut...he'd been proclaiming the end times since the 70's IIRC.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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