Am I an enemy of 9/11 truth?

[iro]

On a different thread pikey asked me these questions and suggested that i should stick to critics corner as i am not part of this movement due to my answers. I find that pretty insulting, paramount to a brainwashed canalised follow the leader focus that i see daily in the world of politics. I am no longer shocked to see this clique-y and singular ethos expressed here as many members seem to be infested with the delusion that they are crusaders of truth on a divine mission that the world will eventually follow them on.

if i am now a 'critic' for holding these views and am unwelcome here then i will no longer post here and interrupt your campaign. I will judge whether i will continue to contribute or not based on the balance of replies to this thread.

it began when i wrote this:

[Bicnarok]

Don´t stick to any corner.

IMO If you or anyone has an opinion then they have the right to post it. Truth can only come from scrutiny of apparent facts or fiction, if there is a thread of doubt in any subject then it should be elliminated through discussion and if there is no conclusion made then we should agree to disagree until new evidence appears.

You are an enemy of the truth if you don´t expess it.

[brian]

The only thing I would question is the refusal to sign the petition.

Even if you are correct that under present conditions it will not happen surely it is one way of bringing notice to the issue which in itself is necessary before the conditions can even begin to be changed.

[Bicnarok]

Im not signing any petition either, for the simple reason that I dont trust anyone, and having my signature on some paper work can be used against me in the future.

Who knows what will be happening in 2 or 3 years. Don´t want to be tortured as a terrorist for signing some pointless petition.

[kbo234]

[ian neal]

Hi Iro

I sincerely hope you will choose to stick around and come to know us all better. One thing I have tried to achieve (or atleast influence) through this forum/campaign is a lack of an inner clique or any type of elitism based on who has been involved longest or whatever. And I for one have no desire to replicate the ridiculous power games and politicking of mainstream political parties or even many established campaigning organisations and by and large I'm happy with how we have grown.

Now clearly, you and Pikey (aka Steve) may have a few bridges to mend but I ask you not to write off what is genuinely a grass roots network on the basis of this exchange and it is also worth baring in mind that people often say things or come across differently in cyber space than they communicate in real life.

My other advice (and this applies to us all) is to focus on people who you do have common ground with and pay less attention to those that don't share your take. Amongst any diverse group of campaigners, you will always find a few characters who rub you up the wrong way perhaps.

To take an example, iro. You are clearly not v impressed by the 'no planes' (more accurately known as the No big boeings NBBs) hypothesis and you are not alone. But rather than focus lots of energy trying to convince those that do follow the NBBs hypothesis of the 'error' of their ways, my advice would be to talk up and focus on those angles of the evidence that you do find convincing and leave NBBs advocates to follow their own path.

I hope this helps.

PS Pikey's a lovely guy who is not 'cliquey' (even if that is how he has come across) as I'm sure you would discover were you two to meet.

PPS Whilst I would encourage people to sign the petition, I understand if people choose not to and it is certainly not some kind of requirement.

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

Watch the attached documentary (very good) and you will see a missile (not a plane) hit WTC2

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

HERE IT IS

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3891535120990840079&q=SYMBOL ISM

[Ignatz]

[paul wright]

[Ignatz]

[iro]

oh god how did this become a no planes thread

[Ignatz]

[iro]

[prole art threat]

[paul wright]

This is all descending crappage isnt it
Time to get out and start again rather than reiterate
Iro you need to get into the collective reality whilst retaining your own, twsuf you need to stop it, well Pikey's just Pikey
We're heading this towards heaven not hell and we just need to realise

[Ignatz]

[prole art threat]

[Ignatz]

[iro]

that comment by prole :

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[chek]

[iro]

arrogance is still arrogance and it is not pretty and certianly not constructive

[Skeptic]

I agree with much of what you say iro.

You don't seem much of an enemy to 9/11 Truth to me, just someone who is very pragmatic about their approach.

Your ideas re: avoiding no planes theories and not adopting a condescending view to the general public are helpful and should be taken on board by all.

Most importantly, civil disobedience is absolutely key. We need to get the idea of General Strike into everyone's heads. I think it is only through action such as this that any genuine change can be made. Perhaps we should think less in terms of reaching critical mass for political influence and more in terms of reaching enough people to successfully execute a general strike.

[xmasdale]

[iro]

hi noel - thanks for the detailed reply - i would add that my no planes comment was only in direct response to being asked how best to achieve a MASSIVE and quick public support for this cause... in the wider sense i couldn't care less who believes or expounds upon no planes - thats their right, but i dont think it has a place in this campaign if, for example, i am told i have no place in it because i hold a critical viewpoint of the directions taken on here

...if you get me....

i get the distinct impression i have gathered here is that there is a quandary on the issue of whether it is best to have loose guidance or strong leadership on this campaign ... and since the former has been adopted the implications of that are having open wounds for critics to pick at and a lack of coordination from the members in terms of what they say publicly to others (here) which is damaging in the long run as people literally get intimidated and bullied.

That is an admirable position - but it is damaging to the image and to the stranger who wanders in expecting to find a warm accepting community of 'enlightened' persons united in a noble cause - and instead finds something similar to a pub brawl at a workers party conference.

There is little debate here as the 'core' have all settled on an idea of the truth for the most part and anyone outside of that is a shill or an outsider as i have been led to feel.

there is far too much shouting and arrogance from some people who are only doing it because they know very little and are compensating. I actually have had more stimulation from the critics in some senses as at least they are objective.

i am sorry if i have offended the many brilliant people i have conversed with on here, but responsibility is a pinnacle of any organisation, loose or not, and sooner or later there is going to have to be proactive moderation from those who feel that there is a bigger objective here than letting various ego's be fulfilled

[ishaar]

I thought critics corner was strictly for those time wasters who rarely have anything intelligent to say, who rebut evidence with silly meaningless comments. Iro's post's are intelligent, pertinent, and generally well worth reading.....thats my opinion.

I think you have to be very careful when talking about who can express their views, and where they can do it, for obvious reasons.

[graphicequaliser]

[iro]

[flamesong]

To answer your question, iro, personally, I don't think that there is anything wrong with having high analytical standards which would mean that one would not swallow everything without chewing it first.

The person who seems to be giving you grief here has in my experience demonstrated that they have a poor level of analysis and have often swallowed whole lumps of gristle. Though they adamantly deny it now, they were very keen on leading the 9/11 Truth campaign with the now almost universally discredited missile pod/flash theory despite my protestations.

They have recently claimed to have never believed in it - which is utterly untrue. They also make frequent appeals to 'play the man not the ball' though they clearly are attacking you - not your arguments - here. They have also made personal attacks on me - though usually by private message.

And incidentally, at the outset they proposed that the organisation should adopt an ordinal system of membership numbers, presumably to give them seniority. You will notice how often they like to boast about what they have done and challenge anybody who disagrees with them to reveal what they have done. It is a bit like watching a patheticly insecure sub-dominant male on a wildlife programme.

You have adopted a very awkward position in the middle ground and you are very likely to come under attack from all sides - as I have despite having been a 9/11 activist for years before the UK Truth Campaign began. As I have pointed out to those 9/11 activist who attack me, campaigning for the truth means that one must accept the truth - no matter how unpalatable it may prove to be - and that conjecture is not fact.

It is for this reason that I chose to no longer be a regular participant in the forum, though my attention was drawn to a discussion in another thread to which I felt compelled to contribute.