You say we are causing a breach of peace. do you agree that there should be an exclusion of free speech around Parliament?
David
It appears you only ever read part of any post, I did not say you are causing a breach of the peace - I very clearly stated what I meant.
I fully acknowledge it can be very difficult to shift perspective - however attempt to alter your thinking and imagine you were a member of the security personnel working the crowd at Live Earth and you are confronted with someone displaying the banner in question. The crowd would have been multi-cultural, Americans included. Before you know it a fight has broken out between the banner carriers and someone who lost a loved one in 911/Bush supporters/patriots/whoever. They were only doing their job - I am not standing up for the security staff - I merely stated that I understood why the banner carriers were ejected.
Having been a serving police officer, you have to be able to perspective shift all the time, see things from another stance, it is one of the key skills you develop. The 911 banner was just as potentially volatile as one being carried by a Vietnamese dog butcher through crufts claiming 'Dog Meat Is Tasty'. Such things provoke strong reactions - I simply pointed out that doing stuff like that is likely to trigger all kinds of adverse responses - the 911 banner incident was a stunt doomed to failure - simply accept that and understand the reasons why. They were carrying a video camera because they were expecting trouble - they anticipated being ejected - we all know this. Denying this is plain foolhardy and those who do, do so for effect.
You were accused of nothing, this site was accused of nothing - I strongly urge you to read exactly what is written in future - don't react, respond instead.
Equally, it isn't about truth or free speech either, it is about minimising potential problems at a public event. My comments in no way 'sided' with the bad guys - I simply said I understood why the banner carriers were ejected - it was an inappropriate forum for such material - you yourself are adopting EXACTLY the same stance yourself now - attempting to stop someone having a say.
I do not bad mouth people unlike some, I do not lose my temper and throw hissy fits unlike some, I simply state a balanced view and pose questions that many find awkward, you being one.
I acknowlege you are always polite. You have never been rude or abusiveto me. but if we cannot access public arenas. How then do we get our message to the masses. But if I had some who was killed in the towers. i would be be discerning enough to see the lie. I not sure if you are aware. There is a movent called Victims Families for Nine eleven Truth. And pilots too. I am offended at the global warming lie. i would not attack those who believe it. i would try to educate them. _________________ "It's called the American Dream, because you have to be alseep to believe it"
The 911 banner was just as potentially volatile as one being carried by a Vietnamese dog butcher through crufts claiming 'Dog Meat Is Tasty'.
Why is there a comparison? Telling dog lovers that dogs are tasty is offensive and inflammatory and doing so at a convention where dog lovers gather would be deliberately provocative. Surely a banner proclaiming 9/11 truth at a global warming rally is about as offensive as a banner saying "let's get out of the European Union" or something equally unconnected with global warming.
"I am offended at the global warming lie. i would not attack those who believe it. i would try to educate them."
and where exactly did you acquire your education of it?
Through using my mind. My powers of discernmentt. By opening my eyes to the obvious. and reviewing the reams of evidence. _________________ "It's called the American Dream, because you have to be alseep to believe it"
The 911 banner was just as potentially volatile as one being carried by a Vietnamese dog butcher through crufts claiming 'Dog Meat Is Tasty'.
Why is there a comparison? Telling dog lovers that dogs are tasty is offensive and inflammatory and doing so at a convention where dog lovers gather would be deliberately provocative. Surely a banner proclaiming 9/11 truth at a global warming rally is about as offensive as a banner saying "let's get out of the European Union" or something equally unconnected with global warming.
Live Earth was awash with people who would react in a negative way to '911 was an inside job' emblazoned across a banner - we all know this. Those carrying the banner knew this too - they carried a camera to record the negativity then post it on the internet. It was never meant to get a message out - it was designed to pan out exactly as it did.
The dog analogy is a perfect comparison - you are looking at this through blackcat's eyes and totally ignore the potential millions of people who would experience negativity by having those words broadcast into their homes. Without wishing to appear provocative, a simple perspective shift, and it is quite possible to appreciate that not everyone thinks as those here do.
What you think is an everyday and easily acceptable belief, most of the world still do not and most of the world was watching. Many would find it highly offensive, unfurling such a banner and for those outside the Loose Change loop would label them as CT nutters - you know this.
It seems that what some people are implying is that only people who are aware of the paradigm shifting truth should be exposed to it.
Sorry, but time is short and maybe it should be rammed down peoples' throats.
My only criticism is that they failed to capture the act effectively on video. Watching it I was like a purple faced studio director screaming, 'lift the fücking camera!'
" Through using my mind. My powers of discernmentt. By opening my eyes to the obvious. and reviewing the reams of evidence."
in essence you're just another layman then.
Now listen Lockerbir I have been polite and patient with you. But you are beging to overstep the mark. I believe and care deeply for this movement. We exist to bring the truth to people. I feel you are just trying to cause unrest and disharmony. Well rest assured. You can never break resolve. We believe in what we are doing. If your only cause in life is to pour scorn on others. Then I find that sad. If I and all the others in our movement are "laymen". then I am proud to be a laymen. And proud to be with the the laymen in this movement.
9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB _________________ "It's called the American Dream, because you have to be alseep to believe it"
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 1158 Location: South Essex
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject:
lockerbie wrote:
" Through using my mind. My powers of discernmentt. By opening my eyes to the obvious. and reviewing the reams of evidence."
in essence you're just another layman then.
You've got some cheek posting that on this site.
We are all laymen here didn't you know that? we all have work to do in the "real world", and have families and loved ones and live in a world where a great lie has been unveiled.
It is our duty to further the cause of exposing the great lie for our families futures sake.
Why you post in the negative we can only guess at, but exposing the truth is so very obviously not your brief.
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject:
lockerbie wrote:
"We exist to bring the truth to people."
truth sleeps with expertise.
But...... some of the people who post here are real-life experts in their fields, and their opinions still don't necessarily coincide with the official view.
As two examples, visit the 'pilots for truth' website, and have a look at Calum Douglas' research, both of which stand up to the greatest scrutiny.
With regard to global warming, there doesn't seem to be much denying of it here, but theres a lot of objection to the way the PTB have hijacked it to suit their own sinister ends.
Last edited by wepmob2000 on Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Live Earth was awash with people who would react in a negative way to '911 was an inside job' emblazoned across a banner - we all know this.
Do we? Or is that just your opinion stated as if a fact?
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Those carrying the banner knew this too - they carried a camera to record the negativity then post it on the internet. It was never meant to get a message out - it was designed to pan out exactly as it did.
Your opinion again. You could be wrong!!
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The dog analogy is a perfect comparison
It is a lousy comparison.
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you are looking at this through blackcat's eyes
Whereas you are looking at this through the eyes of a superior intellect capable of an objectivity that mere mortals cannot replicate??
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millions of people who would experience negativity by having those words broadcast into their homes.
Maybe they would be galvanised to look into matters instead of believing the pap they are fed. How do you know?
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Without wishing to appear provocative, a simple perspective shift, and it is quite possible to appreciate that not everyone thinks as those here do.
Or even think at all?
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What you think is an everyday and easily acceptable belief, most of the world still do not and most of the world was watching.
I did not ever find it "everyday" and it took two years before I even questioned it. Only when someone suggested that 9/11 was not what it seemed did I look into it. Which is why it is so important to try to get others to just LOOK. When anyone looks it is so BLATANT.
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Many would find it highly offensive, unfurling such a banner and for those outside the Loose Change loop would label them as CT nutters - you know this.
I know no such thing. Many families who lost love ones find it highly offensive that the perpetrators are getting away with the mass murder and will continue to do so unless people bring this monstrous deceit to their attention. People are outside the Loose Change loop only because they have never been offered an alternative. They never will unless brave people bring the message to them. If that means facing the same police who slaughtered people who were agitiating for universal franchise, or beat women wanting universal suffrage, or murdered black Americans trying to get equality, or nailed Jesus to the cross, then so be it. The police will do what their masters bid them and it is up to others to make sure their masters are reasonable because police the world over will, and always have, done what they are ordered, whatever those orders are.
Sainsbury's was awash with people who would react in a negative way to '911 was an inside job' emblazoned across a banner - we all know this. Those carrying the banner knew this too - they carried a camera to record the negativity then post it on the internet. It was never meant to get a message out - it was designed to pan out exactly as it did.
We wouldn't want to wake those loyal nectarcard holders as they dutifully go about their vacuous consumption now, would we?!
It appears that some still cannot grasp the concept of my view, we are off on all kinds of affronted tangents.
Although Live Earth was open to the public, there was a fee paid for that privilege. In other words, for the purposes of the day, it was a public place, however, there were terms and conditions of entry, do anything that 'we' deem to step outside the realms of acceptability and you are gone. This would range from drunken brawling to displaying banners that stepped outside of the theme of the day. Yes, the latter is purely down to opinion - but your opinion or mine doesn't matter, for on the day, that fell to others to decide and judge.
When I said that the event would have had many people opposed to any message outside the remit of the day, this is unquestionable. There would have been producers on site, an enormous production team, a phalanx of security personnel, not to mention X number of the audience with extreme views either way and everything in the midddle.
As for how do I know this - I know two people who went and they both believe the 911 conspiracy concept is complete tosh.
I would add that I thoroughly and completely endorse the 911 message being actively displayed and broadcast - BUT from what I have witnessed from the video of Live Earth, it was a very half-hearted attempt.
They appear to stand in a location easily accessed by security, if you were doing it, then would you not get in a position surrrounded by a thick crowd of people near one of those overhead cameras. Wait until the camera was sweeping past then get the banner up and then down when it had gone by, then wait for the next pass? Maximise the impact, for having bought tickets, made your banner, made the journey - getting the message out all seems so much an afterthought.
I am not being critical of the act itself - just the way it appears to have been done. It comes across as the act of being ejected and having that on film was more important than getting the banner seen by the world.
Just my opinion, it is not intended to be anything else.
I know two people who went and they both believe the 911 conspiracy concept is complete tosh.
Have they looked at any evidence?
I originally gave them Painful Deceptions then Loose Change some time later, and assorted paper based stuff with a list of associated 911 truth type sites on. I would point out that his partner is half-American and is a staunch Bush supporter.
The next time I saw the male half of the duo he was even more adamant that it was conspiracy theory nonsense. We also talked shortly after the BBC documentary and this was enough to cement him firmly in the official theory camp.
I would also add that they only went to Live Earth to see Madonna.
Public order will depend on the law of the land which can be changed to restrict protest, as we have seen.
I think what you may be thinking of is respect to fellow citizens, which is a different matter.
Personally i think the lads did a top job at 'Al Gore's Fundraiser' after all, a political protest at a political fundraiser should not cause a problem. They did not go along to cause a scene - i was invited, but had a prior engagement and can assure you the plan was maximum exposure through bannering. As we have also done in Ipswich.
The fact that some of us (Ian and Johnny in particular) get up off their arses and actually do something should be applauded, not slated.
I guess thats the difference between activism and sitting behind a monitor discussing it. I would suggest more people start doing rather than watching while we still can!
Absolutely superb situationist type prank. Well done Ian from Peterborough - my old stomping ground.
This type of thing is far more effective than walking down the high street with a frikkin placard or standing aimlessly outside the house of uncommons where you just get ignored.
We went thru a phase in the mid 90s of hijacking train station and onboard train tannoys. They used to be unlocked then - now I see they use allan keys or something. Most of this was when we were demo-ing against the 1993/4 Criminal Justice bill against gathering for dance events/festivals.
Actually getting hold of a tannoy in a public place gives you the chance to be highly suggestive - I don't know if anyone saw the Derren Brown show where he did MASS HYPNOTICS on shoppers and got them all to
"Roll up roll up... come RIGHT ARM UP!!"
..and they did - all of them. This is also what the KLF did in certain situations. Do you know what the most responded to phrase is in stress conditions?
"Everybody lie down on the floor and keep calm" - according to KLF pranks this actually works in 90% of people if you create the conditions. So it's worth adding a bit of humour to the event by opening up with some sort of line like that - "This is a reality malfunction... - do not adjust your mind..." or whatever.
Top marks for the culture jam. More stuff like this would help activism in any form generally.
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 645 Location: UK Midlands
Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject:
flamesong wrote:
Sorry, but time is short and maybe it should be rammed down peoples' throats.
Totally agree FS. People forget the clock is taking and this is an excuse for inaction or "let it be..." which I've always thought was a stupid way to view the whirrled.
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My only criticism is that they failed to capture the act effectively on video. Watching it I was like a purple faced studio director screaming, 'lift the fücking camera!'
Same on supermarket vid to an extent - the point is you stand zero chance of getting into any serious trouble for doing something like those vids/demos if you do them right. If you are going to the trouble of setting them up then you may as well be brave and go get in the faces of the people involved when it gets rumbled - that's half the fun.
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 645 Location: UK Midlands
Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject:
deep thinker wrote:
being fairly new to the idea that sept 11 was an inside job myself i think its vitaly important to educate myself on these matters first before i start trying to convince the public.
"I guess thats the difference between activism and sitting behind a monitor discussing it. I would suggest more people start doing rather than watching "
your point is absolutely correct up to an extent.
however "sitting behind a monitor" also has its place, would you not agree?
Hi and welcome Deepthinker
As this relates to what we're discussing, I'll add a few points.
Life is always a balance innit. I think the internet is perhaps the one thing that has broken the MIC camels' back - they were not expecting it. So yes of course research and forums via the net are a core part of everything we do. You can actually change more people's mind online via a video or webpage than you can by the older methods of lobbying parliament or door to door talking etc.
I think the problems start from what I've seen over the years doing various sorts of activism on and offline, when people mistake their bits of net research for the totality. IE: they begin to 100% believe that the net or a forum represents a singular way of interacting with the world and actually stop trying other avenues and communication methods.
As useful as forums are - it seems people are increasingly just using them to get their data and think that in their to and fro'ing of posts they somehow educate themselves and others. Which you kind of so of course - it just needs other mechansims as well.
Hi,
I think that it is a great way to make people curious and to actually look into what the banner was saying... some peeps on here I'm afraid to say hasn't and won't do anything to make people aware of 9/11 and alot of other issues we face at this time... That is upto them,,, individual choice!!
Same as it was Ians and Johns choice to go to Live Earth and take a banner with 9/11 inside job on it... why criticise someone for actually doing something..
There isn't enough activisim in my oppinon and we should congragulate people who actually get out and take the message to the masses...
What is wrong with organising a mass banner day, when we have a day when everyone goes through their town with banners and leafleting and handing out DVD's...
I personally don't see the point of just having meetings once a week and never organising even so much as leafleting in their town and talking to people about 9/11... I found that with a group of you it is much easier to approach people,, There are people who do this and good on ya!!
If we never get out and actually talk to people whats the point???
instead of expecting people to visit the forum/web for info off their own backs... we need to get out there as a 9/11 Truth Group.. and plant the seeds of doubt in peoples minds, even if it makes them think there is something not quite right about 9/11...
WELL DONE TO BOTH IAN AND JOHN again people do what they feel is right... maybe we should think about ourselfs been in London on Saturday.. inside and out of the stadium.... imagine the impact it would have had as a large group.... emmmm me thinks an opportunity missed... apart from of course Ian and John
Love, Care and Freedom
Di _________________ REVOLUTION OR REVELATION? For years they have been studying us. The time has come for us to study them!
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